are there any games or systems known for having really good space battle rules? how is such a 3d thing even done?
You looking for use in an RPG or as a tacitical board game?
hard sf or cinematic?
Personally the better space battle systems I've played have avoided the 3d element all together, it adds very little enjoyment for a lot of pain in the arse rules.
My personal favourite as a tactical wargame is 2300AD's Star Cruiser system which plays much more like a sub commander like game, with sensors and missiles and being much more important than speed and lasers. Being able to locate your target in space before they locate you is the key, very realistic in some ways but not so cinematic. Hex based and 2d.
Another favourite is Star Warriors which was for WEG d6 Star Wars, this is much more like a dogfight between X wings and TIE fighters, and isn't remotely realistic but it's lots of fun and ties in with the RPG (although it would take the whole nights session to run, and bore the none pilots in the group). It's much more like an airplane combat game. Again 2d and hex based.
If you want rules for drift and thrust then there are games like Silent Death, personally I find this complicates matters.
I'm not sure what Full Thrust rules are like but I've heard good reviews.
RPG session wise the chase rules from Stargate SG-1 Undiscovered Worlds expansion or D20 Star Wars (first edition) are probably the better ones to use. No need for miniatures and turning the thing into a wargame so it won't take the whole session.
I'm not sure of any games that use 3D combat rules.
Why, my homebrew space combat game is the best! Super Starship Simulator!
Of course, the inherent problem is that the rules currently exist as random thoughts in my head and a few hundred scraps of notes arranged in the "no arrangement whatsoever" fashion.
It also aims to simulate a MMORPG with a sort of old school Star Trek starship battle feel, rather than "real" starship battles.
My favorite modern space combat system for an RPG is that in Traveller d20.
If you are looking for 3d combat, it won't be what you are looking for. The basic version is map-less. What I like about it is that it involves as many members of the crew as possible, meaning that some players don't sit by while the pilot and gunners get all the action.
It has a realistic motion add-on, but I have not used it.
I prefer my space battle rules abstract. Star Wars 1st ed was perfect, where spaceships had a speed rating expressed as dice, which were added to your piloting skill in order to catch up with/pull away from the other ship, and that distance was expressed as an abstract short/medium/long range.
Unfortunately, such systems rarely work well with multiple ships involved.
I don't remember Alternity's rules for positioning and such, other than that there was a sourcebook called Starships which had both a more detailed and a more abstract system. I do remember that it was designed to involve multiple PCs - one-man fighters were pretty sucky, it was much better to have a somewhat larger ship where you could have one person manning the sensors, one on the guns, one on the defense systems, one piloting, and one telling the others what to do (Leadership skill could give the other guys a bonus). That's one thing I really liked about it.
For larger scale engagements I am feverishly in love with "Trillion Credit Wars", a JTAS article born rulesset.
Are you thinking of "Trillion Credit Squadron" which was a Original Black Book Traveller adventure/supplement for the High Guard booklet? Which was designed to allow campaigns involving huge space navies.
No, Trillion Credit Wars is from 2003, it was published in an article series in SJGames JTAS. I used the battle system in it for the large fleet engagements in my Traveller Campaign. It was easy enough to explain non-Wargamers, hard sci fi enough for my Traveller fix. Quite nice, and without table hopping during the game.
I can also reccomend Brilliant Lances, if you want a single small ship style game, where the feeling is very much like single submarine vs. single destroyer, damage is very detailed and allows for intense character play. I also own Battle Rider, but never tried to actually played it. The system looked to detailed to introduce to non-Wargamers, especially since I had access to TCW.
I own Brillant Lances as well it owes a lot to Star Cruiser (but then they are by the same company).
Quote from: tleilaxuare there any games or systems known for having really good space battle rules? how is such a 3d thing even done?
Full Thrust rocks my socks. No 3d though.
Quote from: GRIMFull Thrust rocks my socks. No 3d though.
I gotta second this recommendation. Full Thrust is my default choice for starship combat if I am not worried about real physics, 3D movement, etc (which is almost always the case for me personally). Some highlights:
1. Quick and easy system - I can teach a newbie the system in 15 minutes and play a good-sized game with multiple ships on each side in under 2 hours. I have run it at cons many, many times and people loved it.
2. Genre flexibility - One of my favorite aspects of the game is that it is *very* easy to tailor it to multiple genres. I have designed Full Thrust conversions for Star Wars, Babylon 5, and the first Romulan War for Star Trek, all with very satisfying results.
3. Did I mention that it is free...
http://tinyurl.com/pl8h4
TGA
While I hate steve jackson :fu2: I must admit his company makes some good products, and in this case I would say that the ship construction and combat system in Gurps traveller is a good one, especially if you have the GT supplement "starships" to add in even more goodies and rules.
The one in GT:IW is OK, being basically a G4e version of the one in GT, but lacks the number of systems available for GT with starships.
I would recommend either system for a RPG themed space combat setting where the players are the crew of a ship.
Babylon 5 RPG has good rules, or so I heard. The second edition came out a while ago. You might want to check it out.
Quoteand in this case I would say that the ship construction and combat system in Gurps traveller is a good one, especially if you have the GT supplement "starships" to add in even more goodies and rules.
I really dig GURPS Traveller, but would never, ever use the Construction rules. Why? Imperial Measurements.
Quote from: SettembriniI really dig GURPS Traveller, but would never, ever use the Construction rules. Why? Imperial Measurements.
Hey, fine. If you're
that intolerant then
don't use the system.
QuoteHey, fine. If you're that intolerant then don't use the system.
Well I have all other Traveller Products and construction systems. They are all in metric units. As a lot of calculation is needed, I see no point in using imperial measures.
What makes GURPS construction rules superiour to Fire Fusion and Steel? Sell me on GURPS construction rules, I'm totally open.
Quote from: SettembriniWell I have all other Traveller Products and construction systems. They are all in metric units. As a lot of calculation is needed, I see no point in using imperial measures.
What makes GURPS construction rules superiour to Fire Fusion and Steel? Sell me on GURPS construction rules, I'm totally open.
Well, not having FF&S I can't compare the two fairly, but I have heard a lot about FF&S being a legendary game product.
As to gurps, I can say that when you get starships there are a lot of systems you can put on ships, and the construction system is modular and therefore quite easy to do quickly and efficiently. The system does capture the flavor of traveller with respect to the original system.
It even uses 20 minute turns, and the starships book allows you to increase RoF on weapons for a bonus if you buy enough reactor space to power the weapon for multiple shots.
The bummer is that some of the rules and systems require Gurps vehicles, but even so it's an excellent system and there's really no converting involved as everything is modular and you buy systems as modules.
QuoteThe bummer is that some of the rules and systems require Gurps vehicles, but even so it's an excellent system and there's really no converting involved as everything is modular and you buy systems as modules.
Well, I like my Megatraveller construction when I feel like spending not much time (with software). I have once designed something with GURPS vehicles, and I can tell you it's not fun, if you aren't born into imperial measurements. Where is the modular approach of GURPS better than the Modular approach of the LBBs?
Quote from: SettembriniWell, I like my Megatraveller construction when I feel like spending not much time (with software). I have once designed something with GURPS vehicles, and I can tell you it's not fun, if you aren't born into imperial measurements. Where is the modular approach of GURPS better than the Modular approach of the LBBs?
Again, I don't know as I was never in to LBB traveller, tho I had a chance to be and passed it up to my eternal regret.:(
All I can say is that the modular construction system in gurps traveller uses 'spaces' that represent 1 dton of liquid hydrogen, and that's the only measurement the ship building process uses till you get to the end and calculate mass and dimensions.
As to SJG using the American system of measurements, I actually repsect them for that even if I dislike jackson himself intensely. :fu2:
Some people just do not want the metric system forced down their throats on a bayonet like it was in most european countries that actually criminalized non metric measurments. Americans just wont tolerate that.
QuoteAll I can say is that the modular construction system in gurps traveller uses 'spaces' that represent 1 dton of liquid hydrogen, and that's the only measurement the ship building process uses till you get to the end and calculate mass and dimensions.
Which is like the LBBs.
QuoteAs to SJG using the American system of measurements, I actually repsect them for that even if I dislike jackson himself intensely. :fu2:
I can see how using imperial measurements reassures the US-User. Indeed it makes sense, as it is what people have grown up with.
QuoteSome people just do not want the metric system forced down their throats on a bayonet like it was in most european countries that actually criminalized non metric measurments. Americans just wont tolerate that.
Your nationalistic statement here is really funny. We could go off topic into next year with the musings about what "Americans" will "tolerate", especially with regards to forcing other people with bayonets. But that would lead to nothing. Let's just say, that for measuring volumes, the metric system is in every way superiour. How many gallons are in a cubic foot? Or hogsheads for that matter? Fluid ounces anyone?
How many ounces does a fluid ounce of water weigh?
Enough of that, back to Space Combat!
Quote from: SettembriniI can see how using imperial measurements reassures the US-User. Indeed it makes sense, as it is what people have grown up with.
Be that as it may, in the case of Traveller, I consider it unfortunate. I think it's more a matter that it's what GURPS Players are familiar with.
For me as an American, the only real thing that messes with my head is when I am dealing with things that day-to-day I see measured in Imperial units... like my height (cm vs. ft/inch notation) and weight (kg vs. lbs) and the speed of my car. When you are talking about how many tons a starship weight, it doesn't matter a whit whether they are metric or imperial tons. Just how many of said unit ship X has vs. ship Y.
A meter is close enough to a yard that it's fairly easy to grok either way. Long distance or high speed... familiarity takes on less relevance, and its more about the numbers. But the conversions are easier between contained unit. I always have difficulty, for example, remember feet in a mile. Meters in a km, OTOH, is simpler to recall for my decimal-thinking brain. And Traveller has always used meters.
QuoteI always have difficulty, for example, remember feet in a mile. Meters in a km, OTOH, is simpler to recall for my decimal-thinking brain. And Traveller has always used meters.
When you have to calculate between units, metric system is teh R0xx0rz!
BTW, if anybody can answer my fluid ounces to dry ounces of water question, I really want to know.
In the metric system:
1kg water = 1l water
1g water = 1ml water
what`s it with the fluid ounces? where do they come from?
Quote from: SettembriniWhen you have to calculate between units, metric system is teh R0xx0rz!
BTW, if anybody can answer my fluid ounces to dry ounces of water question, I really want to know.
In the metric system:
1kg water = 1l water
1g water = 1ml water
what`s it with the fluid ounces? where do they come from?
I think fluid ounces if a measurement of liquid volume, not weight. Measuring cups use it and they only measure volume, not weight.
As for the metric system, if it's feces doesn't stink why do countries like england have to force it down people's throats on a bayonet by making all other systems illegal? I've heard that store owners in elgnald who refused to switch to metrics for whatever reason were hunted down and fined until they bowed, or were driven out of business.
Sounds sort of like "fascism" to me.
if the metric system is so great then why must it be rammed down people's throats under threat of force? Why not just put it out there and let people choose it or the original way?
Is it because they might not choose the metric system and the people who support it can't stand to be disagreed with? Like I say, it sounds like fascism to me.
Quoteif the metric system is so great then why must it be rammed down people's throats under threat of force?
Because "people" resent any change. The british also resented their currency change. Now it's decimal and nobody wants it the old way anymore.
Be careful. Fascism is a lot harsher than implementing a unified system of measurements. Actually it is called democracy: Great Britain has signed international contracts because it is an EU Member. The government who signed the treaty was elected. We call obedience to that democracy, you know?
Maybe your just hyperboling, so be it.
But you have no clear understanding of the metric system, obviously, so we should drop that discussion. If you really care, I'll explain it to you in a different thread. It serves no purpose here anymore. In that thread you can also explain to me the merits of having different units called ounces for liquids and weights, and where those units come from. Maybe you can convince me of the use of the "hogshead" as a superiour way of expressing ship tonnage. I'm all ears.
DISCLAIMER: I know and do not condone making fun of imperial measures in day to day use. Quart or liter, yard or meter, kilometer or mile doesn't matter in day to day life. But when calculating in any scientific way the imperial measurement is totally bonkers and downright hindrance. I cannot see any redeeming fact there.
Quote from: SettembriniBecause "people" resent any change. The british also resented their currency change. Now it's decimal and nobody wants it the old way anymore.
Be careful. Fascism is a lot harsher than implementing a unified system of measurements. Actually it is called democracy: Great Britain has signed international contracts because it is an EU Member. The government who signed the treaty was elected. We call obedience to that democracy, you know?
Maybe your just hyperboling, so be it.
But you have no clear understanding of the metric system, obviously, so we should drop that discussion. If you really care, I'll explain it to you in a different thread. It serves no purpose here anymore. In that thread you can also explain to me the merits of having different units called ounces for liquids and weights, and where those units come from. Maybe you can convince me of the use of the "hogshead" as a superiour way of expressing ship tonnage. I'm all ears.
DISCLAIMER: I know and do not condone making fun of imperial measures in day to day use. Quart or liter, yard or meter, kilometer or mile doesn't matter in day to day life. But when calculating in any scientific way the imperial measurement is totally bonkers and downright hindrance. I cannot see any redeeming fact there.
Just remember one thing: The atom bomb was invented and built in America using american measurements.
Quote from: Dominus NoxI dislike jackson himself intensely. :fu2:
Why so? You've mentioned this twice in this thread, so I figured I'd ask.
I'll also chime in with a vote for Full Thrust as a good space combat system. As has been said, no 3D, but it seems the game is infinitely customizable.
By the way, if anyone who likes Full Thrust and Babylon 5 would like an "official" B5/Full Thrust game, try to locate the Earthforce Sourcebook for Chameleon Eclectic's defunct Babylon 5 RPG (which is not as good as the later d20/OGL version by Mongoose). The EFS has a space combat system based on Full Thrust and written by Jon Tuffley himself.
Here are some starship combat rules for Battlestar Galactica that use the d20 Future starship combat/d20 Modern vehicle combat rules as the basis, and which take 3D into account:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=513294
Quote from: ColonelHardissonBy the way, if anyone who likes Full Thrust and Babylon 5 would like an "official" B5/Full Thrust game, try to locate the Earthforce Sourcebook for Chameleon Eclectic's defunct Babylon 5 RPG (which is not as good as the later d20/OGL version by Mongoose). The EFS has a space combat system based on Full Thrust and written by Jon Tuffley himself.
Yeah, the Chameleon Eclectic B5 RPG was a real dog (particularly the art), but the Full Thrust-based space combat game was its one redeeming feature. Of course, before it was released I had spent months making my own B5 conversion for Full Thrust...and their's was much better. DOH! :p
TGA
Quote from: ColonelHardissonWhy so? You've mentioned this twice in this thread, so I figured I'd ask.
I'll also chime in with a vote for Full Thrust as a good space combat system. As has been said, no 3D, but it seems the game is infinitely customizable.
By the way, if anyone who likes Full Thrust and Babylon 5 would like an "official" B5/Full Thrust game, try to locate the Earthforce Sourcebook for Chameleon Eclectic's defunct Babylon 5 RPG (which is not as good as the later d20/OGL version by Mongoose). The EFS has a space combat system based on Full Thrust and written by Jon Tuffley himself.
Well, Jackson is apparently a texas neocon who allows right wingers to hang out on his forums and pretty much say anything they want, but he bans, or lets his dog, andy hackard, ban anyone who shows leftist tendencies.
On his forums you get banned for saying things that are true, but offend someone, unless the person or persons offended are democrats, liberals, or french.
I guess I hate jackson because he preactices "Texas political correctness", which is a variant of PC that allows for insults to be directed against democrats, liberals or the french but doesn't allow true things to be said that seem 'offensive' to other groups.
Oh, yeah, he uses Stalinistic practices on the forums, and I don't like that either.
Plus he allows andy hackard to ban people just because he doesn't like them personally, and without even giving a reason.
Meanwhile users like paladin are allowed to insult and attack users, sometimes bringing their mothers into the insult without consequence. He also attacks users after they've been banned, which is cowardly in addition to being despicable.
The whole SJG forums have been reduced to having 4 types of users:
Moderators.
People who write for SJG.
Toadies who suck off the mods at every opportunity. (Qoltar and the whole "Paul support group.)
Right wing assholes. (Paladin, Sam Cade.)
Every other user has either been banned or driven away.
I guess those are good enough reasons to hate him.
Another thing I don't like about stevie is his inability to deal with any disagreement with his decisions. I mean, he made the idiotic decision to release GTIW without a single, solitary piece of gear, then claims that because he had reasons to make that decision anyone who disagrees with it is wrong and doesn't understand his reasoning.
Hey, jackson! maybe we DO understand your reasoning, and STILl disagree with it. Quite a few people have blasted GTIW for it's lack of gear, but SJG treats all dissent as, and I quote andy hackard, "Whining".
I don't like arrogant people.
QuoteJust remember one thing: The atom bomb was invented and built in America using american measurements.
Is that a Stephen Colbert line?
EDIT: You dominus Nox, are off-kilter for sure. I like that. I will stop argueing with you from now on.
Quote from: SettembriniIs that a Stephen Colbert line?
EDIT: You dominus Nox, are off-kilter for sure. I like that. I will stop argueing with you from now on.
Hey, as an american I'm tired of 'the system' forcing what it thyinks is best on me and my country instead of obeyig the will of the people like it's supposed to.
As to the A bomb ref, I'm getting tired of people making americans out to be stupid, lazy, etc and just want to remind people that during the 20th century, America lead the world in technology, science and industry.
I know it's going downhill fast, but people still forget it's great achievements during the 20th century.
QuoteAs to the A bomb ref, I'm getting tired of people making americans out to be stupid, lazy, etc and just want to remind people that during the 20th century, America lead the world in technology, science and industry.
I love the USA. I think it`s a great country. It's also a science hothouse. Your arguments are weak, but your country is not, that is assured. Let's not fight where we are basically of the same opinion.