Quote from: RPGPunditMy blog entry about this subject.

RPGPundit

I'm not entirely sure what that adds to the discussion, except to highlight your obvious hatred for Bruce Baugh.

I don't think its really true to the spirit of the material if you wangle it to fit current social and political mores. Its more fun to 'go with the cheese' or play in the context of the cheese. Could always have gone with the Lesploitation pulps I suppose

My approach would have been to go with a modern updating of the pulp ideas, as with Ellis' work for Apparat (Simon Spector, Frank Ironwine, Quit City, Angel Stomp Future etc).

So is the problem here that a supplement concerning discrimination is being written by some white middle class american males, or that a supplement on issues of discrimination is being produced for a game whose overriding ethos is one of hope and tenacity?

'cause you'll forgive me if I can't see anything wrong with either.  

Its a game people -  but that doesn't mean we can't approach real world issues through our hobby.

Jeez, umm, that's....great.
Really.
Exactly the sourcebook we needed.

Where's my slavery handbook for all those Western RPGs? Exalted's "Blinded Masseuse, Bound Concubine" sourcebook? Maybe the "Horrific Punishments of the Roman Arena" guide?
Oi.

You know, Stumpy's even got a point - except I don't see a lot about hope in the ad copy. Save a president or two with your unbelievable talents, and society just goes "Eh!" and resumes oppressing the black man. Now, if it's chock-full of "So your gay Mexican sharpshooter just stopped Doctor Apocalypse from burning the Eastern Seaboard to cinders - maybe he really does get a parade" style advice, things about these amazing individuals changing the world because they fucking show -everybody- that these marvels cross all human boundaries....that's groovy. That's a good product. "Here's all the places black people can't go in the 20's", less so.

I do think you can write material about this that works, and moreover is actually playable and fun. I've seen a piece of it done well by Brand; on Story-Games, he wrote a SotC prep piece that was pretty sweet, presenting three brothers of Indian royalty, growing up amidst the World Wars and the Partition. The brothers presented interesting (if perhaps epic) slices of the country's culture in a way that was interesting without being patronizing. Moreover: it was very two-fisted. There was good stuff built in about preserving old India vs building new India, but it was also clear that any exploration of this subject would happen alongside our square-jawed heroes wrestling Zombie-Lenin to the ground, destroying the WereRats of Uttar Pradesh, punching Churchill in the crotch, etc. I knew that I could definitely play these guys in a pulp matter.

If you guys don't have an affinity for the writer on this one, no matter: I'm sure you could come up with good pulp hooks involving non-traditional PCs. The idea is still sound to me.

@DevP: I think the issue is that cool games like that can already be created with SotC.  Your example also focuses on the way those characters are interesting and awesome rather than the ways they're discriminated against -- which is what comes across as a major part of the new supplement.

Non-traditional Pulp heroes is a VERY cool idea.  An entire book focusing on the ways they're oppressed... not so much.

Quote from: The Evil DMMexican's you get Cinco de Mayo (whatever that is)...

A reason to sell Corona, Modelo and Dos Equis.  ¡Ajúa!

Quote from: StuartNon-traditional Pulp heroes is a VERY cool idea.  An entire book focusing on the ways they're oppressed... not so much.

A book about cool things from different cultures' traditions, histories, mythologies, etc. to co-opt for your pulp game -- that'd rawk.

CONFIDENTIAL TO W.K.: Thanks, dude, but I'm married.  Don't have the surgery.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Heh heh heh.  Elves and Mexicans.

Done:



:keke:

Framing pulp in terms of other cultures and places: Good.

Framing pulp in terms of how The Man oppresses women, minorities, and commies: Better left to pamphlets.

(Warning - long and rambling, but there's a point to it)

When I wrote the original proposal for YotZ: Havens, I suggested a chapter on post-Rising sexual relationships, jokingly provisionally titled "The 'South Pacific' Problem"

(as in "One thing we ain't got/We. Ain't. Got. Dames!/There ain't nothing like a dame...")

Tim told me to go with it, but I kept on putting it off and putting it off, hoping that Tim would have chance to write it instead.  After all, what the hell do I know about relationships? I've had one (1) serious girlfriend, lost my virginity at the age of twenty-mumble and, reader, I married her.  Technically speaking, I've never been on a date

But I knew it needed to be done.  If you've read our stuff on the concepts behind Year of the Zombie, you'll know we wanted to give people a taste of what really happens when society collapses.  This meant that the book on living in post-Rising communities needed to include something about sexual relationships in a environment where women are in short supply

So I did my research.  Read everything I could find about Abu Grabass, Tailhook, Deepcutt and the other military sex scandals.  Read my wife's notes from the one semester she did on "Womens Studies" and and re-read "The Whole Woman" and a couple of other feminist texts to try and put it all into context.  Re-read the Diaries of Becka, focusing on the female characters.  I knew that Heather would have put Tim right if he'd got them wrong, so I had some confidence in his characterisation

Then I started writing and the chapter exploded.  A short paragraph on homosexuality spun off into it's own chapter.  I'd been meaning to do pregnancy rules anyway, but they became another chapter starting with [con|contra]ception and leading all the way to adolescence.  As I'd covered "hatches" and "matches" then "dispatches" needed a chapter.  But that's irrelevant

What it all needed was vetting.  My wife took a look first.  I quickly pointed out that one particular concept was Tim's idea and not mine.  She suggested I might be the victim of a lesbian fatwa (for an unrelated section) so I beefed up that lesbians (pun intended)

After that I sent some copies to some friends (one of whom is a gay man, another who is a lesbian) for feedback.  Again, I needed to point out that the same concept was Tim's idea and not mine.  The gay man complained that I was being too PC and that homosexuals can be as abusive as hetrosexuals and the lesbian gave me a hard stare before saying "Yeah.  Fair comment."  After that, it went to Tim and Heather, two people who've spent a lot of time in an emotionally charged environment where there was a seriously unbalanced sex ratio (the US Army).  Tim changed very little of my text ( ) but we'll see what the rest of the world thinks when it finally gets released

And art direction? I've put in a request for Frankie (iconic lesbian), done as Norman Rockwell's "Rosie the Riveter", with a SAW replacing the rivet gun

My point is, if Bruce did his research properly and got appropriate feedback, the fact he's a honky shouldn't make a difference

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonMy point is, if Bruce did his research properly and got appropriate feedback, the fact he's a honky shouldn't make a difference

Yeah. This is a good point Hastur.

I don't have very much to add to this discussion, because reading some of the comments so far, all I think I would be doing is spending my time making a case for or defending the concept of diversity in the Pulp genre.

Regards,
David R

I had a white hippy geek teacher for African American Studies in high school and he did a fine job, IMO. :confused:

Also, if he's looked to Warren Ellis's and Alan Moore's treatment of the Pulps ("League...", the "Top Ten" prequel and parts of "Planetary" in particular) for how to include and treat racially and sexually charged material without getting preachy, then it'll rock

Quote from: JongWKDone:



:keke:

That's what I was thinking. If my quote about the weed-wacker hasn't been uttered at a table I've been at it should have been. You'll find a lot of women/race/metatype mix-ups curveballs in that game. And some tired old stereotypes too.

P.S.  I will say though that, inspite of my insistance on not taking the SR setting seriously, sometimes how Orks and Trolls are used as racial stereotype placeholders to have a coded discussion that puts a thin venere over RL rasism does tweak me the wrong way.