Quote from: CalithenaIf the stereotypes, etc. means it's only escapism for white heterosexual males, then we need to find a way to write pulp that's good escapism for adventure minded white-females, gay men, whatever. We need equal opportunity escapism!

Well, once upon a time, that was an idea:

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!, in Post #26 of this thread...If you think it's fun to play a Mexican supersoldier patriot trick-shooter in 1930s America and not worry about the racism and the hassles and the ugly, ugly truth...well, it's a fantasy, after all.

Quote from: One Horse TownAnd of course the appeal of communism in poorer countries is the reverse of this; "I used to be a capatalist, but then i found out that if you divided all of the money equally, everyone would have $50. I had $25 at the time, so i stopped being a capatalist."

Yes, exactly my point.

But the key to actually increasing everyone's standard of living is to realize that there are better ways to get that second $25 than taking it from someone else because once you take it from them. they aren't going to keep earning an extra $25 to give to you again and again.

Quote from: John MorrowYes, exactly my point.

But the key to actually increasing everyone's standard of living is to realize that there are better ways to get that second $25 than taking it from someone else because once you take it from them.

Yep, by worldwide fair trade for a start...But that's a conversation for elsewhere, i think.

Quote from: John MorrowDid they succeed in driving the Japanese out?

No. But they played a significant role in the process.

 

QuoteHow did they behave toward their fellow countrymen after the war?

Nobody will ever know (It would have been interesting because of the three different ethnic groups in the country). After the Japanese left, they turned their attention towards the British and soon after, the newly formed (British backed) local government. The resulting insurgency was bloody, as is to be expected.

QuoteWould you want them to be in charge of Malaya today?

No but what's your point. I know many folks who identify with communist ideals who are productive members of society. Much like folks who turn to religion sometimes their belief is sincere sometimes not.

I have yet to meet a Nazi who was a productive member of society. It's these (communist) ideals which have failed in practise that makes communists and Nazis different.

Edit: Very interesting article droog.

Regards,
David R

David, you might like to read Slavoj Zizek's article The Two Totalitarianisms.

Quote from: John MorrowA joke my friend's father used to tell (he was old enough to have fought in WW2):

"I used to be a Communist and then I found out that if you divided all of the money equally, everyone would have $50.  I had a $100 at the time, so I stopped being a communist."

Comparable to starving millions of its own citizens for political purposes?  Did you ever notice that Communist countries have to build walls to keep the people in and information out yet the United States has a problem with keeping people out and information in.  Why do you think that is?

My god, you're just FULL of pithy quotes, aren't you? It sounds like you're reciting dogma.

QuoteThe reason why Western democracy appeals to a vast segment of the world is that it actually seems to work pretty well, unlike Communism.

The experiences of many other parts of the world, in particularly the non-developed ones, would tend to disagree with you on that, as often your "success" depends on their brutal exploitation. Go ask Bolivians who had an American Multinational privatize rainwater and make it illegal for the poor to collect rain in buckets without paying for it, leaving them the alternative of either going to jail or dying of thirst, whether they're all so hot on Evo Morales now because of their desire to be "eeevil" or if its that, for some reason, western capitalism has lost its appeal.  Then try to explain to them how really western capitalist democracy is a good thing, because the fact that they would have to pay Halliburton for their rainwater-in-a-bucket means that you in the United States get to pay 2 cents less for your gas per gallon in a Fantastic Butterfly Effect of Inhuman Crapulence. See how well they think your western capitalist democracy "works" after that.

I mean seriously, you know when it comes down to it I'm one of the biggest advocates of western democracy that there is, right? And not just in the stupid "churchill-quote" sense that I think its the best of the worst or something like that; no, I really think that Democracy is something granted to us directly by providence, the natural product of the combination of liberty, equality, and fraternity, that all men who believe in truth should be willing to spill their blood to defend, right?

So try to understand when I say that, to anyone who has really studied history, or (ESPECIALLY) to anyone who has actually spent any length of time outside the 1st world, what you are saying sounds incredibly ill-informed and naive.
I do not believe the best way to uphold democracy is to utterly demonize the alternatives. If you don't understand (or you patronizingly dismiss) the reasons why MILLIONS of people in latinamerica are fans of Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez, or why to those same millions (and more) Che Guevara is looked upon as a hero, someone to "be like" ("seremos como el Che" is a popular slogan around here), or even a kind of demigod (you'll find his image alongside images used for Santeria here), then you are not actually going to be doing a good job of promoting and defending democracy. Your dismissal of the other side will actually help to harm democracy.

The problem I think you seem to be having is an inability to distinguish between communism as an ideology and its specific application in the form of marxist-leninist totalitarianism (ie. from Soviet Russia).  No one is arguing that the USSR was a good thing, but in a global context in many parts of the world OUTSIDE The USSR, communists had often been the only people speaking up for the oppressed or fighting for the liberty of their people. They also had something to offer people, the vision of "creating the new man". And a vision of Liberty, the same vision that gave democracy its appeal in the 1st world. They see it as liberty from the parasites who get rich off their work (and remember, if you live in the first world, you get to live comfortably because of the misery and poverty of a dozen other human beings), liberty from dictatorships that protect the ruling class, or from democracies that never manage to change anything and limit opportunities to the oligarchs, and the liberty of opportunity, where their children will be allowed the same chances as any other child.

If you want to understand them, all you need to do is listen to their anthems.  And let me tell you, they definitely have the better music, at least in latinamerica. Uruguay is known as the birthplace of some of the truly great communist musicians, one of the chief of which is Daniel Viglietti.  Everything you need to know about why millions of people still buy into communism is explained in his songs, like one called "Gurisito":

"Niño mi niño vendras en primavera te traere... y aunque nazcas pobre te traigo tambien, se precisan niños para amanezer.
Niño, niñito, el hombrecito nuevo llegara... y mientras el crezca crecera tambien el lugar de todos, sera para bien!
Niño, mi niño tu niño y aquel niño todos van; rueda que te rueda hacia la vida nueva llegaran. Cada niño un poco, todos tomaran, de la misma leche y del mismo pan... y aunque nazcas pobre, te traere tambien, se precisan niños para amanecer, para amanecer"

"Child my child you'll come in the Spring, I'll bring you... [trans: the "spring" is a communist symbol, representing the the revolution]
And even though you were born poor, I'll bring you too; we need children to make the new dawn. [trans: the "dawn" is another symbolic term, like spring, to refer to post-communist society]
Child, little child, the new (communist) man will arrive.. and as he grows so will grow the place for all people, for the good!
Child, my child, your child, and that other child will all come; ring around the rosy toward the new life they will go. Every child their part, all of them will have, from the same milk and the same bread... and even if you're born poor, I'll bring you too; we need children to make the new dawn. "

In order to really understand the significance of a message like that, you have to try to imagine what it is to have seen children that DON'T get bread or milk, and that DON'T have a place, or a future, to be a part of their society, or any hope of any place in it other than as a permanent underclass.  Or, of course, if you are one of those people who actually has to worry about their kid having bread or milk to eat or drink, not to mention some kind of hope for some kind of a future.

And frankly, Americans have trouble getting that, because its really not the same if you watch it on TV, then if you have it right in front of your face, sitting in a restaurant and having a little 6 year old girl come up to your table, dirty and barefoot, begging you for a peso to feed her family, and when you say no because she's already the third kid that day who's asked, she asks you for a piece of bread from the basket of buns the waiter just put on your table in prelude for your steak dinner. You might not be so fucking glib talking about communism if you actually sat through something like that. You would, if you were human, feel like shit. If you were fair at all, you wouldn't blame them for hating you, and not believing in the ideology that you know ultimately leads to the better solution.

RPGPundit

Great post pundit. What i tried to get across in one sentence, you've given much more resonance.

For whatever it's worth, the United States attempted genocide of hundreds of peoples who previously lived on this land was far more effective in long-term effects and redistribution of land and power than the more regularly discussed genocide Germany attempted to inflict on the Jews.

Quote from: John Morrow

Quote from: jhkimThese seem to be based on your imagination of what the product might be like rather than Bruce's text.

To a large degree, you are absolutely correct.  And I'd love to revisit my expectations vs. the reality a year from now and be proved wrong.

Fair enough.  And you're right that I only commented on the first few examples, skipping the communists or probable East Asians.  

In recent replies, people are debating over the 20th century history of communism, which I think is not entirely on-topic for adventures of the twenties.  It is possible to role-play heroes who fight for their king without endorsing monarchy or denying the abuses and slaughters which it promoted.  Today, single-party communism has largely been repudiated, and certainly Stalin is justly reviled.   However, in the 1920s there was a very different split.  There were no established communist regimes or history of horrific abuses.  Indeed, the social programs that are common throughout the first world (i.e. Europe, Canada, and even the U.S.) are somewhere in between the communist and anti-communist positions of the twenties.  I can easily see playing a heroic communist of the twenties, even though I do not agree with their vision.  

Similarly, I don't think that having East Asian heroes means that you are ignoring all prejudices and faults of East Asians.  

Quote from: John Morrow

Quote from: jhkimThere's no mention of her looks one way or another.

Correct.  But when you read the write up, did you imagine a woman who looked like the Hulk or maybe even just plain and a bit heavy like a Rosie O'Donnell or someone slim and attractive?

Personally, I pictured someone who was attractive and also muscular.  cf. my friend Lee's excellent send-up of comic illustrations.  

But more generally, I note that there have been two contradictory reactions against New Horizons.  On the one hand, some people complained that it would be an alternate history which isn't true to the historical reality and thus the true pulps of the times.  On the other hand, other people complained that it isn't sufficiently escapist and thus isn't true to the spirit of the pulps.  

Personally, I would have preferred that there simply have been more balanced coverage in the basic game.  And I'm not particularly taken by the text that I've seen.  Still, the various minorities mentioned feature pretty regularly in my games and thus the concept has potential for me.

Quote from: John MorrowCorrect.  It's the description that they are "black, hulking, apelike brutes" that happens to hit a particular and offensive racial stereotype.

Hm, perhaps it didn't strike me earlier, reading it again that plainly is offensive actually.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!But are they human?  Are they mutants?  Are they monsters?  Are they Martians?  Is there a reason why the GM would say "black"?

See, this is where I get confused.  If the natives are hulking and ape-like, then that's OK to say.  But if they are also black, then it's not OK to say because that's a stereotype?  

Can they still be black if it's just unsaid?  Or do I need a different type of native for adventures in Africa?

So, in my pulp game it would be A-OK to have hulking, ape-like brute natives in the jungles of the Amazon, but not in the Congo?  Savages in the mountains of Borneo are cool, but not in Tanzania?  

I don't know, to me that sounds a lot more racist than using a description that includes "black" with "savage".

I admit, I have a hard time taking political correctness stuff seriously.  I grew up poor and white, but I wouldn't complain about the use of the "killer redneck inbred family" in a horror game.

Quote from: jgantsSee, this is where I get confused.  If the natives are hulking and ape-like, then that's OK to say.  But if they are also black, then it's not OK to say because that's a stereotype?  

Can they still be black if it's just unsaid?  Or do I need a different type of native for adventures in Africa?

So, in my pulp game it would be A-OK to have hulking, ape-like brute natives in the jungles of the Amazon, but not in the Congo?  Savages in the mountains of Borneo are cool, but not in Tanzania?  

I don't know, to me that sounds a lot more racist than using a description that includes "black" with "savage".

I admit, I have a hard time taking political correctness stuff seriously.  I grew up poor and white, but I wouldn't complain about the use of the "killer redneck inbred family" in a horror game.

Context matters, if we analyse then eventually we will probably be saying something offensive, if we don't then we may do so inadvertently.

I don't really have a good solution, you've just got to decide where your personal comfort levels are.

Quote from: RPGPunditMy god, you're just FULL of pithy quotes, aren't you? It sounds like you're reciting dogma.

And you, the guy quoting songs, doesn't?

Quote from: RPGPunditThe experiences of many other parts of the world, in particularly the non-developed ones, would tend to disagree with you on that, as often your "success" depends on their brutal exploitation.

Is there brutal exploitation of the Third World by American and multinational corporations?  Of course there is.  Does America's success depend on it?  Of course not.  Should that sort of exploitation be stopped?  Absolutely.  

You seem to think I don't understand why people are angry.  Of course I do.  But angry people have a long and distinguished history of picking bad leaders that sometimes even make them worse.  Does the horrible economy and the price that the rest of the world after WW1 explain the rise of Nazism?  Of course it does.  Does it excuse it or make it a good choice?  Of course it doesn't.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe problem I think you seem to be having is an inability to distinguish between communism as an ideology and its specific application in the form of marxist-leninist totalitarianism (ie. from Soviet Russia).  No one is arguing that the USSR was a good thing, but in a global context in many parts of the world OUTSIDE The USSR, communists had often been the only people speaking up for the oppressed or fighting for the liberty of their people.

I asked a fairly simple question and I'm still waiting for an answer:

"Can you give me one good real world example of Communism working well on a national scale that hasn't killed substantial numbers of its own people and/or has had to build walls or take other measure to keep people from leaving?"

Maybe they make descent freedom fighters (thought given the Spanish Civil War, even that's not a given) but can they actually run a country without running it into the ground?

Quote from: RPGPunditThey also had something to offer people, the vision of "creating the new man". And a vision of Liberty, the same vision that gave democracy its appeal in the 1st world. They see it as liberty from the parasites who get rich off their work (and remember, if you live in the first world, you get to live comfortably because of the misery and poverty of a dozen other human beings), liberty from dictatorships that protect the ruling class, or from democracies that never manage to change anything and limit opportunities to the oligarchs, and the liberty of opportunity, where their children will be allowed the same chances as any other child.

Yes, and as soon as they get into power and start confiscating the wealth of the "parasites who get rich off their work", what happens?  And doesn't that sound more than a little like the vision the Nazis were selling the German people if you make the villains Jews instead of multinational corporations?

Quote from: RPGPunditIn order to really understand the significance of a message like that, you have to try to imagine what it is to have seen children that DON'T get bread or milk, and that DON'T have a place, or a future, to be a part of their society, or any hope of any place in it other than as a permanent underclass.

And in order to understand my hatred of Communism, you have to try to imagine what it was like for two Chinese parents to trade children so they could have something to eat, to be a Ukrainian farmer given a choice between risking being shot for stealing food and starving without it, or a Cambodian facing execution because they wore glasses.  Need I go on?  Do you think that people cross barbed wire and risk their lives in leaky boats to escape Communist countries because they think they have a future there?  

Quote from: RPGPunditOr, of course, if you are one of those people who actually has to worry about their kid having bread or milk to eat or drink, not to mention some kind of hope for some kind of a future.

...says the Canadian living a nice upper-Middle Class lifestyle in Latin America.  

I'd love those people to have bread and milk and a future, but while Communism offers it, it fails to ever deliver on it.  And unlike you, I can separate the fantasy of ideals from the reality of dead bodies.  Yes, the goals of Communism are plenty noble, but they don't work, any more than basing a government on writing letters to Santa Claus for food would work.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd frankly, Americans have trouble getting that, because its really not the same if you watch it on TV, then if you have it right in front of your face, sitting in a restaurant and having a little 6 year old girl come up to your table, dirty and barefoot, begging you for a peso to feed her family, and when you say no because she's already the third kid that day who's asked, she asks you for a piece of bread from the basket of buns the waiter just put on your table in prelude for your steak dinner.

Do you think there aren't dirty beggars in the United States?  All I can say to your example is that if you think the 6 year-old little girl really needs that peso to feed her family, I'd like to know why you don't give it to her, even if she's the 20th kid to ask you that day.  And I think if you consider why you don't hand out a peso to everyone who asks, you'll understand why Communism doesn't work.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou might not be so fucking glib talking about communism if you actually sat through something like that. You would, if you were human, feel like shit. If you were fair at all, you wouldn't blame them for hating you, and not believing in the ideology that you know ultimately leads to the better solution.

I don't blame them for hating me nor do I blame them for believing in an ideology that doesn't work.  But wanting to believe something is true doesn't make it so.  I do understand what they want and I understand why they find Communism attractive, but Communism simply doesn't deliver, no matter how noble the goals.

Again, I'll ask, Can you give me one good real world example of Communism working well on a national scale that hasn't killed substantial numbers of its own people and/or has had to build walls or take other measure to keep people from leaving?

If you can't, then, no, I don't know that Communism is an ideology that ultimately leads to a better solution.  It looks like an ideology that leads to piles of dead bodies and a very low standard of living.

Quote from: jhkimIn recent replies, people are debating over the 20th century history of communism, which I think is not entirely on-topic for adventures of the twenties.  It is possible to role-play heroes who fight for their king without endorsing monarchy or denying the abuses and slaughters which it promoted.  Today, single-party communism has largely been repudiated, and certainly Stalin is justly reviled.

Since I'm on a Viglietti roll, from his "Cielito de tres por ocho":

"Cielito, cielo que si,
el Rey es hombre cualquiera,
y morir para que el viva,
¡la puta! es una zoncera!

Cielito cielo y mas cielo,
libertad, muerte al tirano!
o reconocernos libres,
o adiosito y sable en mano"

(note: a "cielito" ("little sky") is a type of song)

"Little sky, Sky oh yes,
The King is a regular human,
and to die so that he'll live,
holy fuck! what a foolishness!

Little sky, sky and more sky,
Liberty! Death to the Tyrant!
Either recognize us as free men,
Or I'm out with my sword in my hand!"

Man, I love that commie music...

RPGPundit


PS: As for single-party communism, its telling that for all their adulation of Fidel Castro, every single communist movement in latinamerica today (from Uruguay's very mild mostly socialist ruling party to the likes of Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales) have strictly followed in the footsteps of not Castro but of Salvador Allende, and are trying to create a socialist utopia within a democratic society.

Wow, great post there, Pundy!

Also, droog, Zizek admittedly does have his uses against the Morrows of this world.

Zizek & Pundy, what a combo. The new Hardt & Negri? Time will tell.