https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik2ewnRo24Q
as well as the 2E Ravenloft set
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e3SoGe2GiU
Oooh! I might get the Ravenloft set.
I might get both once I can afford them. It's the only way to get them at a reasonable price imo.
Spelljammer is tempting
Dark Sun, as well
Video review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d6eQYcMrlw
Direct link (no affiliate links): https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e
And Night Below:
Video review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh8-51HiWDE
Direct link (no affiliate links): https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17087/Night-Below-An-Underdark-Campaign-2e
Quote from: Pat on February 12, 2021, 01:32:24 AM
Dark Sun, as well
Video review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d6eQYcMrlw
Direct link (no affiliate links): https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e
And Night Below:
Video review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh8-51HiWDE
Direct link (no affiliate links): https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17087/Night-Below-An-Underdark-Campaign-2e
Oh nice! I ordered the Ravenloft print. I'll get the Dark Sun as well. I have an original boxed set, but it would be nice to have an extra copy that I'll feel less worried about ruining at the gaming table.
And no video, but Planescape!:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17267/Planescape-Campaign-Setting-2e
Only softcover, though.
Council of Wyrms:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17026/Campaign-Option-Council-of-Wyrms-Setting-2e
They've been busy.
QuoteWe (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end.
If they were wrong, why are you willing to profit off of them? Why are you willing to let drive thru RPG sell them?
You don't get a pass with a mealy disclaimer, you turds. Suck on the ethnic, racial and gender prejudices that you endorse and enable by putting money in your pockets for products you disavow.
(https://giantbomb1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_small/14/141402/2380577-2662941_grima_wormtongue_large_1_.jpg)
Bunch of Grima Wormtongues.
Because I have questions:
Is there a link between Spelljammer and Planescape, or are they two different cosmologies?
Also why is the PS softcover with 40 less pages just as expensive as the SJ hardcover?
And has anyone in the EU done print-on-demand from DTRPG since Brexit? How much extra taxes and fees should I expect?
Quote from: Godfather Punk on February 12, 2021, 03:26:56 AM
Because I have questions:
Is there a link between Spelljammer and Planescape, or are they two different cosmologies?
In the sense that a Spelljammer character could theoretically meet a Planescape character, yes.
Spelljammer is set in and between the prime material planes. Every crystal sphere contains a campaign world, and is seperated by a "phlogision" and Spelljammer ships can "sail" between them.
Planescape is set mostly in the outer and inner planes, with jaunts to prime planes via gates and portals.
So all set in the same grand cosmology, but different methods of travel, and focuses on where the adventures usually happen.
QuoteAlso why is the PS softcover with 40 less pages just as expensive as the SJ hardcover?
And has anyone in the EU done print-on-demand from DTRPG since Brexit? How much extra taxes and fees should I expect?
I don't know. Others will have to answer those questions.
Spelljammer and Planescape are radically different, but don't really overlap. So while they don't naturally go together, they don't directly conflict either.
Page counts are good predictors of price for classic D&D products on OBS, but there are all kinds of exceptions. I suspect pricing is based on what they think they can get, and the Planescape boxed set is probably the most expensive of the 2e box sets right now in the aftermarket, so they've priced it higher.
Thanks, Pat & Rat 8)
Honestly that annoying but more importantly hypocritical disclaimer bothered me at first. Now I don't think about it. It's either not buy and buy the same material at truly rip-off outrageous prices or get them cheaper. I choose the second.
Quote from: Pat on February 12, 2021, 03:47:29 AM
Page counts are good predictors of price for classic D&D products on OBS, but there are all kinds of exceptions. I suspect pricing is based on what they think they can get, and the Planescape boxed set is probably the most expensive of the 2e box sets right now in the aftermarket, so they've priced it higher.
Production costs may figure in as well--IIRC, Planescape included a lot more full-color art that Spelljammer, which drives up the printing costs.
I own the reprints they've done of I6, I10, and the Ravenloft: Realm of Terror box. Pretty solid productions, and useful for when you prefer a book over a box or don't want to use the older, more worn originals.
Quote from: sureshot on February 12, 2021, 09:48:59 AM
Honestly that annoying but more importantly hypocritical disclaimer bothered me at first. Now I don't think about it. It's either not buy and buy the same material at truly rip-off outrageous prices or get them cheaper. I choose the second.
Currently the POD on DriveThru are not badly priced. 25 soft, 30 hard. Compared to the idiots trying to scalp boxed sets for hundreds. Lots o luck that.
I got the Dark Sun print a couple of days ago - much thicker than I had thought, and a really reasonable price. Paperback was less than twenty bucks, hardback is twenty-three.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 12, 2021, 10:33:45 AM
Production costs may figure in as well--IIRC, Planescape included a lot more full-color art that Spelljammer, which drives up the printing costs.
I thought about that, but I remember Spelljammer having a ton of full color art, including all the fold up spelljammer ship tokens and cardstock sheets for each ship including full color art of the ship on the front. Plus the fold out maps.
I'd have to check then out to compare. I think Planescape had a lot of sepia-ish art, but it was on practically every page.
OBS uses Lightning Source for their print on demand books in the US. I could be wrong, but don't they charge a flat fee based on binding, page count, and paper quality (e.g. color/not color)? Since they're not charging publishers separately for the number of pages that are in color or black and white, or the ink used, the graphical density shouldn't impact the cost. Though it's certainly possible that Wizards of the Coast gets special treatment, because they certainly do in other areas (DMs Guild, it's OBS staff not WotC staff who scan and prep the books for conversion into PDFs, etc.).
I love spelljammer! Id like a hard copy.
Wear a Guyver suit and pilot a giant hollowed out Gamera.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 12, 2021, 12:18:31 PM
I'd have to check then out to compare. I think Planescape had a lot of sepia-ish art, but it was on practically every page.
Yes, it was. The MC stuff was a bit more colorful, but the rest was sepia and on every page.
I may have to buy this so I don't have to use my originals.
Okay, ordered both Spelljammer and Planescape. This better be good :)
(and apparently Premium shipping should bypass EU customs and shit).
Im trying not to buy all these...but its tempting.
If you want to buy a lot of stuff, you might be better off waiting a few weeks—we're not too far from the annual GM's Day Sale.
Planescape.. the one with Torment 8) Now why they never capitalised on the crpg i will never understand. That thing was the bees knees. Instead we have some numenera ''spiritual sucessor''. I guess it sjust not possible to make a game aimed at people who like action philosophy, multiverse hopping and.. wait, why am i talking about Amber?:)
Planescape in a way never left. Its a part of 5e in a way and still gets refferenced. But as its own setting, so far seems not. Though Descent into Avernus does involve the Bloodwar. YMMV of course.
Is Spelljammer actually any good? Serious question. I started playing Rifts about the time it came out and thought it was a bad knockoff, never really gave it a chance.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 12, 2021, 03:35:36 PM
If you want to buy a lot of stuff, you might be better off waiting a few weeks—we're not too far from the annual GM's Day Sale.
Good to know!
Quote from: Brad on February 13, 2021, 07:36:50 PM
Is Spelljammer actually any good? Serious question. I started playing Rifts about the time it came out and thought it was a bad knockoff, never really gave it a chance.
I quite like it, but its not really like rifts...its more like....well i always thought of it being like Treasure Planet.
Quote from: Brad on February 13, 2021, 07:36:50 PM
Is Spelljammer actually any good? Serious question. I started playing Rifts about the time it came out and thought it was a bad knockoff, never really gave it a chance.
It's not a knock-off of RIFTS. They're not even in the same vicinity.
Pre-Spelljammer D&D had a lot of mechanics for traveling between planes, but aside from a few handwavy mentions of gates or that appendix in the Manual of the Planes, it never really delved into how travel between different alternate worlds within the Prime worked. Spelljammer answers that question.
And it does it using space travel. Except it's not science or science fiction space travel. It's space travel based on pre-modern cosmological theories like celestial spheres and luminiferous ether. Basically, each campaign setting (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, your own, other worlds they made up) is in a solar system surrounded by a giant crystal sphere. Crazy flying ships shaped like animals or other weird things can travel between planets (bodies) within a single crystal sphere, and can cross the (highly explosive and flammable) phlogiston between spheres.
As with all 2e settings, there are some issues, for instance too great a dependence on casters (ships fly using helms -- think helming a ship, not armor for the head -- which are almost always powered by casters), but conceptually it's a lot of fun, the ship designs are fantastic, and the setting components are great. For instance, beholders are more concerned with their own internal war of racial purity so they might trade peacefully with outsiders, spider slavers with umber hulk muscle are common in ports, an powerful elven armada keeps peace, and religious factions (Ptah is big) have to deal with the connection to their god varying from sphere to sphere, and more. A lot of high concept ideas, leavened with some silliness (sometimes both -- humanoid hippos with monocles and military uniforms sound absurd, but the giff are one of the most popular and well developed elements of the setting).
Quote from: Pat on February 13, 2021, 09:53:14 PM
It's not a knock-off of RIFTS. They're not even in the same vicinity.
I was in junior high...gosh!
Thanks for the info, though. Cheap as an 18-pack of High Life so might as well buy it.
Quote from: Slambo on February 13, 2021, 09:19:07 PM
Quote from: Brad on February 13, 2021, 07:36:50 PM
Is Spelljammer actually any good? Serious question. I started playing Rifts about the time it came out and thought it was a bad knockoff, never really gave it a chance.
I quite like it, but its not really like rifts...its more like....well i always thought of it being like Treasure Planet.
Yes, it is.
Spelljammer came first, though.
Quote from: Pat on February 13, 2021, 09:53:14 PM
Quote from: Brad on February 13, 2021, 07:36:50 PM
Is Spelljammer actually any good? Serious question. I started playing Rifts about the time it came out and thought it was a bad knockoff, never really gave it a chance.
It's not a knock-off of RIFTS. They're not even in the same vicinity.
Pre-Spelljammer D&D had a lot of mechanics for traveling between planes, but aside from a few handwavy mentions of gates or that appendix in the Manual of the Planes, it never really delved into how travel between different alternate worlds within the Prime worked. Spelljammer answers that question.
And it does it using space travel. Except it's not science or science fiction space travel. It's space travel based on pre-modern cosmological theories like celestial spheres and luminiferous ether. Basically, each campaign setting (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, your own, other worlds they made up) is in a solar system surrounded by a giant crystal sphere. Crazy flying ships shaped like animals or other weird things can travel between planets (bodies) within a single crystal sphere, and can cross the (highly explosive and flammable) phlogiston between spheres.
As with all 2e settings, there are some issues, for instance too great a dependence on casters (ships fly using helms -- think helming a ship, not armor for the head -- which are almost always powered by casters), but conceptually it's a lot of fun, the ship designs are fantastic, and the setting components are great. For instance, beholders are more concerned with their own internal war of racial purity so they might trade peacefully with outsiders, spider slavers with umber hulk muscle are common in ports, an powerful elven armada keeps peace, and religious factions (Ptah is big) have to deal with the connection to their god varying from sphere to sphere, and more. A lot of high concept ideas, leavened with some silliness (sometimes both -- humanoid hippos with monocles and military uniforms sound absurd, but the giff are one of the most popular and well developed elements of the setting).
This is a good and accurate summary. If you're looking for adventures on the high seas but even more gonzo, this your bag.
Quote from: RandyB on February 14, 2021, 10:55:05 AM
Yes, it is.
Spelljammer came first, though.
I first saw both of them end of the summer in 1990 at the local gaming store. How long had Spelljammer been released before Rifts came out?
Quote from: Brad on February 14, 2021, 12:43:06 PM
Quote from: RandyB on February 14, 2021, 10:55:05 AM
Yes, it is.
Spelljammer came first, though.
I first saw both of them end of the summer in 1990 at the local gaming store. How long had Spelljammer been released before Rifts came out?
Miscommunication.
Spelljammer came out before Treasure Planet.
To your question, I don't remember the relative release dates of Spelljammer and Rifts. To me, the similarities between the two are minimal, anyway.
The Helms running on spellcaster power was a neat idea, but had the issue others have mentioned. You get a spellcaster with no spells if you run into a random space encounter.
Keeping the original idea, I'd change it so that helms can store magic for a week, and anyone can "drive" the ship by sitting at the helm. (IIRC it takes someone sitting at the helm, and a crew running the rigging like a water ship) That way the magic cost can be spread out over a week instead of all or nothing day-by-day. I'd have to go over the Spelljammer rules again, of course.
And IIRC there were other power sources, but they weren't nearly as widespread as the Spelljammer helm.
Quote from: Brad on February 13, 2021, 07:36:50 PM
Is Spelljammer actually any good? Serious question. I started playing Rifts about the time it came out and thought it was a bad knockoff, never really gave it a chance.
Very YMMV. Its D&D in fantasy space. Travel from system to system in various models of vessel from the mundane to the fantastical. A few new races and the ability to travel from one setting to another even. Rules for space combat and also how travel can impact clerics if you get outside their influence. Ships ran off a jammer helm which required some spellcaster class to man it and pretty much used up their spell slots as fuel. Also like the Star Frontiers Knight Hawks expansion it came with an add on tactical space battle wargame for those who wanted to make use of. And some really nice 3d folded ship minis. Wryly ironic as it also had hidden in the pages some of the Star Frontiers races as monsters.
Also rules for falling from orbit. Dead.
It is not as goofball as some like to claim. Just very broad in its tone from deadly serious to very lighthearted.
Had a couple of modules and boxed sets and a Complete Guide book that opened up more races for use.
Quote from: Omega on February 14, 2021, 03:50:52 PM
It is not as goofball as some like to claim. Just very broad in its tone from deadly serious to very lighthearted.
Yeah, I don't mind lighthearted, but I think Spelljammer didn't have as solid a tone as other campaign settings. Joke races and biomechanical elves. (It sounds cool, but the writeup was pretty dull)
I think if I ran Spelljammer nowadays, I'd focus on a Jules Verne / Adventure Planet type of tone, and not be distracted by the grab-bag of ideas floating around.
Quote from: Pat on February 13, 2021, 09:53:14 PMA lot of high concept ideas, leavened with some silliness (sometimes both -- humanoid hippos with monocles and military uniforms sound absurd, but the giff are one of the most popular and well developed elements of the setting).
Allways thought it odd that the Dracon, the dragon-taurs were never fleshed out. But that might have been deliberate. Left blank for the DM to take in whatever direction they wanted.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 14, 2021, 03:55:50 PM
Quote from: Omega on February 14, 2021, 03:50:52 PM
It is not as goofball as some like to claim. Just very broad in its tone from deadly serious to very lighthearted.
Yeah, I don't mind lighthearted, but I think Spelljammer didn't have as solid a tone as other campaign settings. Joke races and biomechanical elves. (It sounds cool, but the writeup was pretty dull)
I think if I ran Spelljammer nowadays, I'd focus on a Jules Verne / Adventure Planet type of tone, and not be distracted by the grab-bag of ideas floating around.
That though was a problem with alot of 2e writing. Dull. Ad oddly sometimes un-informative. YMMV of course and some books were better by far than others.
Quote from: RandyB on February 14, 2021, 12:48:28 PM
Quote from: Brad on February 14, 2021, 12:43:06 PM
Quote from: RandyB on February 14, 2021, 10:55:05 AM
Yes, it is.
Spelljammer came first, though.
I first saw both of them end of the summer in 1990 at the local gaming store. How long had Spelljammer been released before Rifts came out?
Miscommunication.
Spelljammer came out before Treasure Planet.
To your question, I don't remember the relative release dates of Spelljammer and Rifts. To me, the similarities between the two are minimal, anyway.
Spelljammer came out in 89.
Rifts came out in 90.
And yeah they are nothing similar. Rifts shares more with Gamma World.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 14, 2021, 03:55:50 PM
Quote from: Omega on February 14, 2021, 03:50:52 PM
It is not as goofball as some like to claim. Just very broad in its tone from deadly serious to very lighthearted.
Yeah, I don't mind lighthearted, but I think Spelljammer didn't have as solid a tone as other campaign settings. Joke races and biomechanical elves. (It sounds cool, but the writeup was pretty dull)
I think if I ran Spelljammer nowadays, I'd focus on a Jules Verne / Adventure Planet type of tone, and not be distracted by the grab-bag of ideas floating around.
My first response to Spelljammer was I wanted to rewrite the whole thing. It's cool in conception, and when it comes to a lot of the specifics, but there are the usual mechanical issues that beset everything in second edition, and as you noted, it's very inconsistent in tone. It's a place with a lot of wild ideas, but some fail, and it generally feels like it's more in the brainstorming stage than a final, polished product.
I think this was more of a problem when it first came out, because the main audience of D&D at the time was teenagers, and people at that developmental stage are great at absorbing vast gobs of material, but they're weaker on the critical side. Most gamers today are experienced adults, with a broader perspective and firmer ideas on what works and what doesn't. Spelljammer works fine from that perspective. It's a grab-bag of ideas, but it needs a filter. Decide what works, drop anything that doesn't, decide what to focus on, and adjust as needed.
Do the GM's day discounts usually apply only to pdfs or do they go for print products as well?
I could be out of date, but I've never seen sales apply to print books on OBS.
Quote from: Pat on February 14, 2021, 08:35:12 PM
I could be out of date, but I've never seen sales apply to print books on OBS.
Usually, they don't, but I know it's happened at least once with WOTC products. Whether that was a fluke or not, I don't know. You do see small discounts on the print/PDF combo packs, though.
Thanks for the heads-up.
My copy of Ravenloft just shipped. Should be in in a weekish. I'll post an impression of the quality of the print job.
Something I learned from an author who was doing their self printing through POD.
Never assume the quality will be the same from one book to another. Why? Because most POD suppliers actually are outsourcing to various POD factories as demand and openings occur. So book A, or sample request A may not look quite like book B from the same POD company as it might have come from a different POD factory.
With colour art in a book this can be a major hassle. On top of formatting problems as not all of these factories might be using the same format even.
Research and ask questions when can if you think it might be a factor in purchases. Especially if going the self publish route.
Should not be a problem with this. But since its POD. Never know.
Here's a channel with a lot of flip-throughs of the DTRPG stuff, including some of the newest PoD stuff from TSR.
https://www.youtube.com/user/sehayhurst/videos
My Dark Sun copy came in the mail today.
The binding looks good, can't tell how the spine will hold up until I've broken it in.
The pages are nice and thick, not flimsy at all.
The inside pages have a white border around them, but considering it's a POD job from scans, I'm not bothered. From a quick flip through, the printing is clear and no errors, smudges, blurring that I can see.
The maps are all broken up into pages, but whadayagondo? I didn't expect them to print out the fold out maps seperatley.
I'm very pleased and can't wait to get my Ravenloft.
*edit*
The scans of the flip books are a little less neat. There's obvious scan elements, like a futzy white background. They're still clear, legible and useable. It's just a lot more noticeable that they are scans.
Quote from: Godfather Punk on February 12, 2021, 01:58:30 PM
Okay, ordered both Spelljammer and Planescape. This better be good :)
(and apparently Premium shipping should bypass EU customs and shit).
I received both books today in Belgium (including printing only 14 days after ordering, that's lightning speed compared to some other things I ordered in the UK since Brexit; also no extra charges).
The SpellJammer HC looks beautiful if it wasn't for some dented corners. The pages are clear and feel they could stand some heavy usage. The PlaneScape book however was only available in SC, and the page quality is noticeably a lot less; the text has some 'bleeding' effect around the edges, as if done on a budget Inktjet, and the paper itself is also slightly curled.
Quote from: Godfather Punk on February 26, 2021, 09:33:51 AM
Quote from: Godfather Punk on February 12, 2021, 01:58:30 PM
Okay, ordered both Spelljammer and Planescape. This better be good :)
(and apparently Premium shipping should bypass EU customs and shit).
I received both books today in Belgium (including printing only 14 days after ordering, that's lightning speed compared to some other things I ordered in the UK since Brexit; also no extra charges).
The SpellJammer HC looks beautiful if it wasn't for some dented corners. The pages are clear and feel they could stand some heavy usage. The PlaneScape book however was only available in SC, and the page quality is noticeably a lot less; the text has some 'bleeding' effect around the edges, as if done on a budget Inktjet, and the paper itself is also slightly curled.
In general I've found the Planescape stuff to be lower quality. My Planes of Law softcover was also missing the first page of the MC -- it was literally just blank. However, Monster Mythology, City of Greyhawk, and Dark Sun were all good.
I have Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Ruins of Undermountain 2, and City of Delights on the way so I'll see how those stack up.
;D Yay! Oh frabjous day! 8) Fabulous, rapturous, joyous day!
... I don't think I have any more room for more stuff. :'( Oh bother.
Just reading through my Spelljammer reprint. A little disappointed with both it and Ravenloft as both of them have very warped pages (in terms of print quality that is). However, there's no discernable faint printing or missing pages yet like I've experienced with Planescape.
I got my Ravenloft softcover today. It seems fine on first flipthrough. No obvious print mishaps. I never had the original boxed set, so I can't compare it to the original.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 03, 2021, 04:22:01 PM
I got my Ravenloft softcover today. It seems fine on first flipthrough. No obvious print mishaps. I never had the original boxed set, so I can't compare it to the original.
I've read through it a bit now. The scans look more like scans than my Dark Sun hardback. Some pixelation, and bits of text in places look squished. It's not bad, but not as good as the Dark Sun book.
Yes, Dark Sun Spelljammer looks really good ( though I suspect that bound the 2 books in the wrong order; the general player oriented stuff comes in second in my copy).
Edit: I mistakenly wrote Dark Sun.
Anyway, I'm pleased enough that I just ordered the Masque of the Red Death and the Exploring Eberron book in print too.
Quote from: Godfather Punk on March 04, 2021, 03:58:37 PM
Yes, Dark Sun looks really good ( though I suspect that bound the 2 books in the wrong order; the general player oriented stuff comes in second in my copy).
Anyway, I'm pleased enough that I just ordered the Masque of the Red Death and the Exploring Eberron book in print too.
One thing I found interesting is there is a weapons table on P.53 of the Dark Sun rules handbook. In my original boxed set, the entries are all shifted, I think one column to the right. So that damage, weight, type, etc are all in the wrong columns.
My PDF and the hardback are corrected. They must have fixed it in a second printing and that's the version being used for the drivethru versions.
Quote from: Godfather Punk on March 04, 2021, 03:58:37 PM
Yes, Dark Sun Spelljammer looks really good ( though I suspect that bound the 2 books in the wrong order; the general player oriented stuff comes in second in my copy).
Edit: I mistakenly wrote Dark Sun.
Anyway, I'm pleased enough that I just ordered the Masque of the Red Death and the Exploring Eberron book in print too.
Concordance is the first book and Legends is the second book in the box.
My Spelljammer hardcover in and so far no issues with it. Rather keep ordering from Drivethrurpg than pay the overly expensive ridiculously expensive prices for the original.
Quote from: sureshot on March 05, 2021, 08:52:29 AM
My Spelljammer hardcover in and so far no issues with it. Rather keep ordering from Drivethrurpg than pay the overly expensive ridiculously expensive prices for the original.
Yep. I have the boxed set for Dark Sun, bought at my local FLGS that buys and sells old RPG products. On the first day I got it, I put a small tear on one of the pages in one of the books. :(
I ordered the Planescape softcover today for the same reason. My bro is collecting all the originals from online sources, but I want a copy for myself.
Unfortunately, all my books arrived damaged because they were just thrown in a box. Crushed corners, spines, bottoms, and so on. Not the first time it's happened, either. OBS has good products and customer service, but they'd have to step up their game to qualify as shit when it comes to packing.
One print (layout) problem I noticed in Ravenloft Realm of Terror: The gutters that were fine on saddle stitched pamphlets just don't work in a thick, perfect bound book. The words on the inside of the page fall into the crevice, and are very hard to read. I suppose it's okay if you want to look up something, but reading it like a book (yep, that's why I got it) is going to be a pain in the ass. They really should have added a half an inch or so to the inner pages.
Quote from: Pat on March 09, 2021, 08:17:02 PM
Unfortunately, all my books arrived damaged because they were just thrown in a box. Crushed corners, spines, bottoms, and so on. Not the first time it's happened, either. OBS has good products and customer service, but they'd have to step up their game to qualify as shit when it comes to packing.
Mine have all come in seperate boxes that are kinda form-fitting, and come open when you pull a perforation tab. No issues with damage from the mail.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 09, 2021, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 09, 2021, 08:17:02 PM
Unfortunately, all my books arrived damaged because they were just thrown in a box. Crushed corners, spines, bottoms, and so on. Not the first time it's happened, either. OBS has good products and customer service, but they'd have to step up their game to qualify as shit when it comes to packing.
Mine have all come in seperate boxes that are kinda form-fitting, and come open when you pull a perforation tab. No issues with damage from the mail.
You know those lightweight boxes, where if you put anything heavy inside it feels like the box is twisting and about to fall apart in your hands because it can't handle the weight? That's what I got. The books could slide around freely, the box provided no real protection, and the only piece of packing material was a single layer of bubble wrap that was so tiny it didn't even cover the face of a single book. Bottoms were literally were bent up at weird angles, spines were crushed, and assorted lesser damage.
Quote from: Pat on March 09, 2021, 09:29:16 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 09, 2021, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: Pat on March 09, 2021, 08:17:02 PM
Unfortunately, all my books arrived damaged because they were just thrown in a box. Crushed corners, spines, bottoms, and so on. Not the first time it's happened, either. OBS has good products and customer service, but they'd have to step up their game to qualify as shit when it comes to packing.
Mine have all come in seperate boxes that are kinda form-fitting, and come open when you pull a perforation tab. No issues with damage from the mail.
You know those lightweight boxes, where if you put anything heavy inside it feels like the box is twisting and about to fall apart in your hands because it can't handle the weight? That's what I got. The books could slide around freely, the box provided no real protection, and the only piece of packing material was a single layer of bubble wrap that was so tiny it didn't even cover the face of a single book. Bottoms were literally were bent up at weird angles, spines were crushed, and assorted lesser damage.
Weird. I wonder why there were different packaging methods.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 10, 2021, 12:14:51 AM
Weird. I wonder why there were different packaging methods.
How many locations does Lightning Source have? Local standards might vary. Or they might have one standard for shipping solitary books (what you described is a common method), and then a lack of a standard for shipping a stack.
So the whole damaged books thing...EVERY SINGLE BOOK I have ever ordered from DTRPG has arrived in a fucked up box. Without fail. It's like they purposefully ship stuff in such a way as to ensure one of the corners gets bent.
OneBookShelf gave me account credit for... I don't know exactly what. The amount makes no sense. But it's more than sufficient.
Like I said, they have good customer service. Still wish they'd just packed the books well in the first place.
This may be part of my warning above I had not actually thought of as being a thing.
If they outsource to different printers every time then it could very well be that different printers are shipping the books off differently as well.
This is why my author friend just said fuck this, figured out who was really doing the printing and sidestepped the POD service. Great for bulk, unfortunately useless for one-offs. But there you go.
Quote from: Omega on March 16, 2021, 06:39:50 AM
If they outsource to different printers every time then it could very well be that different printers are shipping the books off differently as well.
OneBookshelf (parent company of all the DriveThru* sites) uses Lightning Source, I believe exclusively. Which makes sense, because different printers have different standards and requirements, so it would probably be impossible to just ship a file off to a random printer and get a book back without going through the full proofing profess. Checking their parent company's website (https://www.ingramcontent.com/about/locations), it looks like there are 4 LS locations, in Tennessee, the UK, Germany, and also Australia. Based on the shipping label and packing list, I can confirm mine came from the TN location. So it seems likely that, where ever you live, you're going to consistently get all your POD books ordered through DriveThruRPG from the same printing location. Which mostly blows my theory about different printers out of the water, though Europeans, North Americans, and Australians may all have different experiences.
Yes, but Lightning Source itself looks to be outsourcing to various locations.
So at a guess OBS is outsourcing to Ingram/Lightning Source - who is outsourcing to their network of printers if I am reading the data right. But could be each locale handles some different product type like paperbacks here, hardcovers there, softcovers over there.
Got my copy of Planescape today.
The book came in the single, form fitting package, so no shipping damage.
The print quality, I'm not so thrilled about. The pages either seem washed out, or darkened. The washed out pages have sections, the fluff text in a sepia color, that are difficult to read. The darkened pages make the art look smudgy.
It's useable, but I think it needed some contrast correction somewhere along the process.
My DTRPG order for the 1e set a while back all came in one box with no bubblewrap, packed together, so the ones on the outer got some dings on the edges. Annoying but other than overpaying on EBay, no other choice. On the plus side, there was a misprint on one page of the DMG and they refunded me he whole purchase on that one so good and bad. Really wish they would use some better designed packing boxes.
Quote from: Brad on March 10, 2021, 11:27:20 AM
So the whole damaged books thing...EVERY SINGLE BOOK I have ever ordered from DTRPG has arrived in a fucked up box. Without fail. It's like they purposefully ship stuff in such a way as to ensure one of the corners gets bent.
My Worlds Without Number Kickstarter POD showed up today, and the upper right corners are fucked up. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME!
I've never had a problem with mine. They always seem to arrive singly with the pull-strip that Ratman mentioned.
A few times it has been a couple of volumes in one box but they were bubble-wrapped and the box was tight.
It may just be whoever the actual print shop is.
(I am in southern Ohio)
Quote from: moonsweeper on March 25, 2021, 06:56:51 PM
I've never had a problem with mine. They always seem to arrive singly with the pull-strip that Ratman mentioned.
A few times it has been a couple of volumes in one box but they were bubble-wrapped and the box was tight.
It may just be whoever the actual print shop is.
(I am in southern Ohio)
Pacific Northwest here. WA state.
I bought Planescape Campaign and in The Cage, as well as the Dawn of the Emperors and Karameikos PODs.
Quote from: sureshot on February 12, 2021, 09:48:59 AM
Honestly that annoying but more importantly hypocritical disclaimer bothered me at first. Now I don't think about it. It's either not buy and buy the same material at truly rip-off outrageous prices or get them cheaper. I choose the second.
My take on it is that it's slapped on for the idiots who never actually read the books, and likely won't since they're more interested in ideology than the issues they're ideologizing on.
A better way to write that disclaimer would be to say "the authors of these books were inspired to write these settings based on certain topics such as martial arts movies, and may not have considered the ways in which their works could be taken as racist. The reader is invited to read the material and judge how appropriate it is for their own campaign, as well as how the material could be reworked if such is deemed necessary."
Since I'm sure that, say, Oriental Adventures was inspired by "OMG martial arts movies are
so cool and would make a wonderful setting that we can geek out over!" without considering how others, 25 years later, might think about it.
Quote from: Jame Rowe on March 25, 2021, 08:21:54 PM
I bought Planescape Campaign and in The Cage, as well as the Dawn of the Emperors and Karameikos PODs.
Quote from: sureshot on February 12, 2021, 09:48:59 AM
Honestly that annoying but more importantly hypocritical disclaimer bothered me at first. Now I don't think about it. It's either not buy and buy the same material at truly rip-off outrageous prices or get them cheaper. I choose the second.
My take on it is that it's slapped on for the idiots who never actually read the books, and likely won't since they're more interested in ideology than the issues they're ideologizing on.
A better way to write that disclaimer would be to say "the authors of these books were inspired to write these settings based on certain topics such as martial arts movies, and may not have considered the ways in which their works could be taken as racist. The reader is invited to read the material and judge how appropriate it is for their own campaign, as well as how the material could be reworked if such is deemed necessary."
Since I'm sure that, say, Oriental Adventures was inspired by "OMG martial arts movies are so cool and would make a wonderful setting that we can geek out over!" without considering how others, 25 years later, might think about it.
I'd prefer if the disclaimer said "Ping pong ching chong! You likee Orienta Adventa! You buy now!" And weed out all the regressive dickheads.
But we can't always get what we want.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 25, 2021, 08:24:20 PM
I'd prefer if the disclaimer said "Ping pong ching chong! You likee Orienta Adventa! You buy now!" And weed out all the regressive dickheads.
But we can't always get what we want.
Yes, because that's something a reasonable person wants.
And
you're a person,
aren't you?
Quote from: Jame Rowe on March 25, 2021, 08:26:44 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 25, 2021, 08:24:20 PM
I'd prefer if the disclaimer said "Ping pong ching chong! You likee Orienta Adventa! You buy now!" And weed out all the regressive dickheads.
But we can't always get what we want.
Yes, because that's something a reasonable person wants.
And you're a person, aren't you?
Resonable was taken out back and shot a few years ago.
And the jury's still out on that last question.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 25, 2021, 08:24:20 PM
I'd prefer if the disclaimer said "Ping pong ching chong! You likee Orienta Adventa! You buy now!" And weed out all the regressive dickheads.
But we can't always get what we want.
I would have gone with the classic: Oriental Adventures loves you long time.
The better disclaimer would be "Asians were consulted in the creation of this book and we think thats wacist because we are morons!"
To be a bit more serious and maybe productive. There should not be any disclaimers. The whole idea is that WOTC still likes your money, but the wokies want you to know that if you buy those old, problematic TSR products, that they're glaring at you from their citadel in Seattle. Fuck 'em right in the ear.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 26, 2021, 03:03:31 AM
To be a bit more serious and maybe productive. There should not be any disclaimers. The whole idea is that WOTC still likes your money, but the wokies want you to know that if you buy those old, problematic TSR products, that they're glaring at you from their citadel in Seattle. Fuck 'em right in the ear.
Now we're getting somewhere. This, I agree with. The being productive part, that is.
WotC is only putting up disclaimers because a few idiots are making noise. They should just say "read the book and then think before speaking.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 26, 2021, 12:33:25 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 25, 2021, 08:24:20 PM
I'd prefer if the disclaimer said "Ping pong ching chong! You likee Orienta Adventa! You buy now!" And weed out all the regressive dickheads.
But we can't always get what we want.
I would have gone with the classic: Oriental Adventures loves you long time.
Pretty sure for me it'd be the classic movie quote: Tou beaucoup
Quote from: Jame Rowe on March 26, 2021, 09:03:13 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 26, 2021, 03:03:31 AM
To be a bit more serious and maybe productive. There should not be any disclaimers. The whole idea is that WOTC still likes your money, but the wokies want you to know that if you buy those old, problematic TSR products, that they're glaring at you from their citadel in Seattle. Fuck 'em right in the ear.
Now we're getting somewhere. This, I agree with. The being productive part, that is.
WotC is only putting up disclaimers because a few idiots are making noise. They should just say "read the book and then think before speaking.
Considering the political climate of the Seattle area (I live here and have first hand experience) I think a lot of the noisy idiots are working at WOTC.
I finally (fuck UPS... 3 weeks delay in the warehouse) received the Eberron High Quality hardcover and the Masque o/t Red Death standard softcover.
The Eberron print quality would have been top, but someone decided to throw a blurry grey watermark on each and every page, making it hard to read.
As with all previously ordered hardcovers, the corners were dented, despite the double cardboard packaging.
The MRD print quality looks like printed on a home inkjet, and then left in a damp room; the text is very fuzzy (the paper quality and binding look solid enough).
So in conclusion, I will use DTRPG PoD only in the direst of circumstances in the future.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 26, 2021, 01:51:35 PM
Considering the political climate of the Seattle area (I live here and have first hand experience) I think a lot of the noisy idiots are working at WOTC.
I've never been farther west than the Black Hills, but everything I've heard about Seattle and WotC agrees with this. The barbarians are not only inside the gates, they
built the castle.
Yeah sounds like standard outsourcing variations in print. Either that or they have really cut back the quality.
If a book came with every page ruined by some watermark I'd be wanting my cash back.
Well, it's not really a 'watermark'; it's like a faux vellum & stain background, to make the book look more... antique? But blue-grey.
Ahh, like that damn speckling background WW used in about every other chapter of the d20 GW books. Dark speckling no less. Some of the speckles nearly the size of the font so you can see where this was going. Or more like NOT see.