Anyone have this? Try it out yet? First impressions? How is the whole "cooperative world building" thing working? Do you like it in play? Does it have potential for portability to other games?

I'll get mine soon (ordering Friday when I get paid...). But until then, inquiring minds want to know.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadAnyone have this? Try it out yet? First impressions? How is the whole "cooperative world building" thing working? Do you like it in play? Does it have potential for portability to other games?

I'll get mine soon (ordering Friday when I get paid...). But until then, inquiring minds want to know.

I will speak of Buring Empires first, since I have read some of it. I have not played it yet.

So far I like it, though I'm not sure I will ever actually play it.

Some things that are cool:

• World Burner: basically you go through and pick one item from each section of the world burner and by the end you have a most finished world. You select everything from economy,geography, government, and all sorts of other things.  With some minor mods you could port the world burner into any Sci-Fi or Fantasy game. Easily the coolest idea so far in the book.
  
  
• Tech Burner: works somewhat like the world burner, but instead you are burning weapons and gear instead. Each element added to the weapon or gear raises the Resource check needed to aquired it. A resource check can be made @ any time in the game, ANY TIME. If you make it you just so happen to have that item handy. There are two types of tech you can burn "color" and "hard". Color tech is gear that you come up with that has no mechanical impact on the game, it just there to add to the setting. Color tech can be converted to mechanical tech @ which point it will have a mechanical impact on the game. Items generally start as color (a discription), but once you want to get an effect from the tech it becomes hard tech.
  
• Setting:At first it will remind you of warhammer 40k, but once you read on you realize that besides power armor an such it is quite different. Humanity is on a down swing and the Vaylen(sp?) are invading human space. The Vaylen start life as worms which are then implanted into other beings skulls and then the take control of their bodies. So you really never know who is human and who is Vaylen.
  

I'll post more later.

The tech burner and world burner parts sound very cool. The setting sounds kinda blah, but I think I could fix that right up.

The setting is very much hardwired into the game.  The game was built with direct input from the author of the graphic novels Shadow/Iron Empires novels.

http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/profile.php?sku=45-076

I've read a good deal of it. You are in for a lot of work, and occationally some disappointment, if you want to try extract that. Even the basic structure of the plots of those books are encoded deep into the rules. It is so structured a game that it borders on a hybrid of an RPG and wargame or boardgame. It is still very much a creative endevour like RPGs, it is just that you end up writing a new story very much in the style of those two graphic novels.


P.S. A lot of the extensive artwork found in the book is right out of the stories, and the rest is previously unpublished sketches and paintings from the artist/author of those two books. In fact the author, Chris Moeller, is hand-drawing the sketches in the limited edition books.  There is some very nice art in it indeed.

Huh. Well that kinda sucks. I'd much rather use D20 Future , do my own setting and maybe steal the subsystem of technology and 'world burning'.

Quote from: Abyssal MawHuh. Well that kinda sucks. I'd much rather use D20 Future , do my own setting and maybe steal the subsystem of technology and 'world burning'.

yeah the books is nearly worthless to extract setting info from. You would have to read the entire book from cover to cover to get it.


:rant: Of course by time you have done that you will have learned all the rules you will never use.

I have heard this game involves some sort of conflict between the players and the GM. Is this true? How does that work?

Quote from: Abyssal MawHuh. Well that kinda sucks. I'd much rather use D20 Future , do my own setting and maybe steal the subsystem of technology and 'world burning'.

What kind of setting are you looking to do?  I have considered this possibility somewhat.

Because stealing the subsystem technology is, well, it would be odd if you were doing it for a Burning Wheel game. By the time you try bring it into D20 Future all you are likely to have left is an idea.  Especially considering that you'd be leaving behind all that good Firefight combat stuff that is built to handle a modern and near-future battlefield rather than trying to superimpose a modern battlefield on top of a grid mapped medieval mentality.

QuoteOf course by time you have done that you will have learned all the rules you will never use.

I've become entirely convinced that gaming tables would be a lot happier if people would just play the rules that someone has already invested numerous man-years in tuning and cleaning up. Even if just for one campaign before they try pull stuff apart.

Quote from: VellorianI have heard this game involves some sort of conflict between the players and the GM. Is this true? How does that work?

There is no Rule 0. The GM doesn't unilaterally change, bend, or break the rules.  The campaign senario is drafted up cooperatively by all the players including the GM. World Burning and Tech Burning is all part of that as is creating the characters, NPCs and PCs. Also part of this is is allocating a set number of resources for each 'team', the player and 'team' and GM 'team'. The GM is limited to drawing from that, just like the players. Although there is some dicing involved in procuring items, as mentioned before, and you can aquire resources during play as well.

The scoring is a bit like tennis match scoring, with one team or the other being awarded a win/lose for each Scene/Conflict. See the Flow of the Game section on page 10 of the PDF 'The Face of Collapse' excert on this download page.

Please pardon my ignorance: is "rule 0" the ability of a GM to "dominate" a game and overrule the rules?

Quote from: VellorianPlease pardon my ignorance: is "rule 0" the ability of a GM to "dominate" a game and overrule the rules?

Yes. I don't remember which version, but I believe that was the specific name assigned to it in one or another edition of (A)D&D.  So it is closer to boardgames or war games where there isn't a DM/GM. The rules hold the balance of power in arbitration, although since there more rule grey areas than normally found in those games there are some nifty mechanics used to help keep the GM on a more even standing with the players.

Note also that the written rule mechanics are far more encompassing of the action in the game than say, for example, D&D. This is an important part of the objectivity.

Largely though it is the whole premise of the GM team vs. the player team permiates the whole of the rules, thus allowing the rules to take preventative measures to avoid a lot of the problems you typically run into when trying to run a game like that with an RPG.

EDIT: Note that it also does things to curb the munchkinism, rules lawyering, and general brow beating and other assorted anti-social behaviour that players often engage in to counteract/balance that GM power. So discouraging thngs that are actually encouraged in games like D&D. If you have ever played Burning Wheel, which is the basis for the game and shares a lot of these same properties, Burning Empires is an evolution of that system.

I was involved in the playtesting of the game and it is a fun ride.

Yes, it is absolutely GM vs. players.  During the first session, one of the PC's ended up in jail and one of the prison guards was going to try to shiv the PC and then put an alien in the PC's skull. The player said something like, "You aren't going to kill my PC the first game."

"Watch your ass, damn right I will."

He spent tons of artha and rolled well and got through it without me putting an alien in his skull.  Good stuff.  Nice to see the player sweat.

It is crunchy-fun stuff and I just received the book in the mail and its damned purty.

Rule 0 in D&D only applies to character creation. It's about "check with the DM. There may be house rules about character creation"

QuoteYes. I don't remember which version, but I believe that was the specific name assigned to it in one or another edition of (A)D&D. So it is closer to boardgames or war games where there isn't a DM/GM. The rules hold the balance of power in arbitration, although since there more rule grey areas than normally found in those games there are some nifty mechanics used to help keep the GM on a more even standing with the players.

Note also that the written rule mechanics are far more encompassing of the action in the game than say, for example, D&D. This is an important part of the objectivity.

EDIT: Note that it also does things to curb the munchkinism, rules lawyering, and general brow beating and other assorted anti-social behaviour that players often engage in to counteract/balance that GM power. So discouraging thngs that are actually encouraged in games like D&D.

I hate to flame you, but this is utter BS. Burning Empires is an amateur-designed game that I might be willing to support based on a few ideas about world and tech generation. But if this is really just saying "support our game because we're so superior to D&D playing munchkins.." then no sale. I don't buy from swine.

Quote from: Abyssal MawRule 0 in D&D only applies to character creation. It's about "check with the DM. There may be house rules about character creation"



I hate to flame you, but this is utter BS. Burning Empires is an amateur-designed game that I might be willing to support based on a few ideas about world and tech generation. But if this is really just saying "support our game because we're so superior to D&D playing munchkins.." then no sale. I don't buy from swine.

well, that seems to be a turn-off for some people with Forge games. Whether it is intentional or they are just misunderstod certain people over there seem to come off as some sort of RPG Messiahs.

I have not had any problems myself with any of the Forgites.:shrug:

Quote from: PakaYes, it is absolutely GM vs. players.  During the first session, one of the PC's ended up in jail and one of the prison guards was going to try to shiv the PC and then put an alien in the PC's skull. The player said something like, "You aren't going to kill my PC the first game."

"Watch your ass, damn right I will."

He spent tons of artha and rolled well and got through it without me putting an alien in his skull.  Good stuff.  Nice to see the player sweat.

I'm not sure that would go over very well with the players I have and the style of play they enjoy.  "Crunch" is a "bad thing" with them.  And we have enough player conflict with the interesting personalities as it is.  Injecting further conflict and competition would be, if you'll pardon the use of a very old simile, "like throwing gasoline on a fire."

It sounds interesting.  I'd love to read through it.  I'd love to try it with another group of people.  It just wouldn't fit with my group.