Quote from: Abyssal MawI hate to flame you, but this is utter BS. Burning Empires is an amateur-designed game that I might be willing to support based on a few ideas about world and tech generation. But if this is really just saying "support our game because we're so superior to D&D playing munchkins.." then no sale. I don't buy from swine.

This seems a bit harsh.  I think that you can design a game that has mechanics that emphasize different aspects of the roleplaying experience without being an affront to other games.  Frankly I think that you are falling into the same us vs. them trap that you are decrying.  Hey, you can set whatever standards you'd like for the spending of your money, which is the beauty of a free market, but please don't get righteous about it.

For my purposes, the ideas that I have seen in the Burning Empires PDF that I downloaded are intriguing enough that I am considering buying the game.  I am also probably going to check out the graphic novels that it is based on for good measure.  If the setting is cool, the game mechanics are a good way to tell similar stories, and I can find a group of people who are game then I will give it a shot.


TGA

Quotewell, that seems to be a turn-off for some people with Forge games. Whether it is intentional or they are just misunderstod certain people over there seem to come off as some sort of RPG Messiahs.

I guess I just have a hard time accepting people who don't know what the fuck they are talking about as authority figures. I know! It's crazy. I have a similar problem spending my money on assholes who go out of their way to insult me. It's like a character flaw with me!

Okay, but seriously. I'm not looking for a game about characters that "have to spend artha" (whatever the hell that is) or work out their moral issues or anything like that. I want to play a game about characters that work together in a team oriented situation where we have sort of created the campaign world and everything on our own... and the whole point is to have futuristic adventures. D20 Future is great like that. Having an option to come up with world and tech details is cool. But in general, I don't like other people's settings. The details in the first post sparked my initial interst in Burning Empires. Subsequent posts on the matter doused that interest and replaced it with contempt. Thats all that happened.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianThis seems a bit harsh.  I think that you can design a game that has mechanics that emphasize different aspects of the roleplaying experience without being an affront to other games.  Frankly I think that you are falling into the same us vs. them trap that you are decrying.  Hey, you can set whatever standards you'd like for the spending of your money, which is the beauty of a free market, but please don't get a righteous about it.

It is a bit harsh, but in general, I agree with you. Someone *can* design a game that has mechanics that emphasize different aspects of the roleplaying experience without being an affront to other games. I'm all for it.  Design away and I wish that person all the best. Seriously. And heck, I may even support it! I bought Faery's Tale this year. It's brilliant.

And yes, I absolutely am falling in to the "us vs. them" situation. But when I say "us" I am speaking as a happy go lucky civilian, non-game designer, consumer, guy that plays RPGS, and potential customer. If someone- say some designer or representative fan-- chooses to put themselves in opposition to me, can they expect my support or customership or advocacy?

Quote from: Abyssal MawRule 0 in D&D only applies to character creation. It's about "check with the DM. There may be house rules about character creation"

Really? What is the exact reference and text for it?  Because D&D/AD&D certainly does and since at least 1e has had the text and the tone that explicitly gives DMs, among other things, the authority to just up and change things, rules be damned.

QuoteI hate to flame you, but this is utter BS. Burning Empires is an amateur-designed game that I might be willing to support based on a few ideas about world and tech generation. But if this is really just saying "support our game because we're so superior to D&D playing munchkins.." then no sale. I don't buy from swine.

Have you read it, or even leafed through it? I can't speak for everyone at The Forge, not in the least because I don't read or post there, nor can I speak about every game built by everyone there. But that is a gross mischaracterization of both the general quality of the Burning Wheel and Burning Empire books and Luke Crane's general attitude. By gross mischaracterization I mean opposite to actuality.  Perhaps you are lumping it and him in with other things that better fit you views?  It wouldn't suprise me that within the loose collective of The Forge you have some real turkeys.

Rule 0 is an actual Rule in the 3.0 and 3.5 PHB. I don't have the exact wording, but it's right at the beginning. It 's under a heading that says "Rule 0".

I'll admit that I have neither read Burning (wheel or empires), nor leafed through it. I will further admit that I am prejudiced against anything associated with the Forge.

I like to think my prejudices can be overcome. Although probably not by saying things like "D&D players do things like (totally inaccurate and insulting description), and we are totally different and superior!"

I could give a crap about Luke Crane or anyone else. I'm a customer, not a fan.

Quote from: Abyssal MawRule 0 is an actual Rule in the 3.0 and 3.5 PHB. I don't have the exact wording, but it's right at the beginning. It 's under a heading that says "Rule 0".

That text is located in the character creation section, but it isn't talking about only character creation. It is just giving a heads up warning about it. I'm pretty sure there is an older reference too, as that isn't actually a "rule" there. Or, and I don't think this is it, that might actually be the source for "rule 0" the shorthand of a number of different entries in the rules. Unfortunately my older AD&D books are packed away in boxes unknown right now so I'm not going to go find it.

In core of 3e the text about arbitrarily changing things around and the general authoritarian powers of the DM are more in the DMG.  Just having a separate book for DMs-only being an aspect of it.
I'll admit that I have neither read Burning (wheel or empires), nor leafed through it. I will further admit that I am prejudiced against anything associated with the Forge.
As one consumer civilian to another, I recommend it. At 25$ BWR and the Character Burner bundle is dirt cheap.  While it does come at things from a different angle than you are probably use to, it certainly has a lot of merit. Even if you don't actually play the game Burning Wheel has a lot of very good things in it. The dice mechanics alone are probably the best use of dice pools I've ever seen, and even the hardest core 1e AD&D guy that read it thought the dice mechanics superior to D&D's.

Note that it isn't like Burning Empires in that it is a far more general rule use set. On their web site they even have a freebie setting extension Serpent Sun that is sort of a Mad Max setting with a touch of mystic pychic powers.

In fact Burning Wheel is highly encouraging of all the players coming together and building the campaign setting.  Burning Empires is just a different game that is geared towards a particular product license, and as such is very much tuned to that purpose.

QuoteI like to think my prejudices can be overcome. Although probably not by saying things like "D&D players do things like (totally inaccurate and insulting description), and we are totally different and superior!"

I don't see that being said in this thread? It sounds to me a bit like the prejudice prepetuating the prejudice.

QuoteI could give a crap about Luke Crane or anyone else. I'm a customer, not a fan.

You certainly seemed to care about what you claimed to be his attitude. Which you were decidedly off on.

Quote from: Abyssal MawRule 0 is an actual Rule in the 3.0 and 3.5 PHB. I don't have the exact wording, but it's right at the beginning. It 's under a heading that says "Rule 0".

Actually it's "step 0". "Rule 0" sort of evolved from that as a terminology to refer to the general carte blanche of traditional GMing. (Which is touched on in other places throughout the books, particularly the DMG.)

It's odd that we are getting pro/anti-"forgeite" or "traditional" judgements getting thrown back and forth here, considering that Burning Empires takes the "player empowering" and "rules strict" stance that D&D 3.x gets derided for to a new level. It's sort of the opposite of the traditional trend of indepentant games.

At any rate, could we keep a little decorum folks? Can we accept that the BE approach may or may not be for all of us and still discuss it? Not having it yet, I am intrigued on how this whole "rules scripted" GM/player relationship plays out and if there is anything worth taking from it from a game design standpoint DESPITE the fact that I am a big "rule 0" advocate.

Blakkie- I'm not taking offense with Luke Crane (whoever this is) so much as I am rejecting it on the basis of you being a representative advocate.  I know thats totally unfair of me, and yet there I am. Also, I refuse to accept any dice pool mechanics as "superior" to anything. I can't stand dice pools. Personal quirk.

(Although once again, here's where I prove that I can overcome my prejudices sometimes.. Faery's Tale has dice pools! And I can't help but really like that game).

Hey Slaad:
Ok, ok. I'll have some decorum. I honestly showed up in this discussion to hear about BE and I got treated to a pointless discussion of how D&D players are all about the brow-beating and the GM arbitrarily yanking the rules carpet out from under the players.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadCan we accept that the BE approach may or may not be for all of us and still discuss it?

I doubt that it would be for everyone.  It is targetted very specifically at people that would like to play the genre of a space empire in slow decline, and are cool with having the general tone of the graphic novels that it is based around.

The precision of the rules might also feel really wierd for people used to just making rules up.

Plus you definately have to be of the mind of the GM sharing power more like card games or boardgames.  As a friend of my , the 1e AD&D fan and self-described 'grognard', noted after reading the first few chapters of Burning Wheel.  "D&D has the premise that players will munchkin and rules lawyer as much as they can until the point the DM puts his foot down.  Burning Wheel on the otherhand has the basic premise that players will be reasonable people."

While this second premise may or may not be true all of the time, working from that assumption the rules have defused a big source of conflict between players and GMs (as opposed to between characters played by these) by players having more control within the rules. Because people naturally tend to try control their destiny to one extent or another. So providing tools for players to do that in socially constructive manner tends to discourage the use of the socially pathologic methods.

Quote from: Abyssal MawHey Slaad:
Ok, ok. I'll have some decorum. I honestly showed up in this discussion to hear about BE and I got treated to a pointless discussion of how D&D players are all about the brow-beating and the GM arbitrarily yanking the rules carpet out from under the players.

Rest assured, my comment wasn't just directed at you. I'm usually the first person to cop an Al Pachino "are you talkin' to me" attitude when confronted with typical D&D derisions. But I am also more interested in actually hearing about BE in this thread than a debate over GM fiat or D&D's place in it. Though that could make for another interesting discussion...

I'll also cop that when I first heard about the conventions of BE, I thought it sounded a bit "McKrakenish"*. I would like to analyze the game to see if there's something worthwhile in its approach, or if it gets to join Synnibar in the 50% off bin.

* - For those not familiar, Raven CS McKraken was the author of Synnibar, a game that demanded the GM run adventures as scripted and explicitly provided the players with a "reset" plus bonuses and bennies if the GM failed to follow the rules. It is commonly ridiculed for this.

Quote from: Abyssal MawBlakkie- I'm not taking offense with Luke Crane (whoever this is) so much as I am rejecting it on the basis of you being a representative advocate.

Can I help it if you put yourself in direct opposition to my experience as a civilian customer?

QuoteOk, ok. I'll have some decorum. I honestly showed up in this discussion to hear about BE and I got treated to a pointless discussion of how D&D players are all about the brow-beating and the GM arbitrarily yanking the rules carpet out from under the players.

Not everyone that plays D&D falls into that, but sadly the D&D rules directly and indirectly encourage that.

Wow, your'e really selling Burning Empires to me now.

Listen, if you really want to talk about D&D, why not just open a thread up about it?

Quote from: Abyssal MawWow, your'e really selling Burning Empires to me now.

I'm not trying to sell it to you. Never was. In fact I entered this thread warning about expectations from the game.

Quote from: Abyssal MawListen, if you really want to talk about D&D, why not just open a thread up about it?

This all is coming from me using the DM and player role, as perscribed by the D&D rules, as a reference point to explain how it acts more like a wargame to reduce DM conflict of interest so that the GM and the players can play against each other on a roughly level playingfield.

Okay.

I'm really impressed with your collective knowledge of minutiae regarding a specific game mechanic.  I apologize for redirecting the thread down this path of inquiry.

That was then, this is now: May we please return to a discussion of Burning Empires, since I'm very curious about it?  

One of the key points of BE is that the players and GM create the world where the adventure takes place, then they Burn characters.

By time all of the characters and the World is burned, the adventure for the game basically falls right into the GM's Lab. The way the character creation works tells the GM " hey, this is what kind of game i want to play". So it is very important for the GM to know the PCs very well since much of the adventure is generate directly from the traits ans such of PC.