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What are the best spell systems as far as you're concerned, the best way to handle magic in a fantasy setting; and what characteristics do they have that make them so enjoyable to you?

I love how they handle spells in WFRP 2e.  You can cast as much as you like, but you run a risk of going nuts at low levels, or having everything explode in your face at high level.  So magic can be incredibly powerful, but its also always gambling with your life.

RPGPundit

I've always been a fan of Ars Magica's verb+noun in latin as skills and combining them allow you to make spells on the fly. One of the first magic systems that I found really effective and flavorful. especially since spell durations read like folktale/faery tale terms "until sunrise" or for a year, or until the sun sets over the mountains...and so on.

Quote from: SilverlionI've always been a fan of Ars Magica's verb+noun in latin as skills and combining them allow you to make spells on the fly.

Yup, the magic system in AM is a classic piece of game design. I also enjoy the later mechanics which it has so clearly inspired: magick in Mage and miracles in Nobilis.

I really like the magic system in Buffy.  Less so the attached telekenisis system which is somewhat clumsy but the magic system is great fun and beautifully designed as well as perfectly in genre.  I think it owes quite a bit to Ars Mag too, being semi-improvisational.

I like the magic system in 1st ed. Pendragon. It's GM special effects. No, your PC knight cannot cast spells. They added a magic system in 4th ed., but while it's elegant and atmospheric, it's entirely unsuitable for PCs.

I like the magic system in HeroQuest. Your magic abilities, like all other abilities, are described by a word or short phrase. How you use them in play is negotiable.

I'm all about Power Points.  I like how Rolemaster does it--1st level spell=1 PP, 3rd level spell=3 PP, and so on.

Ars Magica, hands down.

Plus, if you wanted a game less about the magi, you could add a fatigue/health cost, or a power points system, or require vis to be found - similar to the charges system from Unknown Armies.

On that point, Unknown Armies - only a madman believes magic works.  And thus, only a madman can use it...  however, I can't remember the actual mechanics for learning/inventing spells...

V.

Ars Magica, of course. Green Ronin's True Sorcery, which is the system introduced in The Black Company campaign setting. I also like the system in Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG. That system is similar to D&D's system, but it has a simple fatigue system instead of spell slots.

Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth

Takes time to learn, but once you have it down you can create all sorts of spells.

Ars Magica

What they said.

Dangerous Journeys: Mythus

Tons of spells, spell use requires skill, spell selection requires a modicum of good sense and planning ahead. The spell design rules are clunky, but you do get a shitload of spell effects you can incorporate.

Speaking of the last two. Somebody modified the spell creation system in Ars Magica for Mythus. Unfortunately it's no longer up.

True20 Based heavily off of Steve Kenson's Psychic's Handbook.  No spells, a series of skills and feats (which are mainly buy in to get skills).  No slots, points, or hard limit on how much magic you can do, just likelihood and fatigue.

BESM 2e actually 2 systems.  The first is ok but, like most free form systems, it boils down to "we don't have any real advice, just make it up as you go"  The second one does "you know all the special powers that make up half this book?  Use any of those to fashion your own spells."  Then it  reduced the cost for those powers with the tradeoff of tapping into a limited resource.

Another vote for WFRP2 magic here. In mechanical terms it's very simple to handle, which is good. What I also like is that it makes magic a force to be reckoned with instead of just a resource to be managed. I like this.
 
So far too the system's working well in my game, although the Apprentice Wizard PC is still only casting '1st level' magic, which means that I've yet to see the how the system works out at higher power levels. But the elegant simplicity of the core system is such that, when magic made its initial appearance in my game, it was a genuinely memorable moment in which the quiet elf revealed her true potential- ie. it was dramatic, instead of just being a moment in which a PC's special powers were first crunched-out. I liked this too.
 
I also quite liked GR's True Sorcery as a logical design. It looks like it could be a bit of a bitch to use in practice, but I liked the way it was done. ;)

I've read too much Conan as a kid, and so I never really liked magic in my games.  This change with C&C.

I know it's D&D's magic system, but C&C is what made me think about it again.  I strarted thinking about how it would work...and in making magic such an arcane, creepy thing, it added a whole new feel to "fire and forget" spells.

C&C really made me enjoy fantasy again, and renewed my interest in D&D style fantasy...and it is the magic that did it.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI'm all about Power Points.  I like how Rolemaster does it--1st level spell=1 PP, 3rd level spell=3 PP, and so on.

I like Rolemaster as well.  The Spell List is a great tool to easily build spellcasters with themes.

Call of Cthulhu's system is simple and most spells are delightfully unique.

I like the Magic systems in the Iridium System the best, or ones like it.

Here are the three main ones:

Spell points
Free Form
Mix of the two above.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Midnight or Earthdawn.

Quote from: JongWKI'm surprised no one has mentioned Midnight or Earthdawn.

What's the magic system like in Midnight?

Well, they're not really fantasy games but the best magic systems hands down, IMO, have been Mage: The Ascension and Deleria.  Otherwise Tunnels and Trolls for sheer fun :)

Quote from: GRIMOtherwise Tunnels and Trolls for sheer fun :)

"Take that you fiend" may be the best spell name ever.

Earthdawn- yes: you have threads, you have a matrix. Once you string the matrix, any energy that flows through it becomes a spell of the desired effect. It was very cool. And it was gameable because you had to manage your threads and power points, kinda.

But my favorite magic system is Magic: the Gathering. (wait, are we talking about RPGS only?)

Each spell (which is unique and predetermined/pre-designed, like a recipe) represents an alteration of the parameters of the game.

Quote from: jrients"Take that you fiend" may be the best spell name ever.

Except for "poor baby."

I agree with:

Quote from: RPGPundit... I love how they handle spells in WFRP 2e...

My only complaint is that WFRP 2e kept the D&D 'arcane/divine' split.  I wish Pramas had not done that.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI really like the magic system in Buffy....

Yeah, it does a really good job.

Quote from: NicephorusTrue20 ...

A refreshing change from the 'Vancian' system in standard D&D (I like the Vancian system -- I just think it is nice that True20 offers something completely different).

Quote from: jrients... Call of Cthulhu's system is simple and most spells are delightfully unique.

Yes.  :)

I'm fond of Cloak of Steels "feat" magic too--it has flexible open ended minor feats that grow in scale (it reminds me of a flexible version of the magic from Final Fantasy Tactics.)

Talislanta uses something akin to Ars Magica these days but distinguishes the effect and the how a bit differently (Orders and modes) and I'm fond of it albeit I think some of the "logic" in the setting behind it is backwards (you know thousands of spells but don't make new ones--even though mechanically thats what your able to do.)

Gleichman would like this one but when I was still playing D&D the "stoneskin" spell was such a guaranteed argument starter that I started including it in my spell list as a meta-game distraction.

Namely if the GM had us in a tight spot I'd point out that I had stoneskin cast upon myself and the whole table would instantly be consumed in a gigantic argument at the end of which the GM would luck up and go "anyway... you're all back at the tavern and..."

Surprisingly effective and as a result I think it deserves props in any discussion of decent magic systems.

Quote from: One Horse TownWhat's the magic system like in Midnight?

Feat-based.

Magecraft is the basic prerequisite for everything. Every class can take it, though the Channeler (which replaces D&D's spellcasters) has it easier, as it is the path for those who want to develop their talent beyond some tricks.

The Spellcasting feat lets you learn spells from a school of magic every time you take it. The Schools are D&D's, though Evocation and Conjuring are divided between Lesser and Greater. Spellcasting only lets you take the Lesser of both.

Greater Spellcasting can be taken at level 7+, and allows you to pick Greater Conjuring and Evocation. This effectively puts a barrier for the "artillery" and "summon" spells (Gr. Evo. has the damage spells, Gr. Conj. has the summonings).

You get Spell Points instead of slots. Once you spend them, you can still "burn" Constitution as temporary damage. You'll be able to throw a lot of low level magic, but the higher-powered stuff becomes more uncommon.

As I said, the Channeler is the basic class. Prestige Classes include the Druid and the Wizard. It has decent BAB, d6 HPs and a good number of skill points. All in all, a Channeler never feels useless as a Sorcerer or Wizard would once they run out of spells.

There are no distinction between divine and arcane magic, by the way. When you take the Magecraft feat, you choose which mental ability (Int, Wis, Cha) is your primary one. Each ability is linked to a particular tradition flavour (hermetic, divine, charismatic).

Two other feats are Craft Spell Talisman and Craft Greater Spell Talisman. Talismans reduce the cost for casting specific spells (the first feat), or specific schools (the latter).

There's Ritual Magic, for those times when you need the extra mojo.

A Power Nexus is a material source of raw magical energy, usually a place. A volcano could give energy for fire spells, or help you craft a certain magic item, etc. Don't be too greedy or you could drain them forever.

Charms (minor, lesser, greater and true) are a new kind of item. They're usually one-shot, except for the True Charms. You can make them with a simple skill check, though you need a certain number of ranks in some skills. Your typical village witch could sell you a couple of these without becoming a "magic shop."

You won't see many +1 swords in Midnight, but you could find a Covenant Item. These are magic items that carry their own legend, and you learn their past to unlock their powers (if you've played Earthdawn, this will ring you a bell).

That's about it. You could use this system in your standard D&D campaign, and it wouldn't suffer from it. Hell, Iron Heroes could certainly use the Channeler.

It's not particularly creative, but I enjoyed the presentation of magic in Decipher's Lord of the Rings game: the subtlety and basic fidelity to the source material was appealing.

What, you mean that the magic was woefully underpowered to the extent that in some situations wizards would be better of throwing rocs than casting lightening bolts?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhat, you mean that the magic was woefully underpowered to the extent that in some situations wizards would be better of throwing rocs than casting lightening bolts?

There are rocs in Middle-earth? :confused:

I would imagine that it would take a mighty wizard indeed to throw them!  :p

Quote from: AkrasiaThere are rocs in Middle-earth? :confused:

I would imagine that it would take a mighty wizard indeed to throw them!  :p

Well there were the Eagle-Lords...

and their prince was friends with Gandalf...

To be fair to the system it was flavorful and the few "combat" magics were as effective as weapons to the basic health system in LOTR. That is if you didn't implement the mook rule--it was pretty much the same long whittle down the opposition effect.

Blue Rose. It's basically True20's magic system, but it has subtle differences. It is broken down into "talents", it includes a feat to allow non-adepts to use magic (although not nearly as well as an adept), and the Blue Rose companion includes magic items, place magic, and ritual magic.

I love Mage: the Awakenings magic system, it's a very refined and better Balanced version of Ascension's. I love them both for the fact thatAnything you can imagine is possible. I also love the fact that when you hit high levels, Magic becomes a battle of concepts. I love the risk of Paradox (although I don't think Paradox is a good name for it in Awakening) as a form of balance a reprecussion. All in all a good thing. It really only works in a game all about Mage's though, I'd hate to be stuck as a mortal Police officer or something in the game,
 
My second favorite is Unknown Armies. You generate charges through role-playing situations, taboo's destroy all your charges with roleplaying situations, you use charges to fuel the spells and rituals that you know. It's the opposite paradigm from Mage the Ascension, where a Pardox fuels your powers rather than destroys them.
 
I like the S&S Advance Players Guide skill based Magic system. At least in theory, I never got to play it. It made the different schhols of magic a skill check.
 
I like 3rd edition SR Magic (I haven't gotten to play with 4th). It was pretty free form and was always hilarious when a Mage Passed out.

Quote from: NicephorusBESM 2e actually 2 systems.  The first is ok but, like most free form systems, it boils down to "we don't have any real advice, just make it up as you go"

This was all I needed. Just carte blanche for my players to be creative with any effect they could imagine and some concrete way of making magic a limited resource for the sake of play balance.

Changed the whole way I look at magic systems in RPGs. Now I never find myself wanting more than one page of magic rules, nevermind dozens or hundreds of pages of spell lists.

I even created a version for my Fudge campaigns (http://www.fudgeforum.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7) that was even simpler (no Energy Points to keep track of).

Quote from: KrakaJakI like 3rd edition SR Magic (I haven't gotten to play with 4th). It was pretty free form and was always hilarious when a Mage Passed out.

"A Fireball here, a Manabolt there, and a Power--aaarrghh!!!" *collapses*

;)

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhat, you mean that the magic was woefully underpowered to the extent that in some situations wizards would be better of throwing rocs than casting lightening bolts?

Try reading my post again.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhat, you mean that the magic was woefully underpowered to the extent that in some situations wizards would be better of throwing rocs than casting lightening bolts?

I gotta say, I ran a campaign with Decipher's LotR RPG, and magic sure didn't seem underpowered. The wizard PC was throwing spells with impunity, and doing a lot of damage during combats. As written, the magic system can be overpowered. The fatigue Target Numbers for spells are simply too low.

Quote from: YamoThis was all I needed. Just carte blanche for my players to be creative with any effect they could imagine and some concrete way of making magic a limited resource for the sake of play balance.

Changed the whole way I look at magic systems in RPGs. Now I never find myself wanting more than one page of magic rules, nevermind dozens or hundreds of pages of spell lists.

You...surprise me. Have you ever played HeroQuest?

Quote from: droogYou...surprise me. Have you ever played HeroQuest?

I've hearda little about it online, but I have been avoiding it because I've heard that it has mechanical rules for "social conflict", which I hate it a game (I'm a die-hard "just roleplay it!" kinda guy).

PC wizards are effective spellcasters in LotR?

In the novels, the only spellcasters are immortal beings of the order of Angels...

And they do not use magic to any particular degree...

V.

Quote from: VolkazzPC wizards are effective spellcasters in LotR?

In the novels, the only spellcasters are immortal beings of the order of Angels...

And they do not use magic to any particular degree...

V.

This is incorrect.  Elves are certainly described as 'using magic' by Tolkien.  Dwarves could enchant items with runes (rather extensive mention of this can be found in The Hobbit).

As for humans, the 'Mouth of Sauron' is described as a 'Black Numenorean sorcerer' who survived for centuries (eons?) through his magic.  He had no ring of power.  Also, the Seer Malbeth (advisor to the last King of Arthedain/Arnor, i.e. the Northern Kingdom of the Dunedain) is described as having the power of foreknowledge (he predicted that Arvedui would be the last king of an independent Arthedain, foretold the Fellowship's journey through the paths of the dead 1000 years ahead of time, etc.).  Beorn is described as 'a kind of magician' by Gandalf, and in any case obviously could change shape into a bear and had some kind of control over lesser animals.  During the Second Age, before they became corrupt, Tolkien describes the Numenoreans as able to communicate 'mentally' with their horses.  Etc.

Finally, every spell described in the LotR RPG is based on something found in Tolkien's books.

Quote from: AkrasiaThis is incorrect.  Elves are certainly described as 'using magic' by Tolkien.  Dwarves could enchant items with runes (rather extensive mention of this can be found in The Hobbit).

As for humans, the 'Mouth of Sauron' is described as a 'Black Numenorean sorcerer' who survived for centuries (eons?) through his magic.  He had no ring of power.  Also, the Seer Malbeth (advisor to the last King of Arthedain/Arnor, i.e. the Northern Kingdom of the Dunedain) is described as having the power of foreknowledge (he predicted that Arvedui would be the last king of an independent Arthedain, foretold the Fellowship's journey through the paths of the dead 1000 years ahead of time, etc.).  Beorn is described as 'a kind of magician' by Gandalf, and in any case obviously could change shape into a bear and had some kind of control over lesser animals.  During the Second Age, before they became corrupt, Tolkien describes the Numenoreans as able to communicate 'mentally' with their horses.  Etc.

Finally, every spell described in the LotR RPG is based on something found in Tolkien's books.

Another one to add is the Witch-King of Angmar, the most powerful of the Nazgul. He had been a magically powerful guy before he was enslaved by Sauron. As I recall, some of the other Nazgul were strongly implied to have been so as well.