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Just came across this. Spelljammer and Dragonlance? I am surprised after the multiple screw-ups WOTC made over Dragonlance.

IGN talks about both. https://www.ign.com/articles/dungeons-and-dragons-dragonlance-spelljammer-announced (https://www.ign.com/articles/dungeons-and-dragons-dragonlance-spelljammer-announced)

Looks like a big set if it is 3 books. Astral Adventurers Guide suggests that they are moving things from the Phlogston to the Astral Plane? The space elves are now Astral Elves. That pretty much guarantees it will be set in the Astral. Also looks like the Tinker Gnomes have been reworked as robot gnomes? And Star Frontiers Dralasites make a comeback as the Plasmoids.

I'd love to get excited about this. But its WOTC and its now. So... No. That and a 3 book set is likely to be pricy. I'm betting its anywhere from 100$ to 150$ unless those are smaller than average books.

As for Dragonlance. This bit at least seems positive. IF WOTC does not botch it.

Quote"This is not a reboot of the setting, it doesn't invalidate or change any of the previous Dragonlance stories. It doesn't throw any of that away—it adds details around the edges and builds upon them."

Quote from: Omega on April 23, 2022, 01:14:45 PM
Looks like a big set if it is 3 books.

Three 64 page books.

https://www.polygon.com/23033732/dnd-spelljammer-adventures-in-space-release-date-price

"The books included with Spelljammer: Adventures in Space are, however, much slimmer at just 64 pages each. Previously released hardcover materials for 5th edition D&D are generally well in excess of 250 pages each."

I realize Polygon can be hit or miss, but it was just the first one I found to cite.

Quote from: Omega on April 23, 2022, 01:14:45 PM
Just came across this. Spelljammer and Dragonlance? I am surprised after the multiple screw-ups WOTC made over Dragonlance.

IGN talks about both. https://www.ign.com/articles/dungeons-and-dragons-dragonlance-spelljammer-announced (https://www.ign.com/articles/dungeons-and-dragons-dragonlance-spelljammer-announced)

Looks like a big set if it is 3 books. Astral Adventurers Guide suggests that they are moving things from the Phlogston to the Astral Plane? The space elves are now Astral Elves. That pretty much guarantees it will be set in the Astral. Also looks like the Tinker Gnomes have been reworked as robot gnomes? And Star Frontiers Dralasites make a comeback as the Plasmoids.

I'd love to get excited about this. But its WOTC and its now. So... No. That and a 3 book set is likely to be pricy. I'm betting its anywhere from 100$ to 150$ unless those are smaller than average books.

As for Dragonlance. This bit at least seems positive. IF WOTC does not botch it.

Quote"This is not a reboot of the setting, it doesn't invalidate or change any of the previous Dragonlance stories. It doesn't throw any of that away—it adds details around the edges and builds upon them."

Buy the original books and if you want to play 5e (why would you anyway?) just adapt them yourself.

Spelljammer never clicked for me. Damn shame because I really wanted to like it.

$70 for the box set isn't too bad though.

I saw some fan suggestions to merge the deep ethereal with the phlogiston, but the astral plane? It has too many different rules for that to fit. This looks like an astral plane adventures setting with spelljammer tech and concepts retrofitted to it.

Quote from: UA: Dragonlance
MAGES OF DRAGONLANCE
In past presentations of the Dragonlance setting, several of DUNGEONS & DRAGON's modern spellcasting classes didn't exist. To accommodate these classes, the group known as the Wizards of High Sorcery has evolved into the Mages of High Sorcery. The group's distinct orders and signature robes remain, but the organization now accepts members from a broad range of spellcasting traditions. Members who find their magic influenced by the phases of Krynn's moons also remain part of the group, largely represented by sorcerers with the Lunar Magic subclass.

Conflicted. First reaction is to question the need to fit a list of classes to the setting. Why not exclude/create classes to stay true to the lore? At the same time, the backgrounds and feats, particularly for Knights of Solamnia, seem interesting.

5e could squeeze additional longevity into what has been a long and successful edition, but I'm not convinced this will move the needle. Plus this will most likely be soaking wet with agenda and identity politics. Happy to be wrong.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 23, 2022, 02:16:06 PM

Quote from: UA: Dragonlance
MAGES OF DRAGONLANCE
In past presentations of the Dragonlance setting, several of DUNGEONS & DRAGON's modern spellcasting classes didn't exist. To accommodate these classes, the group known as the Wizards of High Sorcery has evolved into the Mages of High Sorcery. The group's distinct orders and signature robes remain, but the organization now accepts members from a broad range of spellcasting traditions. Members who find their magic influenced by the phases of Krynn's moons also remain part of the group, largely represented by sorcerers with the Lunar Magic subclass.

Conflicted. First reaction is to question the need to fit a list of classes to the setting. Why not exclude/create classes to stay true to the lore? At the same time, the backgrounds and feats, particularly for Knights of Solamnia, seem interesting.

5e could squeeze additional longevity into what has been a long and successful edition, but I'm not convinced this will move the needle. Plus this will most likely be soaking wet with agenda and identity politics. Happy to be wrong.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of diluting settings' uniqueness to fit the generic D&D rules. That's part of the reason why I like Spheres of Power: it gives you the tools to customize magic for different campaign conceits, rather than forcing everything into a cookie cutter mold. Depending on the setting, some classes and rules may simply be inappropriate and there's nothing wrong with this.

Very. Why arent they doing new paths to fit? Seems an odd choice.

But then the original modules ran off AD&D with few changes. Mostly just what was or not in the setting. Like no orcs, etc.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2022, 01:51:43 PM
Buy the original books and if you want to play 5e (why would you anyway?) just adapt them yourself.

I like quite a few things in 5e that I've imported into my regular OSR style game, like Advantage/Disadvantage.

Spelljammer always seemed like a better idea than the execution, and I really didn't like 2e.

I won't likely be getting these new books because they will be woke as hell, no doubt.

No one will care when 6e is around the corner.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 23, 2022, 02:15:37 PM
I saw some fan suggestions to merge the deep ethereal with the phlogiston, but the astral plane? It has too many different rules for that to fit. This looks like an astral plane adventures setting with spelljammer tech and concepts retrofitted to it.

Spelljammer is fundamentally incompatible with the Astral plane, while overlapping it in other ways. And nobody's ever really known what to do with the Ethereal. I'm generally fine with trying to making the planes more coherent and playable, but I think they'll lose a lot of the charm. Spelljammer, at its best, is really weird and quirky, even for D&D.

Quote from: thomden on April 23, 2022, 03:25:24 PM
Spelljammer always seemed like a better idea than the execution, and I really didn't like 2e.

Agreed. Spelljammer is packed with crazy, wild, and fascinating ideas, but it doesn't entirely gel. A really good version of Spelljammer would run with the madness, and demolish anything needed to make it happen. But the result wouldn't fit snugly into the kitchen sick version of D&D. It would have to be its own thing.

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2022, 04:46:34 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 23, 2022, 02:15:37 PM
I saw some fan suggestions to merge the deep ethereal with the phlogiston, but the astral plane? It has too many different rules for that to fit. This looks like an astral plane adventures setting with spelljammer tech and concepts retrofitted to it.

Spelljammer is fundamentally incompatible with the Astral plane, while overlapping it in other ways. And nobody's ever really known what to do with the Ethereal. I'm generally fine with trying to making the planes more coherent and playable, but I think they'll lose a lot of the charm. Spelljammer, at its best, is really weird and quirky, even for D&D.

Yeah, I think by replacing phlogiston with the astral (among other things) they'll lose a lot of the charm. It also breaks the cosmology because prior to this retcon we've been operating on the assumption that the prime material plane is contiguous... but now wildspace spheres just float in the astral no differently than the outer planes. Where is the logic here? Even the world axis cosmology from 4e made more sense.

I've always had issues with the planes. I used to spend a lot of time trying to devise coherent simplified cosmologies because I always found the great wheel pretty unwieldy. But I always tried to devise a logic behind why things were structured so. WotC seems to be arbitrarily simplifying things without understanding how this affects the cosmology holistically. Among other things, the astral plane has the timeless quality and the inner planes normally have not. Now it produces the bizarre result that space travel now makes you stop aging or need to eat.

I get that astral space nautical adventures and phlogiston space nautical adventures have always been redundant (which really annoyed me during my "invent my own planes" phase), but just merging them together without taking into account how this rewrites the cosmology... I'd take the Dark Dungeons cosmology over this. It's more logical.

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2022, 04:49:49 PM

Quote from: thomden on April 23, 2022, 03:25:24 PM
Spelljammer always seemed like a better idea than the execution, and I really didn't like 2e.

Agreed. Spelljammer is packed with crazy, wild, and fascinating ideas, but it doesn't entirely gel. A really good version of Spelljammer would run with the madness, and demolish anything needed to make it happen. But the result wouldn't fit snugly into the kitchen sick version of D&D. It would have to be its own thing.

This is part of why I don't like 5e. They keep hammering out the uniqueness from the settings and reducing them to simplistic aesthetics. For example, they removed the Core from Ravenloft. As in, the primary (and perhaps only) continent of the demiplane. That's like removing Middle Earth from Arda.

If WotC wanted to make aesthetics, that's fine. But outright destroying their IPs is... ugh. If there were actual structural problems that would be one thing (e.g. anything by Blizzard), but these changes are purely arbitrary.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 23, 2022, 05:08:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2022, 04:46:34 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 23, 2022, 02:15:37 PM
I saw some fan suggestions to merge the deep ethereal with the phlogiston, but the astral plane? It has too many different rules for that to fit. This looks like an astral plane adventures setting with spelljammer tech and concepts retrofitted to it.

Spelljammer is fundamentally incompatible with the Astral plane, while overlapping it in other ways. And nobody's ever really known what to do with the Ethereal. I'm generally fine with trying to making the planes more coherent and playable, but I think they'll lose a lot of the charm. Spelljammer, at its best, is really weird and quirky, even for D&D.

Yeah, I think by replacing phlogiston with the astral (among other things) they'll lose a lot of the charm.

I think it could be done. The problem is, making it interesting would require radically changing how the Astral operates, which would inevitably retroactively invalidate whatever they've done with the Astral in 5e. It's not something that can just be grafted onto an existing setting.

A stand-alone phlogiston, on the other hand, can be grafted on. Which is presumably why they did that in 2e.

But the best solution would be a setting where the principles of Spelljammer become the cosmology, instead of somehow competing with the Great Wheel, the Astral Sea, or whatever.

I gave up trying to make sense of D&D's cosmology ages ago, specially how they keep revamping it every edition, without maintaining much consistency. I fully expect them to mess this up and rip the soul out of Spelljammer with this new rendition. They're just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks.

But I haven't cared about nuD&D in ages, so it barely affects me at this point.

Quote from: thomden on April 23, 2022, 03:25:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2022, 01:51:43 PM
Buy the original books and if you want to play 5e (why would you anyway?) just adapt them yourself.

I like quite a few things in 5e that I've imported into my regular OSR style game, like Advantage/Disadvantage.

Spelljammer always seemed like a better idea than the execution, and I really didn't like 2e.

I won't likely be getting these new books because they will be woke as hell, no doubt.

That's fair, I ALSO like Advantage/Disadvantage.

Disagree on 2e. But you can always take what good is in Spelljamer and import it to whatever game you most like.

Spelljammer's problem is that it never quite conveyed a specific tone.  Was it cartoonish, light, swashbuckling, epic, wild and crazy?  It was hard to say and a bit all over the place.  I think it could have been better.  I think ships in the astral plane with Gith civil wars and the like would have been more interesting.

I don't particularly like spell jammer but I like the way they plan to bundle the setting in three books in a slipcover. I wish they did more of a multiverse connected by gates but we'll see. Maybe space hamsters will work better this go around.

I think Spelljammer worked best as its own setting. Which is what most of the modules were set in and any multiverse elements were mostly on the lower end. Mostly. A setting where you never quite knew what to expect from anything. Militant elves, friendly mind flayers, crazy beholders, etc.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 23, 2022, 11:10:35 PM
Spelljammer's problem is that it never quite conveyed a specific tone.  Was it cartoonish, light, swashbuckling, epic, wild and crazy?  It was hard to say and a bit all over the place.  I think it could have been better.  I think ships in the astral plane with Gith civil wars and the like would have been more interesting.

I don't think anything in your list is inherently contradictory, though I do agree Spelljammer had an issue with tone. It might be interesting to try to distill Spelljammer to a list of essential components. And to help hone that list, another list of what detracts from the setting, i.e. what to avoid or minimize.

I suspect the detracts list would include a lot of traditional D&D elements.

I think Spelljammer was alot like Planescape. It could have whatever tone you wanted. Humor? Can do. Horror? Can do. Swashbuckliing in space? Can do.

And like Planescape it really shines best when disconnected from the established worlds and used to explore the ones created for Spelljammer specifically.

I'll use it for the rules if they are any good for spacefaring ships and combat since my Co-DM is getting it through DNDBeyond anyway.

I'll give it a whirl but I cannot wait for the fanfic's for planets full of <MODERN DAY POLITICS> to be blasted out on DMsGuild or Itch.io to use in spelljammer.

I personally like spelljammer, even if its unfocused and all over the place.

Don't care about any planned 5e-ifications.

I wonder if they will keep racist beholders.

Quote from: Thornhammer on April 23, 2022, 02:12:48 PM
Spelljammer never clicked for me. Damn shame because I really wanted to like it.

$70 for the box set isn't too bad though.

Already showing up for pre-order on Canadian Amazon for 40% off.

It's probably the perfect setting for the 40 some playable races that in no way mesh together.  I skipped this in the 2E days, since I was a broke college student and would have preferred WEG's Star Wars for space fantasy.  As such I'll probably pick it up this go around even though the putting it in the Astral Sea bugs me a bit.

I like the fact that they are doing booklets. Seems like a great idea.

I barely buy 5e stuff nowadays, and these settings are not my favorites, so I'll pass unless I read some great reviews.

$70 does seem pricey to me for three 64-pages books and maybe a map and DM screen (which I don't use). Especially when compared to, say, this:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e

ASTRAL Elves? Wouldn't they be all mummy-looking and creepified like the Githyanki and Githzerai?

I just want them to take chances again. This is a setting where you can really go wild and you don't have to justify a damn thing. No grand unified theory of coherence. No safe space drum circle of harmony. Nada. It's in-your-face persistent weirdness, take it or leave it, stay home in your comfortable home crystal sphere.

Oh well, one can dream, no? D&D under Lorraine Williams made better settings -- more reckless abandon. :P

The great wheel is already a huge mess. Why start condensing it now after you already threw out the vastly more sensible world axis cosmology in the transition from 4e to 5e?

EDIT: I actually prefer what the DMG calls the "omniverse" cosmology, as that's slightly more compatible with the assumptions of prior editions than the world axis cosmology while still heavily simplifying the needless complexities.

Quote from: Timothe on April 24, 2022, 07:46:47 PM
ASTRAL Elves? Wouldn't they be all mummy-looking and creepified like the Githyanki and Githzerai?

Githzerai are in Limbo though, not the Astral plane, and Gith pirates were on the prime, and they all had the same gaunt look. So that's a Gith* characteristic, not an astral characteristic.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 23, 2022, 11:10:35 PM
Spelljammer's problem is that it never quite conveyed a specific tone.  Was it cartoonish, light, swashbuckling, epic, wild and crazy?  It was hard to say and a bit all over the place.  I think it could have been better.  I think ships in the astral plane with Gith civil wars and the like would have been more interesting.

Spelljammer is DnD in SPAAAAACE so it has the exact same tone as DnD does naturally.

Quote from: Shasarak on April 25, 2022, 08:38:23 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 23, 2022, 11:10:35 PM
Spelljammer's problem is that it never quite conveyed a specific tone.  Was it cartoonish, light, swashbuckling, epic, wild and crazy?  It was hard to say and a bit all over the place.  I think it could have been better.  I think ships in the astral plane with Gith civil wars and the like would have been more interesting.

Spelljammer is DnD in SPAAAAACE so it has the exact same tone as DnD does naturally.

  As the man said. :)

   D&D can be wildly divergent, and the 2E era was the most divergent of the lot. Even WotC, with its "One game to rule them all, one game to find them, one game to bring them all and to Organized Play bind them" visions, hasn't been able to make the game uniform.

Quote from: migo on April 25, 2022, 10:23:33 AM

Quote from: Timothe on April 24, 2022, 07:46:47 PM
ASTRAL Elves? Wouldn't they be all mummy-looking and creepified like the Githyanki and Githzerai?

Githzerai are in Limbo though, not the Astral plane, and Gith pirates were on the prime, and they all had the same gaunt look. So that's a Gith* characteristic, not an astral characteristic.

Right. The githyanki did not originate on the astral. They just made their home there after escaping the mind flayers. By A and 2e rules they would have to make trips to some non-astral plane as physical time doesnt exactly work there so one can not conceive. The astral also effected healing. Short of magic, you could not heal naturally in the astral.

Im going to take a wild guess and assume for 5e they are going to drop the time element of the astral.

And reading over my old Manual of the Planes. The Etherial would have made a better place to move spelljamming as it has man elements in common with the Phlogston.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 25, 2022, 08:45:34 PM
   D&D can be wildly divergent, and the 2E era was the most divergent of the lot. Even WotC, with its "One game to rule them all, one game to find them, one game to bring them all and to Organized Play bind them" visions, hasn't been able to make the game uniform.

That and OD&D kicks off with an alien renegade plotting in the swamps and using his advanced tech to create monsters..

I love Spelljammer but I hate WotC, so I won't get any new Spelljammer books from them. They'll just ruin the setting anyway.

Quote from: Omega on April 26, 2022, 01:37:01 AM

Quote from: migo on April 25, 2022, 10:23:33 AM

Quote from: Timothe on April 24, 2022, 07:46:47 PM
ASTRAL Elves? Wouldn't they be all mummy-looking and creepified like the Githyanki and Githzerai?

Githzerai are in Limbo though, not the Astral plane, and Gith pirates were on the prime, and they all had the same gaunt look. So that's a Gith* characteristic, not an astral characteristic.

Right. The githyanki did not originate on the astral. They just made their home there after escaping the mind flayers. By A and 2e rules they would have to make trips to some non-astral plane as physical time doesnt exactly work there so one can not conceive. The astral also effected healing. Short of magic, you could not heal naturally in the astral.

Im going to take a wild guess and assume for 5e they are going to drop the time element of the astral.

And reading over my old Manual of the Planes. The Etherial would have made a better place to move spelljamming as it has man elements in common with the Phlogston.

my thoughts exactly. The deep ethereal specifically makes for a better replacement for the phlogiston. Astral can still work as hyperspace, but having it exist between the spheres just raises more headaches for what is already an extremely convoluted cosmology. If they want to condense the planes, then they should do much more just transplanting Spelljammer into the astral.

Quote from: Thornhammer on April 23, 2022, 02:12:48 PM
Spelljammer never clicked for me. Damn shame because I really wanted to like it.

$70 for the box set isn't too bad though.

Three magazines, a cardboard screen, and a box to put it in all for $70?  Lol... nope.  Not even if I liked WotC's woke SJW bullshit!

It's an epic fail in my opinion, hoss. 

I was looking at some of the free Spelljammer material released on D&D Beyond.

Your first level characters get to go to Spelljammer Academy! WTF!?!?

Quote from: Timothe on July 20, 2022, 11:10:43 PM
I was looking at some of the free Spelljammer material released on D&D Beyond.

Your first level characters get to go to Spelljammer Academy! WTF!?!?

"You're a Spelljammer, Harry!"

Quote from: Timothe on July 20, 2022, 11:10:43 PM
I was looking at some of the free Spelljammer material released on D&D Beyond.

Your first level characters get to go to Spelljammer Academy! WTF!?!?

This is actually consistent with the original settings. Spelljammer and Planescape were written to be accessible from first level.

Yup. Spelljammer isn't an epic setting by default.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2022, 10:26:58 AM

Quote from: Timothe on July 20, 2022, 11:10:43 PM
I was looking at some of the free Spelljammer material released on D&D Beyond.

Your first level characters get to go to Spelljammer Academy! WTF!?!?

This is actually consistent with the original settings. Spelljammer and Planescape were written to be accessible from first level.

I do not recall that when I had the Spelljammer boxed set. You had to be a fairly high-level spellcaster or have special inate abilities to be able to power a spelljamming helm. If there were low level scenario cards in that set they were pretty much ignored. Anyway, Spelljammer was so stupid that I gave up on it and went back to requiring an Amulet of the Planes or similar magic for planar travel and each game world was an alternate prime.

I ignored Planescape.

Quote from: Timothe on July 21, 2022, 12:01:12 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 21, 2022, 10:26:58 AM

Quote from: Timothe on July 20, 2022, 11:10:43 PM
I was looking at some of the free Spelljammer material released on D&D Beyond.

Your first level characters get to go to Spelljammer Academy! WTF!?!?

This is actually consistent with the original settings. Spelljammer and Planescape were written to be accessible from first level.

I do not recall that when I had the Spelljammer boxed set. You had to be a fairly high-level spellcaster or have special inate abilities to be able to power a spelljamming helm. If there were low level scenario cards in that set they were pretty much ignored. Anyway, Spelljammer was so stupid that I gave up on it and went back to requiring an Amulet of the Planes or similar magic for planar travel and each game world was an alternate prime.

I ignored Planescape.

Box is mostly right here.

Spelljammers can be manned by even 1st level casters. But the boxed set tended to lean to the PCs getting one later in their adventuring careers. Such as mentioning after the PCs have performed some great adventure. But also covers how to get the PCs into space out the gate. At least one of the modules covers getting the PCs introduced to spelljamming fairly early.

So yes. 1st level casters can man a helm. Slow. But can be done. The general assumption though was the PCs had a few, or several levels under the belt before setting out. But getting out there earlier was allowed for and quite possible.

Spelljammer could be (poorly) done with 1st level characters back in the day, but unless Timothe is being facetious it's still horrifying for me if they're talking about some Hogwarts-style academy for spelljamming characters.  1st level characters are still supposed to be competent professionals, they aren't tweens going into Adventurer High to have school hijinks.

I wasn't being facetious, but now that I think of it the Ice Pirates would make a great Spelljammer adventure.