Quote from: Christopher Brady;829736In general rain and wind don't do major things to people in a land based environment until it hit the extremes, like 40mph+ gusts, which will affect aim for archers.  Rain, unless it's really hard, doesn't affect visibility much.

History disagrees. If you are playing a game where story or drama trump immersion and simulation ignoring the weather except when you want to use it to set a mood or have the odd tornado, typhoon, or blizzard occur makes sense. In a campaign that is driven by a immersion and simulation of a living world ignoring the weather is a weakness that detracts from a proper experience. The fact that weather not mattering most of the time is even a possibility seems a result of the player base living in developed countries with paved roads, trains, and subways.

Weather has a significant effect on travel especially in locations where the roads are unpaved.

• Due to snow melt or rain roads often turned into nearly impassable mud.
• Rain and significant cloud cover may make it difficult or impossible to tell where the sun is. This increases the chance of being lost.
• Before modern times road signs were non-existent except on major highways. During bad weather other travels would hold up at an inn meaning no one would be around to ask for directions which again increases the chance of being lost.
• Heat exhausts men and horses faster. Dry and hot makes acquiring sufficient water crucial but difficult.
• Ice and rain affect climbing by making roofs, walls, rocks, and cliffs slippery.

Weather also affects combat.

• Rain wets bow strings making them ineffective and makes matchlocks almost impossible to fire.
• You can try to keep your bowstring dry or your crossbow covered or your powder dry, but that means the archer/musketeer isn't ready to fire.
• Gusts and strong winds make accurate archery more difficult.
• Mud may mire horses or men on the battlefield e.g. Crecy.

Quote from: Bren;829805History disagrees. If you are playing a game where story or drama trump immersion and simulation ignoring the weather except when you want to use it to set a mood or have the odd tornado, typhoon, or blizzard occur makes sense. In a campaign that is driven by a immersion and simulation of a living world ignoring the weather is a weakness that detracts from a proper experience. The fact that weather not mattering most of the time is even a possibility seems a result of the player base living in developed countries with paved roads, trains, and subways.

Weather has a significant effect on travel especially in locations where the roads are unpaved.

• Due to snow melt or rain roads often turned into nearly impassable mud.
• Rain and significant cloud cover may make it difficult or impossible to tell where the sun is. This increases the chance of being lost.
• Before modern times road signs were non-existent except on major highways. During bad weather other travels would hold up at an inn meaning no one would be around to ask for directions which again increases the chance of being lost.
• Heat exhausts men and horses faster. Dry and hot makes acquiring sufficient water crucial but difficult.
• Ice and rain affect climbing by making roofs, walls, rocks, and cliffs slippery.

Weather also affects combat.

• Rain wets bow strings making them ineffective and makes matchlocks almost impossible to fire.
• You can try to keep your bowstring dry or your crossbow covered or your powder dry, but that means the archer/musketeer isn't ready to fire.
• Gusts and strong winds make accurate archery more difficult.
• Mud may mire horses or men on the battlefield e.g. Crecy.

Those tend to affect massive groups of people like an army.  But in terms of a PC group, a lot of those dangers can be out aside by 'staying home'.  But in a ship at sea, a simple wash of rain, a mere 5mm, could ruin your day, and your boat.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;830029Those tend to affect massive groups of people like an army.

And except for the mired on a battlefield they also affect small parties like PCs. Maybe the PCs can stay home and avoid the other effects of the weather, but staying home is an effect. One that will slow the pace of activity for adventures (not a bad side effect to my mind) and one that in a sandbox or world in motion campaign, an effect that will allow those willing to trudge through bad weather the advantage of initiative and additional actions. Which is why I said that ignoring weather in those sorts of campaigns seems odd and flawed.

QuoteBut in a ship at sea, a simple wash of rain, a mere 5mm, could ruin your day, and your boat.

Bailers?

Quote from: Bren;830033And except for the mired on a battlefield they also affect small parties like PCs. Maybe the PCs can stay home and avoid the other effects of the weather, but staying home is an effect. One that will slow the pace of activity for adventures (not a bad side effect to my mind) and one that in a sandbox or world in motion campaign, an effect that will allow those willing to trudge through bad weather the advantage of initiative and additional actions. Which is why I said that ignoring weather in those sorts of campaigns seems odd and flawed.

That's a fair point, but...

Quote from: Bren;830033Bailers?

Don't keep the ship moving forward.  The wash of rain affects sails' ability to catch the wind.

A simply patter of rain at sea stops most progress, on a ship.  Not to mention that bad wind can stall you for days.  Not so in a land adventure.

In general, and in my experience, weather effects are doubly annoying and dangerous when the PC are at sea than on land.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;830040That's a fair point, but...



Don't keep the ship moving forward.  The wash of rain affects sails' ability to catch the wind.

A simply patter of rain at sea stops most progress, on a ship.  Not to mention that bad wind can stall you for days.  Not so in a land adventure.

In general, and in my experience, weather effects are doubly annoying and dangerous when the PC are at sea than on land.

I thought wet canvass caught more air, hence the wetting of canvas in very light airs to catch more of the faint breeze.

How much weather stalls travel depends on the mode of travel and the type of weather. Yes fully sailed ships could be stalled in port or trapped in the doldrums for weeks at a time. Oared ships had some additional choices, but tended to be more susceptible to higher seas due to lower freeboards or the holes for the oars.

Wind tends not to end travel for land parties. On the other hand, cold weather or heavy snows could keep passes closed for weeks at a time trapping the land based party just as effectively as the ship waiting for a fair wind. High waters could make rivers unfordable for entire seasons. And mud could reduce the speed of small parties on roads from 30 miles per day to 5 miles per day or less. Weather is not a negligible factor on land or sea.

Quote from: Bren;830051Weather is not a negligible factor on land or sea.

I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying it's bigger factor at sea.  Simply because outside of port, the ship is more dangerous in a good rainstorm, than a forest or rocky plain. In the latter, there's more cover to wait it out.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;830062I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying it's bigger factor at sea.  Simply because outside of port, the ship is more dangerous in a good rainstorm, than a forest or rocky plain. In the latter, there's more cover to wait it out.

Fair enough. It's definitely harder to drown in a rainstorm on land than it is floating in the ocean.

this is why when i want to cross a sea i take an apparatus of kalawish

Quote from: tuypo1;830189this is why when i want to cross a sea i take an apparatus of kalawish

Which presents a few awesome possibilities for adventures on it's own.  Ocean currents are affected by weather, you know.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;830029Those tend to affect massive groups of people like an army.  But in terms of a PC group, a lot of those dangers can be out aside by 'staying home'.

Since when is that always feasible, or something the group is likely to be interested in doing?

There are scenarios on time clocks, and the party needs to be in the city of Shedra by the morning of the 4th no matter what, or the magic dingus absolutely needs to get back to the capital in time for the coronation ceremony.  There are groups on long journeys in wildernesses or on the open sea, or those for whom travel has to take place in the winter or in a monsoon season, and parking in an inn for several months just isn't feasible.

Beyond that, it doesn't need to be extreme weather to affect adventuring: run of the mill stuff can do so too.  My fantasy LARPing years had me camping in all manner of weather for over a decade, and I vividly recall an overnight downpour that flooded out our encampment.  Everyone's bedding had been soaked through, everyone's gear was sodden (which screwed more than one wizard, dependent on a ruined spellbook), everyone's clothes were soaked through, all the kindling was drenched, and we were a damn grumpy lot.  The only hot meal anyone had that morning was my doing, because I had the only Coleman stove on site, and I sure didn't have the wherewithal to feed seventy people.  (Weak tea and diluted cocoa for everyone was about it, as well as hot wash water, and it was just as well that I always pack a reserve tank of propane.)

Now that event drove me to ditch storing gear in duffles and cardboard boxes and buy a whopping lot of plastic tubs, a practice that's helped me a lot over the decades since, but even so: we were an impaired lot that day.  Short on sleep, short on food, sodden gear, and with our LARP's schedule, we didn't have the luxury of just forgetting about it and going home -- the event the next weekend was the next part of the scenario, and we just had to get the job done.

My point being, Ravenswing, is that in a land based campaign, there's always a choice, even if one of them is bad, but there's often a chance for safety first.  Often, in the middle of the sea, there isn't one that's actually safe.

There's a reason that sea voyages are still considered dangerous to this day in the real world, and a lot of that is the weather.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;830205There's a reason that sea voyages are still considered dangerous to this day in the real world, and a lot of that is the weather.

Actually I think it is the ocean not the weather. If your boat sinks in the middle of the ocean the question quickly becomes "How long can you tread water." If your cart sinks in a road that's turned into a muddy bog, usually that doesn't mean you are treading water....usually.

But I agree with Ravenswing that there are a lot of weather induced fail states short of death on land. Death is just a lot more up front and immediate during ocean travel.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;829736I guess, but I don't normally.  I guess you're right.  In general rain and wind don't do major things to people in a land based environment until it hit the extremes, like 40mph+ gusts, which will affect aim for archers.  Rain, unless it's really hard, doesn't affect visibility much.

But at sea?  Both those things, even light, can change the entire course (no pun intended, but laughter accepted) of the adventure or even campaign.  And that's not touching things like storms and the like.  On land, you've got a lot of chances for protection, caves, overhangs, even trees can lessen it, but on the water?  You're only protection is being tossed around like a rubber duck in a 4 year old's tub.

A fact my Albion players learned all too well in the last session, when they said "why risk the single-digit-percent chance of failure from a teleport when we can hop on a ship and be there in 40 days?"

If they're very lucky, they MIGHT actually get to Byzantium by the end of next session.