Doc Whitebread paced his penthouse apartment like a caged tiger, his hammer-like fists clenching and unclenching white knuckled as his mighty brain wrestled with the problem that had presented itself. Below him the city heaved, something had stirred up the spics, wops, niggers, yids, chinks, bogtrotters, shirtlifters, beanflickers and even, heaven forfend, the womenfolk into a frenzy. Cars were being overturned, shops windows smashed and the battlecries were confusing. Even the Doc's mighty trained brain, the equal of any boffin, couldn't fathom the meaning behind 'Patriarchy' or 'Positive Discrimination'.

His mighty Aryan brain turned, mental cogs and gears slid into place and the penny dropped.

"The Yellow Claw!"

The Doc slammed one muscular hand into the other and hollered for his faithful manservant.

"Blackie!"

The dutiful negro hurried in, always ready for anything the Doc might require.

"Yassum Massa Whitebread Suh?"

The Doc whirled upon his heel, eyes ablaze with triumph as they always were when he solved a problem.

"Activate the Televisor! Locate The Yellow Claw. The nefarious nip has gone too far this time, its bad enough when he stirs up the slants but he's really gone beyond this time. Still, as a respected foe he has a twisted kind of honour, we'll give the Chinee Charlatan an opportunity to surrender peacefully before we resort to violence."

Blackie slid open the mahogony partition and threw the switch. Power leapt from the mighty atomic generators in the building's basement. The very power of the atom, harnessed through white man's science and channeled into the powerful apparatus of the Doc's devising. Slowly an image swam into view, The Yellow Claw, the saffron satan himself!

"The jig is up Claw!" Hollered the Doc, folding his mighty thewed arms across his barrel chest. "I'm onto your game. Call off your mind control games and return the city to peace or I will shut you down for good!"

The slant-eyed slanderer turned into the view of the Televisor, narrowing his already slitted eyes.

"Ah so, Doctor Whitebread, we meet again - but I fear your calculations are incorrect for, you see, the current ruckus is not one of my making. My hands, this time, are innocent."

The Doc's brows knitted in furious thought. "You may be many things Claw, but you don't lie to a man you respect, but I am never wrong. Unless..."

"Unless your opponent is your equal." The yellow-skinned devil stroked his beard with his long-nailed fingers.

"But that would mean..."

"Yes. Your nemesis in this instance must be another gwai-lo."

The signal swam, interference crackling and hissing, a valve exploding in the apparatus as an overriding signal cut in over the Televisor. Static hissed and The Yellow Claw vanished from view to be replaced by something new, something sinister.

"Doc Whitebread, we meet at last, maaan." Wheezed the pale and porcine figure obscuring the view of the Televisor. "It took longer than even I had anticipated for your... pedestrian... intellect to determine the true cause of the troubles, crazy man, just crazy." The plump figure snapped his fingers and adjusted his beret.

The Doc was unphased.

"Who are you? What are you about? Why are you doing this?" The Doc jabbed a masculine finger at the quivering black-clad beatnik.

"Why? Because your world is a filthy racist one of oppression and hatred! Did you pause even once to consider the feelings of the Lizard Men of Lemuria before you gunned them down for being different? Before you condemned the Amazons of Venus for their sapphic ways did you not think that it was your own definition of 'normalcy' which was at fault? How many spear-wielding natives have you dispatched with your turbopistols over the years without a thought  for the families left behind?"

"You're INSANE!" Shouted the Doc, on the verge of losing his temper.

"No, I am Professor Boar and you are living in my world now!"

The Televisor signal gave out, echoing with the blubbery bloater's final mocking laugh...

NEXT EPISODE: BEWARE THE BILIOUS BAT-DONG!

(NB: I don't actually bear BB or the SotC people any ill will whatsoever, this has just been rattling around in my head since this whole argument started because of the charicature's on all sides.)

Quote from: jgantsPerhaps.  But you are the one who said that using "big, hulking, apelike brutes" was fine until you add "black" into the equation.

I think the problem is putting "black" and "apelike" together.  Thinking about it some more, I think "apelike" is probably the more problematic of the two words, though I could see it being used for opponents who are not, in fact, human or not entirely human.  

Quote from: jgantsIf you just want to remove the word  "apelike" from the description of any person (because of the subtext of minorities being regarded as subhuman) then fine.  I assume "big, hulking, black brutes" is acceptible then?

I'd find that more acceptable, personally.  That black no longer leads the description seems to help, too.

Quote from: jgantsI am aware that racism and ignorance (as well as bizarre sports fanaticism) still exist.

The point is not that racism and ignorance still exist.  The point is the particular slur being used and it's comparison to the phrase in question.

Quote from: jgantsI agree that its redundant and doesn't need to be explicitly said.  On the other hand, I don't think that by including it a phrase magically becomes racist.

I think that it sounds bad.  As I said in another thread, where I posted a link to an essay discussing Robert E. Howard's racism, I don't toss that label around lightly, so I wouldn't assume the person using it is racist or intends it to be racist.  But I think it sounds really bad and I can sure see it being taken that way.

Quote from: jgantsLike I said, that's fine with me.  But I think some people are going to be offended as long as you include any kind of "natives" in your pulp game, regardless of the words you use to describe them.

Correct.  But I think "apelike" is probably the most problematic word in that phrase and the one most likely to get you into trouble if used in a description of any "native" group, because it implies "less than fully human".  That's why I suggested dropping that particular words might be even better.

Ha!  That's good stuff, GRIM!  

Two things leap to mind:

1. The idea of a pulp villain whipping the city into a frenzy with mind control is a good one, and I'm'a yoink it.

2. I looked up what "bogtrotter" means, and I'm sad that it's a slur becuase I think that's a dang funny word.

Quote from: John Morrow

Quote from: jhkimHowever, in the 1920s there was a very different split.  There were no established communist regimes or history of horrific abuses.  Indeed, the social programs that are common throughout the first world (i.e. Europe, Canada, and even the U.S.) are somewhere in between the communist and anti-communist positions of the twenties.  I can easily see playing a heroic communist of the twenties, even though I do not agree with their vision.

As GMSkarka pointed out, the pulps extend into the 30s and WW2, by which point there were certainly some horrific abuses.  In fact, Stalin was for Hitler before he was against him.

Again, you seem to be inventing objections out of your imagination based on what the supplement might be or could be, rather than what is actually said.  Yes, there was pulp fiction in the forties, the fifties, and later decades.  However, Spirit of the Century is set in the twenties.  

Quote from: John Morrow

Quote from: jhkimPersonally, I pictured someone who was attractive and also muscular.  cf. my friend Lee's excellent send-up of comic illustrations.

Which woman are you talking about?  I'm asking about "ultra-musclewoman".

Who do you think I'm talking about when I refer to a muscular woman?  Yes, I'm talking about the first example of a woman scientist who super-charged her muscles.  I pictured a pulp hero -- like a female version of Alan Moore's Tom Strong, with a a winsome face and rippling muscles.  

Yes, I realize that in reality the strongest people are overweight and not particularly attractive, but this is the pulps.  When you hear about a pulp hero who's the strongest man in the world, do you picture a fat guy with a big neck and puffy cheeks?  

Quote from: John Morrow

Quote from: jhkimBut more generally, I note that there have been two contradictory reactions against New Horizons.  On the one hand, some people complained that it would be an alternate history which isn't true to the historical reality and thus the true pulps of the times.  On the other hand, other people complained that it isn't sufficiently escapist and thus isn't true to the spirit of the pulps.

I think it's possible to be sufficiently escapist and capture the spirit of the pulps while acknowledging the problems of the period so long as it's done with a light touch, not a heavy hand.  Again, I offer the episode "Legends" from the Justice League animates series as a possible way to pull that off, though that may be too light for a lot of people.  But anything heavier and I do think you'll start spoiling the escapism for people.

Eh.  Particularly when it comes to pulps, I'm not interested in a light touch.  I prefer being blatant and up-front with what I'm doing.  The Marstons' Wonder Woman comics from the forties are an example.  There are frequently sexists who appear, and Wonder Woman shows them up but quick with massive strength and a sarcastic quip.  (There are plenty of other features from this that I wouldn't use, but the style of handling sexism is what I'm thinking of.)  

While pulps and superheroes are different, I think the spirit of the pulps is to have over-the-top characters who face larger-than-life problems.  I'll leave the light touch to be used by those with more delicate sensibilities, and in my games I'd have Bold Heroes who Smash Oppression, and spread Truth, Justice, and Equality!

Quote from: jhkimAgain, you seem to be inventing objections out of your imagination based on what the supplement might be or could be, rather than what is actually said.  Yes, there was pulp fiction in the forties, the fifties, and later decades.  However, Spirit of the Century is set in the twenties.

Fair enough.  I suppose there is some opportunity in there for Communist heroes of noble intent to takes sides in the struggle for power between Stalin and Trotsky, perhaps averting some of those later problems.

Quote from: jhkimWho do you think I'm talking about when I refer to a muscular woman?  Yes, I'm talking about the first example of a woman scientist who super-charged her muscles.

No, I meant in the art on the page you offered.  

Quote from: jhkimYes, I realize that in reality the strongest people are overweight and not particularly attractive, but this is the pulps.  When you hear about a pulp hero who's the strongest man in the world, do you picture a fat guy with a big neck and puffy cheeks?

I might picture a large brutish guy who isn't particularly sexy.  Did you actually look at the original artwork and the modified artwork on the page you linked to carefully?  Or actually read the commentary by the author?  I did and it's fairly interesting.  The author talks about deciding how attractive to make the very strong woman in particular, and why it matters with respect to sexism.  You're the one that posted the link to that page, so I shouldn't have to be telling you this.

And remember, this is not just the pulps but a supplement about groups treated badly by society.

Quote from: jhkimEh.  Particularly when it comes to pulps, I'm not interested in a light touch.  I prefer being blatant and up-front with what I'm doing.  The Marstons' Wonder Woman comics from the forties are an example.  There are frequently sexists who appear, and Wonder Woman shows them up but quick with massive strength and a sarcastic quip.  (There are plenty of other features from this that I wouldn't use, but the style of handling sexism is what I'm thinking of.)

Well, I think that sort of thing is fine, too, and not exactly what I'm talking about.  It has to do with handling how to react to people from the period who are otherwise admirable and heroic wind up spouting opinions that are sexist or mildly racist.  For example, an admired figure might feel obliged to come to the defense of the honor of a woman, even if she's the world's strongest person and can handle herself, or (to use an example from that Justice League episode) might tell a black character that they are a credit to their people.  That sort of things does an excellent job of illustrating pervasive sexism and racism without necessarily warranting a pop in the mouth or a sarcastic quip (though there were a few of them in the Justice League episode).

Quote from: jhkimWhile pulps and superheroes are different, I think the spirit of the pulps is to have over-the-top characters who face larger-than-life problems.  I'll leave the light touch to be used by those with more delicate sensibilities, and in my games I'd have Bold Heroes who Smash Oppression, and spread Truth, Justice, and Equality!

Well, now I think you are making assumptions about the supplement.  Is it going to be about heroes from oppressed groups who manage to be pulp heroes and have pulp adventures within a world that doesn't always welcome or respect them or is it about heroes from oppressed groups who fight the bigotry of society because those are two very different types of games.  If the goal is to fight sexism, racism, and homophobia, then I agree that those issues should be over the top, but I suspect it will limit not only the appeal of the supplement but it's educational value.  It will basically be a butt-kicker supplement for people who feel oppressed.  

More useful, in my opinion, would be a supplement about pulp heroes doing normal pulp hero stuff that just happen to be from oppressed groups, with the game illustrating the indignities that they suffer and so forth.  Punching out hoards of cartoon Klansmen doesn't teach a person as much about racism, in my opinion, as the black hero who rescues a man falling from a building only to be called "boy" or have the guy refuse to shake his hand does.  And from the examples we've seen so far, it sounds more like it's going to focus on the barriers and indignities than on punching out everyone in the 1920s who dares say something racist, sexist, or homophobic.

Quote from: John MorrowIt has to do with handling how to react to people from the period who are otherwise admirable and heroic wind up spouting opinions that are sexist or mildly racist.  For example, an admired figure might feel obliged to come to the defense of the honor of a woman, even if she's the world's strongest person and can handle herself, or (to use an example from that Justice League episode) might tell a black character that they are a credit to their people.  That sort of things does an excellent job of illustrating pervasive sexism and racism without necessarily warranting a pop in the mouth or a sarcastic quip (though there were a few of them in the Justice League episode).

Yeah, it's an excellent episode (link for those of you who don't know what we're talking about

Quote from: John MorrowPunching out hoards of cartoon Klansmen doesn't teach a person as much about racism, in my opinion, as the black hero who rescues a man falling from a building only to be called "boy" or have the guy refuse to shake his hand does.

I'm not sure.  This is still remembered, where Will Eisner taking the second approach in "The Spirit" is less well-remembered

Interestingly, I don't think I need a game supplement to teach me about racism, as I already understand and dislike it.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonI'm not sure.  This is still remembered, where Will Eisner taking the second approach in "The Spirit" is less well-remembered

Fair enough, and I suppose that could still be the case for many people.  But we live in an age where the Klansman as foil to be beaten up or humiliated is a pretty common image in movies but where plenty of white people still don't normally notice a DWB (Driving While Black/Brown) police stop or experience what it's like to be a black main trying to hail a cab in New York City, even today.

ADDED:  I also highly recommend watching that Justice League episode before reading the spoilers.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Interestingly, I don't think I need a game supplement to teach me about racism, as I already understand and dislike it.

And if everyone were like you in that regard, there would probably be a lot less racism in the world.

Quote from: John MorrowFair enough, and I suppose that could still be the case for many people.  But we live in an age where the Klansman as foil to be beaten up or humiliated is a pretty common image in movies but where plenty of white people still don't normally notice a DWB (Driving While Black/Brown) police stop or experience what it's like to be a black main trying to hail a cab in New York City, even today.

ADDED:  I also highly recommend watching that Justice League episode before reading the spoilers.

Sadly, human nature is such that it tends to find the cartoonish villain an easier target than the truth.

Focusing on outlandish examples like the Klan or the Nazis lets one ignore the more subtle effects of racism in day to day life, and even raises the bar of what can be called a "racist" in the culture.

Just as our Government focuses on psuedo-organizations like Al Qaeda as if they were some supervillain organization out of a Bond movie, because it means that by selling that image, they can conveniently sidestep the much more complex and inconvenient reality of terrorism.

Quote from: John Morrow(Re: this LJ post ) Did you actually look at the original artwork and the modified artwork on the page you linked to carefully?  Or actually read the commentary by the author?  I did and it's fairly interesting.  The author talks about deciding how attractive to make the very strong woman in particular, and why it matters with respect to sexism.  You're the one that posted the link to that page, so I shouldn't have to be telling you this.

Yes I did read it -- that's why I cited it.  The author is in a regular tabletop gaming group with me here in SF.  I'm glad you liked it.  I found it quite interesting myself.  

Quote from: John MorrowWell, I think that sort of thing is fine, too, and not exactly what I'm talking about.  It has to do with handling how to react to people from the period who are otherwise admirable and heroic wind up spouting opinions that are sexist or mildly racist.  For example, an admired figure might feel obliged to come to the defense of the honor of a woman, even if she's the world's strongest person and can handle herself, or (to use an example from that Justice League episode) might tell a black character that they are a credit to their people.  That sort of things does an excellent job of illustrating pervasive sexism and racism without necessarily warranting a pop in the mouth or a sarcastic quip (though there were a few of them in the Justice League episode).

I haven't seen the Justice League episode, so I can't really comment on it.  From the brief plot summary, it sounds like a bunch of mainly white male heroes from the Golden Age save the world by sacrificing themselves -- though along the way their minor racism and sexism are brought to light.  Is that a fair characterization?  

That sounds like one approach, but hardly the only one to handling issues of oppressed groups.  

Quote from: John MorrowWell, now I think you are making assumptions about the supplement.  Is it going to be about heroes from oppressed groups who manage to be pulp heroes and have pulp adventures within a world that doesn't always welcome or respect them or is it about heroes from oppressed groups who fight the bigotry of society because those are two very different types of games.  If the goal is to fight sexism, racism, and homophobia, then I agree that those issues should be over the top, but I suspect it will limit not only the appeal of the supplement but it's educational value.  It will basically be a butt-kicker supplement for people who feel oppressed.

More useful, in my opinion, would be a supplement about pulp heroes doing normal pulp hero stuff that just happen to be from oppressed groups, with the game illustrating the indignities that they suffer and so forth.

I don't see that the two can't mix, and the supplement covers them both.   There's no reason I can see why there needs to be two different supplements -- one about oppressed groups only fighting non-racist/etc. villains, and one about the same heroes only fighting racist/etc. villains.

If I'm playing a Chinese, it sounds more fun to me to at least occaisionally punch some racists in the mouth than to suffer indignities without having recourse.  Further, if I had an educational goal about the history of the twenties, I'd want to cover not just oppression of the period, but many of the people who fought against oppression and some of their successes.

Quote from: jhkimYes I did read it -- that's why I cited it.  The author is in a regular tabletop gaming group with me here in SF.  I'm glad you liked it.  I found it quite interesting myself.

The reason why I asked if you've read it is that it makes the point I was trying to make and you seem to be trying to excuse or evade:

"The weirdest thing was trying to draw a female superhero you wouldn't want to fuck. Take a look at the original picture of Trenin. No way is that guy designed to be a guy anyone would want to fuck. Male superheroes don't have to be. Who would want to fuck The Thing or The Hulk? But all female superheroes have to be fuckable at all times in all poses. And when I say female superheroes, I mean pretty much every woman in comics except maybe for Aunt May."

"And I don't think I actually got it right. I think Trena is still a little too hot. It was tricky because I wanted to make her clearly still a woman while being way more bulked-up than women get."

Apply your own argument about attractiveness in the pulps to this argument about superhero comics and see if it sticks.  I don't think it does.

Quote from: jhkimI haven't seen the Justice League episode, so I can't really comment on it.  From the brief plot summary, it sounds like a bunch of mainly white male heroes from the Golden Age save the world by sacrificing themselves -- though along the way their minor racism and sexism are brought to light.  Is that a fair characterization?

It's a fair summary, but it misses the meaning those heroes and their loss had for the members of the Justice League who weren't white or male.  A summary isn't going to do it justice.

Quote from: jhkimThat sounds like one approach, but hardly the only one to handling issues of oppressed groups.

I never claimed it was the only one.

Quote from: jhkimI don't see that the two can't mix, and the supplement covers them both.   There's no reason I can see why there needs to be two different supplements -- one about oppressed groups only fighting non-racist/etc. villains, and one about the same heroes only fighting racist/etc. villains.

Fair enough, but do you really need a special supplement to tell a GM how to stand up some over-the-top racists for oppressed PCs to punch in the mouth?  Isn't that a no-brainer?  I'm not saying that their can't be butt-kicking but if that's the main focus, I think it would be a wasted opportunity.

Quote from: jhkimIf I'm playing a Chinese, it sounds more fun to me to at least occaisionally punch some racists in the mouth than to suffer indignities without having recourse.  Further, if I had an educational goal about the history of the twenties, I'd want to cover not just oppression of the period, but many of the people who fought against oppression and some of their successes.

Correct.  But society had racism and sexism top to bottom.  While punching them in the mouth is the appropriate response for an over-the-top Klansman super-villain, it's not an appropriate response for a lower-level and more realistic portrayal of racism such as, from Bruce's example, being asked to enter the restaurant through the back door.  Is that hero going to punch out the restaurant owner and threatened the patrons?

Quote from: John Morrow"The weirdest thing was trying to draw a female superhero you wouldn't want to fuck. Take a look at the original picture of Trenin. Male superheroes don't have to be. Who would want to fuck The Thing or The Hulk? But all female superheroes have to be fuckable at all times in all poses. And when I say female superheroes, I mean pretty much every woman in comics except maybe for Aunt May."

Apply your own argument about attractiveness in the pulps to this argument about superhero comics and see if it sticks.  I don't think it does.

This is a bit of a sidetrack, but I'll comment here in more length.  In my opinion, there is a difference between appearing fuckable and being attractive.  Tom Strong, for example, is not illustrated to be fuckable at all time in all poses.  However, he is not unattractive.  

I don't think that all women characters should be made attractive.  However, I said that when I read the description, I pictured a pulp hero like Tom Strong -- clean-cut and attractive but muscular.  

Quote from: John MorrowFair enough, but do you really need a special supplement to tell a GM how to stand up some over-the-top racists for oppressed PCs to punch in the mouth?  Isn't that a no-brainer?  I'm not saying that their can't be butt-kicking but if that's the main focus, I think it would be a wasted opportunity.

I don't think that butt-kicking action is a no-brainer.  First of all, if it was, then nearly all RPG books should be a whole lot shorter.  But I think that there is plenty of room for interesting material while kicking butt.  

There have been several complaints in this thread that you don't really need published material to have black, or chinese, or female characters.  While this is technically true, what this amounts to is having published material where nearly all of the characters are white males, not mentioning anything else -- and then saying that people can make up for themselves the rest.  

I have never observed anyone hear about a supplement of scenarios, NPCs, and campaign advice traditional pulp heroes and have them react "White males?  Well, isn't that a no-brainer?  Can't people make that up for themselves?"

Quote from: jhkimI have never observed anyone hear about a supplement of scenarios, NPCs, and campaign advice traditional pulp heroes and have them react "White males?  Well, isn't that a no-brainer?  Can't people make that up for themselves?"

I'd like to see the Vanilla Suburbia supplement written by a couple of inner-city black guys.  That ought to make people's brains fuse.

Quote from: jhkimI don't think that all women characters should be made attractive.  However, I said that when I read the description, I pictured a pulp hero like Tom Strong -- clean-cut and attractive but muscular.

And my point was that if tackling sexism is the goal, isn't the expectation that a woman be attractive to men in a way that men aren't required to be attractive a significant element of sexism?  Is that part of the point your friend is making there?  And while you are correct that I'm making assumptions about art and descriptions that we haven't seen, I'd be surprised if the character in question were not depicted as predictably good looking.

Quote from: jhkimI don't think that butt-kicking action is a no-brainer.  First of all, if it was, then nearly all RPG books should be a whole lot shorter.  But I think that there is plenty of room for interesting material while kicking butt.  

I assume there is already a lot of information on how to run a butt-kicking adventure in the core book.  Making the bad guys Klansmen for butt-kicking fun is not much more than a matter of putting hoods and robes on them and lighting a cross on fire.

Quote from: jhkimThere have been several complaints in this thread that you don't really need published material to have black, or chinese, or female characters.  While this is technically true, what this amounts to is having published material where nearly all of the characters are white males, not mentioning anything else -- and then saying that people can make up for themselves the rest.

I'm not claiming that there shouldn't be information on playing non-traditional characters.  I'm claiming that making it primarily about butt-kicking against stereotypical bigots, which possibly quite cathartic, isn't very imaginative nor informative.  I'd rather see a more down-to-Earth
focus.

Quote from: jhkimI have never observed anyone hear about a supplement of scenarios, NPCs, and campaign advice traditional pulp heroes and have them react "White males?  Well, isn't that a no-brainer?  Can't people make that up for themselves?"

Of course they can.  If you remove the art and names from the sample characters, I don't think anyone would have much trouble envisioning the various character types in SotC or most other games as white males.  Nor do you see people complaining about the shortage of white males in Sengoku or Nyambe.  But I think you know why that is as well as I do.

ADDED:  Is the goal of the supplement to tell players who are black, female, gay, Chinese, or Communist how to play characters they can identify with or is the purpose to tell white males how to play black, female, gay, Chinese, or Communist characters?