Has anyone checked out this Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2036759092/sorcerers-of-ur-turuk)?
Its from Graham Bottley/Arion Games, who was behind both Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2e and Maelstrom 2e, and it uses WEG's D6 rule system.
Essentially, each player creates the sorcerers and their household (consisting of 1 major character and 3 minor characters) that exist in a city set in a fantasy analogue of Persia. The sorcerers send out the members of their households to seek out secrets and magical power from ancient ruins and temples buried deep in the in desert sands.
There's some of Ars Magica in the setup, though the rules look less complex and there is less ties to a historical base in the setting.
The KS is for the rulebook, though a setting book is due next year.
The KS already has several rough draft chapters available, as well as one chapter laid out. The book looks straightforward, and the water colour art is beautiful (the poser art in the minor character section is not so good, but it is at least obfuscated to some extent).
The D6 system seems relatively untouched and presented simply:
- magic is free form (Star Wars' Force meets Ars Magica)
- minor characters are quick to make and partially randomly generated
- major characters and sorcerers are made as normal
- lots of exotic powers aside from magic exist like Holy Power, shapechanging etc
Though the concept seems narrow, I can see a lot of potential in the set up. The inbuilt structure in having each player create a sorcerer's household will produce gameplay in the form of intrigue and research. There is also a direct impetus for S&S style dungeon crawls, with a variety of appropriate characters.
Very interesting! Thanks for posting this!
Tell us more how this works with a group of players at the table if everyone is a different, and thus I assume competing, household.
Also, any links to Actual Play?
Quote from: Spinachcat;799504Very interesting! Thanks for posting this!
Tell us more how this works with a group of players at the table if everyone is a different, and thus I assume competing, household.
Also, any links to Actual Play?
The only information I have seen is from the draft documents that you get access to through the KS.
The base rules are pretty much an untouched D6 WEG. It is not clear exactly how it is intended to operate, but there are mentions that the players will choose appropriate PCs to play at different points in time:
QuoteThese characters may be actively played by the character in any scene where they are present, or their actions may simply be decided by their player. If an expedition is mounted, then generally a player will choose only one of his available characters to send. It will usually be a Soldier or Specialist character sent on a journey inside or outside the city, although in some cases a Servant will be a better choice for a particular player.
As such, I think there is some cooperation between Sorcerers intended. Maybe friendly rivalry may be what its aiming for. There are also Factions beyond that of the sorcerers, so there is definitely scope for external threats.
The examples of play are brief but talk about visits to a sorcerer's household and dungeon delving.
On further reading, the sorcerers are assumed to be part of the same household called a Vahnam. That would seem analogous to an Ars Magica Covenant.
This looks pretty interesting to me... its structure sounds similar to what my homebrew setting games have become, with most of the PCs being students or functionaries of a library/university, being sent out into the field to get samples and recover lost knowledge. At this point all the Players have multiple Characters to pull from depending on the assignment.
Also very enticing that it's based on Persian lore... so hopefully there will be Djinn and a lost city of brass.
I liked how the Sorcerer and Major Character are fully detailed, but the three Minor Characters are partially randomly generated. Not only does that make them easier to replace and eases the burden of creating them, but it adds some randomness at the bottom level.
Quote from: Skywalker;799518I liked how the Sorcerer and Major Character are fully detailed, but the three Minor Characters are partially randomly generated. Not only does that make them easier to replace and eases the burden of creating them, but it adds some randomness at the bottom level.
Where'd you see those details? I'm not spotting them.
Quote from: Simlasa;799520Where'd you see those details? I'm not spotting them.
They are in the draft documents. The Minor Characters chapter (7) is fully laid out. Major Characters and Sorcerers chapters (8 and 9) are in rough draft only.
Quote from: Skywalker;799500- magic is free form (Star Wars' Force meets Ars Magica)...
Any more on this? I'm always on the lookout for freeform magic, since I have yet to find a system that is both quick in play and versatile.
Quote from: apparition13;799579Any more on this? I'm always on the lookout for freeform magic, since I have yet to find a system that is both quick in play and versatile.
The draft magic chapter is the roughest of those provided so far, but it gives a good idea of what its like.
Sorcerers get 14D to spread over Magic Skills. There are 3 Controls and 10 Elements:
Controls: Summon, Destroy, Shape
Elements: Mind, Light, Nature, Spirit, Magic, Body, Fire, Air, Water, Earth
A spell consists of combining a Control and an Element.
TN for the casting is a factor of Range, Duration, Targets, Damage, Resist TN, Boost Stat/Skill/Item, Restore Wound/Fatigue/Sanity, Created Creature Stats.
You get 1 fatigue per TN of 10.
Stumbled across this randomly last week and have been on a D6 kick lately so stumped up for the hardcover. Very confident Graham will deliver something good based on track record, and it looks pretty easy to reskin to a different setting. Also keen to see how the freeform magic works out!
It's good to see d6 get a decent fantasy RPG, finally. I wasn't a big fan of d6 Fantasy.
In my experience free-form magic never really works. I'll be interested to see what he does with it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;799767In my experience free-form magic never really works. I'll be interested to see what he does with it.
I've always liked the idea of free-form magic... it seems closer to how I picture a powerful wizard, a Gandalf, using his powers... vs. the bean counting of 'Vancian' magic.
I keep seeking out games that claim to have it... but yeah, it never quite manages to hit the mark.
Kind of like simultaneous combat in wargames... that I haven't seen work well either.
To be honest, I am not a fan of free from magic either. But Atlantis and Hellas recently turned me around on the idea where the rules are simple, limited in use and easy to implement.
From what I have seen, Sorcerers of Ur-Turuk fits in that camp using what is the free form magic system in Star Wars (where you have 3 open skills but lots of defined uses) and expanding it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;799767In my experience free-form magic never really works. I'll be interested to see what he does with it.
It works reasonably well in Ars Magica... honestly, I leapt straight on this
because it sounded like another take on the Ars concept, and the setting sounded interesting.
Plus, as Derebar points out, Graham is a man you can trust. He gets shit done.
Quote from: Ladybird;799790It works reasonably well in Ars Magica... honestly, I leapt straight on this because it sounded like another take on the Ars concept, and the setting sounded interesting.
Plus, as Derebar points out, Graham is a man you can trust. He gets shit done.
Thank you for that! It is appreciated!
It has been in my head to write for a while because i know that AM, whilst a fantastic game, is just too much game for my players to agree to. So this is the rules and setting that my players would play.
The Freeform Magic is a combination of a Control and an Element (very much like AM) but then a Target Number is set by combining range, targets, effect etc. So you just "build" the spell you need.
Each combination will also have descriptions of what can be achieved.
Quote from: One Horse Town;799767In my experience free-form magic never really works. I'll be interested to see what he does with it.
Yeah the building blocks are always cool to think of, but put in use, the scale is frequently a problem as the designers don't do much with giving examples or help.
Heal a wound might be Shape Body for example, but what are the different thresholds for different wounds?
Regen a Limb might be Create and Shape Body, but tip of a finger, or bottom half of your body is what target numbers?
The GM can wing it of course, but then he's the one setting thresholds and limits for everything, at which point he's writing the most difficult part of the magic system himself and has to keep track of it all to make it consistent, so disintegrating a door-shaped section of identical walls isn't widely varying difficulty. So, one of the benefits of having the freeform system itself - the speed - is completely undercut.
Fascinating idea. Curious choice of system, certainly not a dealbreaker, but then I could never get D6 to work for me outside of Star Wars. The freeform magic system sounds simple enough and fun, though CRK raises some interesting objections (hopefully the writer(s) is(are) tackling them).
I might get it eventually, not for the game, but to mine for ideas from Persian history and myth.
Quote from: One Horse Town;799767In my experience free-form magic never really works. I'll be interested to see what he does with it.
It really works very well in Ars Magica.
Quote from: The Butcher;799811Fascinating idea. Curious choice of system, certainly not a dealbreaker, but then I could never get D6 to work for me outside of Star Wars. The freeform magic system sounds simple enough and fun, though CRK raises some interesting objections (hopefully the writer(s) is(are) tackling them).
I might get it eventually, not for the game, but to mine for ideas from Persian history and myth.
I will try and post a couple of examples of "spell" creation tomorrow. It seems to work well in the playtesting so far anyway!
Some answers to questions I posed to Graham:
- what is the estimated page count of the rulebook?
The page count will be somewhere in the 140-odd page range.... possibly anyway!
- will their be advice on running a troupe style game?
There will be a fairly comprehensive GM section, covering the gameplay style.
- is there enough setting material in the rulebook to get started?
There will be enough setting info to get started, and if we can hit the 5K target I will also make the chapters of the setting book available as they are written.
- any chance we will see a cover or logo mock up?
I need to give the layout of the cover more thought, but hopefully within a week I will have that.
- are the sorcerers rivals in their own Vahmans or allies in a single Vahman?
The default will be that the Sorcerers are all part of the same Vahnam, but it would be very easy for them to be separate and either friendly or rivals.
Quote from: CRKrueger;799807The GM can wing it of course, but then he's the one setting thresholds and limits for everything, at which point he's writing the most difficult part of the magic system himself and has to keep track of it all to make it consistent, so disintegrating a door-shaped section of identical walls isn't widely varying difficulty. So, one of the benefits of having the freeform system itself - the speed - is completely undercut.
As a player, this has never upset me... If things aren't the same each time, fine, it's magic not science. Maybe something about this wall is different.
Sure, it's a cop out, but in this case I don't think it's a big deal.
Quote from: Frey;799813It really works very well in Ars Magica.
I think free form magic tends to be more effort than its worth in a standard fantasy RPG, where a magic user is one option of many.
However, it works well in RPGs like Ars Magica as they are about wizards and their use of magic. As such, the flexibility and focus on magic is a major part of the game itself. I expect that the same will be true with SoUT, where the sorcerers are the main PCs and their exploration, gathering and use of magic a focus of gameplay.
I wouldn't say that it works well in Ars Magica either. It works, i won't deny it, but it's not very intuitive and whilst i don't think it's a problem that different groups will come up with different methods of creating what is basically the same spell, i don't find it very satisfying.
It's very hard to do and i'll give the first person to do it to my satisfaction at least 1 dollar. ;)
The magic chapter is meant to be up in draft by the end of this week, along with the combat chapter. That will be the bulk of the mechanics, though I am interested to see whether the Vahnam chapter will have any mechanics for running it as a group.
Quote from: bottg;799815I will try and post a couple of examples of "spell" creation tomorrow. It seems to work well in the playtesting so far anyway!
Now we've got you here Graham, any chance a) you'll be up to Conpulsion next year, and b) you might be persuaded to take Sorcerers for a whirl? ;)
Quote from: Derabar;800110Now we've got you here Graham, any chance a) you'll be up to Conpulsion next year, and b) you might be persuaded to take Sorcerers for a whirl? ;)
Absolutely! I live a damn site closer to Edinburgh now, so it is not so much of a trek for me. And SoUT should be all done, finished and out there by then so i would love to run a game or two!
#rpgnet Q&A set for 12/4, 7 p.m. Central! :)
The draft of the Minor Character creation chapter is now available to the public.
Also, the rough draft of the combat chapter went up. It looks most like Star Wars 1e in terms of complexity, being nowhere as complex as either Fantasy D6 or Star Wars 2e, but not quite as simple as Mini-6.
Looks like first stretch goal is reached, being maps. The adventure will be great, but if we get to £5,000 it almost doubles what each backer gets.
Quote from: bottg;800337Absolutely! I live a damn site closer to Edinburgh now, so it is not so much of a trek for me. And SoUT should be all done, finished and out there by then so i would love to run a game or two!
Fantastic - sign me up now!
Argh! Do I really need another system to feed my S&S habit?!
...probably.
Quote from: Natty Bodak;801049Argh! Do I really need another system to feed my S&S habit?!
...probably.
At least this one has a relatively fresh angle on the genre :)
This looks great. I hope I get a review copy.
There must be something in the water; a few weeks back I got the "Puertas de Ishtar" RPG, a spanish-language RPG on a similar vein.
I've been trying to cut back on the number of Kickstarters I'm getting involved in as I've spent a lot on them the last couple of years and only had a handful deliver so far (though I'm confident all of them will do eventually). However, despite that, I've just backed this.
It sounded pretty interesting when I first heard about it a few months ago and I do have a soft spot for the D6 system. More important though is the idea of a game that plays like a lighter version of Ars Magica. I've got Ars Magica and it's a great book but I could never persuade anyone I know to play it because they would find it too dense and intimidating to get into. D6 is a different matter altogether though.
Look forward to reading this.
Graham is a slick KS operator. I am pretty sure that this will be released when he says it will be :)
Do we know if the hardcover also includes the PDF?
Quote from: Natty Bodak;801185Do we know if the hardcover also includes the PDF?
All tiers include the pdf version, and i will also do a print-friendly one with no art or colour. This of course will be available as soon as the layout is finished.
I'm definitely liking the look of the setting for this one.
Posted by bottg on RPG.net from an upcoming update:
QuoteThe Alulim
The Alulim, or Ancients, were a much earlier civilisation that lived along the coast now occupied by the city states. They were human-like, having the same basic form, but being much taller and slimmer. Stately and bronze-skinned, they appear to be hairless according to the few engravings that still exist. These Alulim are known to have been great users of magical energies, and were capable of far more powerful spells than human Sorcerers.
It is also known that these Alulim were loners, preferring to live in solitude in the deserts, along the coast or amongst the mountain ranges. Each built an extensive house according to his or her own whims; some were impossibly tall towers, some were sprawling mansions and others were carved caves in the hills or mountains. Within their own home, these Alulim spent their days imbuing objects with magical energy, although the exact reason for this is lost in the mists of time. Rumour suggests that they were enchanted items designed to make the life of their creator easier by performing minor tasks such as heating water, although no human Sorcerer has ever managed to get an artefact to do anything.
Outside their homes, the Alulim kept early humans as both slaves and livestock. These were housed in long barns, corralled by glowing lines of energy and slaughtered for food on those occasions when the ancients decided they needed to eat.
Although the Alulim built no villages, towns or cities, they did raise huge ziggurat temples in certain holy locations. There is now no record of which Gods these temples were raised to or what their ultimate purpose was, but they remain mostly intact in the wilderness, full of chambers and tunnels.
The Alulim ruled the coastlands for many millennia, although ruled is possibly not the correct term as they seemed to have no significant civilisation as such. Then, according to legend, every living Alulim vanished on the same day, their active magics failing at the same time. Their human livestock escaped their "farms" and fled to the coat, later becoming the civilisation we know today. No live Alulim has ever been seen, although mummified remains are found from time to time.
Backed it a few days ago, really looking forward to it. I'm a sucker for S&S as well as settings which have a Arabian Nights feel to them so this was a no brainer for me. I think my current players will be excited to try it out as well so I'll probably start this after I close out my Lace and Steel campaign later next year.
Quote from: bottg;801193All tiers include the pdf version, and i will also do a print-friendly one with no art or colour. This of course will be available as soon as the layout is finished.
Thanks!
Quote from: Skywalker;801181Graham is a slick KS operator. I am pretty sure that this will be released when he says it will be :)
I don't doubt it! :D
The quality of Maelstrom Domesday was very high and I've really enjoyed all the AFF 2e books so far. This gives me plenty of confidence in Graham's abilities and was ultimately what sold me on this KS.
Yeah, everything he's done has been awesome so far!
This has entered its final week and it looks close to getting the 5k stretch goal, meaning everyone gets the setting book in PDF (and discounted POD) for free. But its going to need help.
The KS is in its final 5 days and needs more support.
The magic chapter has been made available. It follows what was in the overview and confirms:
- Artefacts found in the desert give CPs to increase magic skills. Magic skills cannot be increased with CPs normally.
- Magic is not able to be used to know or transmute things. It is also not permanent.
- Magic seems to originate from an ancient Sumerian analogue society.
- Magic is very flexible, though it may be tricky to use it fast in combat and the like.
I remain impressed in how Graham is keeping the rules simple and straight forward, even in the most complex part of the game. It really supports his choice of Open D6.
The Magic Chapter is now finished, and so i am going to create 10 "spells". In game these could be created on the fly or recorded as stock spells, to be modified as needed:
Glowing Orb
Firebolt
Polymorph Other
Heroism
Heal Severe Wounds
Charm Person
Mass Courage - Boost Courage Skill or Change thoughts
Insect Plague
Chasm Bridge
Animate Water Elemental
Glowing Orb
Summon+Light
Range: 10’ (+3)
Duration: 1 hour (+6)
Target: Self (+0)
General: Limited Animation (+5)
Target Number: 14
Fatigue: 2
This spell creates a small glowing orb that sheds good light over a 10’ radius area. The bobbing globe will follow the caster at head height, but may be sent ahead at walking pace as long as the globe remains in sight.
Firebolt
Summon+Fire
Range: 50' (+5)
Duration: Instant (+0)
Targets: 1 target (+5)
Damage: 6D6 (+10)
Target Number: 20
Fatigue: 2
This general purpose attack spell will do the same damage as a strong man with a sword, but can strike from 50' away and could possibly ignite a flammable target. The caster fires a single bolt of elemental flame which bursts against the target, burning them.
Polymorph Other
Shape+Body
Range: Touch (+1)
Duration: 1 hour (+6)
Targets: 1 target (+5)
Change: 100% (+15)
Target Number: 27
Fatigue: 3
This potent spell will allow a sorcerer to change a human into another creature of similar size, such as a donkey, lion or dog. Variants of the spell will allow the target to become a smaller or larger creature. The target gains all normal physical abilities of the target creature, but retains their own mind. The target may resist the effect.
Heroism
Shape+Body (minimum Body 3)
Range: Touch (+1)
Duration: 10 rounds (+4)
Targets: 1 Target (+5)
Boost Statistic: Might +3 (+9)
Boost Other: Melee Weap+3 (+6)
Boost Other: Armour +3 (+6)
Target Number: 31
Fatigue: 4
This difficult spell makes a warrior much more formidable for a limited period of time. It adds 1D to the Might (and thus damage) of the character, as well as 1D to their attack roll. It also grants an extra +3 natural armour as the skin hardens.
Heal Severe Wounds
Summon+Body
Range: Touch (+1)
Duration: 1 Week (+13)
Targets: 1 Target (+5)
Restore: 2 Levels (+6)
Target Number: 25
Fatigue: 3
This spell will restore a Severely Wounded character to full health, keeping those wounds closed for 1 week. After that time the wounds will re-appear and will need to be treated by a physician or left to heal by natural means (unless the spell is re-cast).
Q&A tonight at 7 p.m. Central!
http://tinyurl.com/rpgnetchat
Charm Person
Shape+Mind
Range: 10' (+3)
Duration: 1 hour (+6)
Targets: 1 target (+5)
General: 2 levels (+10)
Target Number: 24
Fatigue: 3
This spell will improve the attitude of the target by two steps, so a hostile character would become neutral, an unfriendly character would become friendly and a neutral character would become an ally. The target may attempt to resist the spell, which lasts for 1 hour. This spell does not force the target to take any actions, but merely changes their outlook. Hostile action on the part of the sorcerer towards the target may worsen their outlook again.
Mass Courage
Summon+Mind
Range: 50’ (+5)
Duration: 10 rounds (+4)
Targets: 10 targets (+16)
Boost Other: Self Control +3 (+6)
Target Number: 31
Fatigue: 4
This spell will inspire up to ten allies of the caster with increased courage, by boosting their Self Control skill by 1D (or granting them the skill if they don’t already have it). This will help every target avoid the effects of fear or mental domination.
Insect Plague
Summon+Nature
Range: 1 mile (+10)
Duration: 1 day (+10)
Targets: 500' radius (+22)
Summon Creature: 3 levels (+9)
Target Number: 51
Fatigue: 6
This powerful and difficult to cast spell will create a plague of locusts over a whole village up to 1 mile away (although the caster must be able to see the village). These locusts will spread out naturally into food stores and nearby fields and will spend the next day stripping every plant of its leaves.
Chasm Bridge
Summon+Earth
Range: Touch (+1)
Duration: 1 hour (+6)
Targets: 20' radius (+16)
General: 2 levels (+10)
Target Number: 33
Fatigue: 4
This spell will create a bridge of stone over a chasm up to 40' long and 10' wide. The bridge will be strong enough to support people and small pack animals, but not a cart or wagon. The bridge will start from a spot touched by the sorcerer and arc to the far side. As soon as the arc finishes forming, it becomes a normal stone arch and so unless the far side hit a solid surface, the arch will crumble.
Animate Water Elemental
Shape+Water
Range: Touch (+1)
Duration: 10 rounds (+4)
Targets: 1 target (+5)
General: 6 levels (+30)
Target Number: 40
Fatigue: 4
This spell will animate water from a large body such as a lake, river or sea into a hulking humanoid form that may be commanded by the sorcerer. Although only lasting for 10 rounds, the creature has the following statistics:
Might: 7D
Agility: 3D
Wits: 2D
Toughness: 7D
Perception: 2D
Melee: 4D
Damage 8D
Nice :)
The RPG.net chat from last night is here:
https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/qa-graham-bottley-sorcerers-of-ur-turuk/
Backed
Looks like we are about to hit 4k :) Over 3 days to get to 5k!
Coming up to the last 2.5 days. £4k breached, second stretch goal reached and 180 backers.
It's still needs a good push to get this up to seeing the setting book PDF for free, but it's looking possible.
Quote from: Skywalker;802790Coming up to the last 2.5 days. £4k breached, second stretch goal reached and 180 backers.
It's still needs a good push to get this up to seeing the setting book PDF for free, but it's looking possible.
Especially as there has been a bit of a surge today. Less than £700 needed and 42 hours to go...
199 backers. Awesome :)
EDIT: Make that 200 :)
This is looking more and more interesting. I am a tad unsure about D6 for S&S, but the setting sounds cinematic and unusual. I definitely like the Alulim with their tremendous towers and sprawling mansions.
Has anyone used D6 for S&S?
S&S has pulp roots that aren't too different from Star Wars in sensibilities TBH with its pulp action and competent yet not superheroic characters.
With the added options in combat, less character points but still high powered fate points, and the magic system, it seems like it is also tailored to S&S specifically too.
EDIT: less than £500 to go to two books and over 24 hours to do it!
Quote from: Spinachcat;803086Has anyone used D6 for S&S?
I haven't, but presumably (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D6_Fantasy)someone has.
D6 Fantasy isn't designed for just S&S, but for all types of fantasy RPGs with a particular focus on D&D style fantasy.
I wasn't that impressed with D6 Fantasy TBH. It seemed to be of the school of thought that what D6 needed was more complexity and options, much like the path Star Wars 2e R&E took, rather than embracing its simplicity like Star Wars 1e and Mini-6 (and Sorcerers of Ur-Turuk) do.
I do hope we see the Introduction Chapter and more artwork before the end. It's not often that an RPG artist is one who has had his work displayed in a national art gallery or done a portrait of members of the royal family :)
Quote from: Skywalker;803275I wasn't that impressed with D6 Fantasy TBH. It seemed to be of the school of thought that what D6 needed was more complexity and options, much like the path Star Wars 2e R&E took, rather than embracing its simplicity like Star Wars 1e and Mini-6 (and Sorcerers of Ur-Turuk) do.
Fair enough. Like D6 Space, it is an outgrowth of 2E R&E.
Less than £200 to go to two books and over 12 hours to do it!
What is the expected shipping cost to the USA?
Quote from: Spinachcat;803365What is the expected shipping cost to the USA?
You find that the exact cost when you put in your pledge. KS changed that aspect recently. It was 9 pounds to NZ IIRC and it ships out of the UK.
I am guessing that shipping of the setting book, if you decide to grab the discounted POD will be at a similar rate.
And it's done and we made it to £5000. :)
Congratulations!
A very close thing TBH.
I did learn that KickSpy is a better predictor of results than KickTraq overall, which is useful for later KSs. KickSpy uses a weighting system against comparable KS. KickTraq uses the KS's previous result to extrapolate forward, and doing so generally fails to take into account common KS trends like the usual surges at the beginning and end of each KS.
I've only seen the free Chapter 7, and based on that I must say I wish someone else would take care of the layout. I don't mean to be harsh, but I really think it's doing the game a disservice. The layout totally ruins the mood and it's not doing the watercolour illustrations any justice. At least the sketch-style digital art is going to be replaced, apparently, so it's gonna look just a little less like a game from 2002.
Quote from: bottg;802381The RPG.net chat from last night is here:
https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/qa-graham-bottley-sorcerers-of-ur-turuk/
Great read, especially about the (amazing) art.
Quote from: f13;803827I've only seen the free Chapter 7, and based on that I must say I wish someone else would take care of the layout. I don't mean to be harsh, but I really think it's doing the game a disservice. The layout totally ruins the mood and it's not doing the watercolour illustrations any justice. At least the sketch-style digital art is going to be replaced, apparently, so it's gonna look just a little less like a game from 2002.
Graham is an efficient operator. He works wonders on a very small budget and gets his games out on time. One downside is that he generally doesn't have the budget or time to polish his games in terms of layout to the highest degree.
I am cool with that though. The layout could be prettier, but I thinks its pretty good compared to many RPGs produced on the same budget. It does reinforce the mood of the book and it also works from a utility perspective, which is one of the main purposes of layout.
Does that mean its a disservice? Its a product of the factors surrounding the game and it is good on balance of those. Hopefully, when more people pledge like we did, the layout will improve, as we have seen with the digital art :) But expecting it otherwise is getting the cart before the horse.
Quote from: Skywalker;803880Graham is an efficient operator. He works wonders on a very small budget and gets his games out on time. One downside is that he generally doesn't have the budget or time to polish his games in terms of layout to the highest degree.
I am cool with that though. The layout could be prettier, but I thinks its pretty good compared to many RPGs produced on the same budget. It does reinforce the mood of the book and it also works from a utility perspective, which is one of the main purposes of layout.
Does that mean its a disservice? Its a product of the factors surrounding the game and it is good on balance of those. Hopefully, when more people pledge like we did, the layout will improve, as we have seen with the digital art :) But expecting it otherwise is getting the cart before the horse.
I certainly respect that, especially the part about getting out his games on time. What I mean is that there's stuff in there he's doing that's actually taking extra time (strokes and shadows and funny-shaped boxes and textures and more strokes and shadows) and isn't really doing anything either from an utility perspective, either from an aesthetic one. In my opinon, a simpler design would do a better job and also save time and money. I'm attaching a sample page only as to illustrate my point, not necessarily to say that my design is better or whatever. (I put 27 in there just because it looks better than 66. That's the kind of guy I am. Don't count on me for proper page numbering).
(http://i62.tinypic.com/33u4fes.jpg)
The page on the right is easier to read due to the larger font size and the simpler background color. The left side looks to have a parchment effect that would be really nice on a 2-3 page handout but makes it harder for me to read the text in a game supplement.
I'm on the fence regarding the picture frame around the art. On the one hand the frame on the left makes it look like a literal window into another world which is cool. On the other hand, the picture on the right without the frame makes it seem like the rules and the world are one which is also nice.
Of course no one asked my opinion so it is worth about what you paid for it. ;)
The layout will be tweaked and revised now that the KS is finished, and i do really like that one on the right!
My next job is to get all of the text finished by the end of next week, and then i will revisit layout. I will post some samples here if you are OK looking them over? It is quite a difficult job. On the one hand i have a vision in my brain for how i want it to "feel", but on the other hand, sometimes the creator is too close to see how it will look.
Add to that the fact that a page or two printed out will look very different from a whole book laid out that way!
I appreciate all of the thoughts though, so keep them coming!
Quote from: bottg;804077The layout will be tweaked and revised now that the KS is finished, and i do really like that one on the right!
My next job is to get all of the text finished by the end of next week, and then i will revisit layout. I will post some samples here if you are OK looking them over? It is quite a difficult job. On the one hand i have a vision in my brain for how i want it to "feel", but on the other hand, sometimes the creator is too close to see how it will look.
Add to that the fact that a page or two printed out will look very different from a whole book laid out that way!
I appreciate all of the thoughts though, so keep them coming!
I know it's difficult and I sympathize with you. You shouldn't necessarily listen to me, as a designer I get obsessed with minutiae (like bad letter-spacing and grid misalignment and stuff like that) and see those as glaring mistakes, when they're really of little significance in the big picture. As you can see from Bren and Skywalker's replies, you're doing a good job and I'm certain your supporters and future buyers will be happy with the book. I know I'll buy it (as I was unable to support the kickstarter, unfortunately).
What made me react was that I felt that, since they're such a great asset for setting the mood, the watercolours should be given more space to breathe (and brightened up a bit, see attachment, I noticed the image was a little dull). I'd fill pages and maybe even full spreads with them, at the expense of character illustrations, which I don't like no matter the game or artist (another reason why you shouldn't listen to me, since that's a lifelong tradition for rpgs).
(http://i58.tinypic.com/ay3q01.jpg)
Quote from: f13;804083What made me react was that I felt that, since they're such a great asset for setting the mood, the watercolours should be given more space to breathe (and brightened up a bit, see attachment, I noticed the image was a little dull).
I only noticed the brightness difference subconciously. Now that you point it out, I can see that part of the reason the picture on the left is looking through a window is because it has less brightness than the picture on the right. Interesting.
Actually, I've only changed the brightness in the last picture :)
Quote from: Bren;804138I only noticed the brightness difference subconciously. Now that you point it out, I can see that part of the reason the picture on the left is looking through a window is because it has less brightness than the picture on the right. Interesting.
Quote from: f13;804144Actually, I've only changed the brightness in the last picture :)
Hah! So not so interesting after all. Another good theory ruined by facts. :)
I've backed this! Reminded me a lot about Ars Magica (which is a good thing IMO), but the D6 system is a lot more intuitive and basically simpler rule set. Setting wise I was intrigued as well...gave me immediately thoughts about Irem and doing something with a Cthulhu vibe.
About the layout: I like the right page more than the original (left) page, but I'm especially interested in the content. I don't care too much about the layout to be honest...
The first books are arriving for backers. The end result is larger (180 pages) and prettier than the drafts.
Any one know when this will be released for sale to the general public? Eastern adventure settings have a special place in my heart, and the book looks absolutely beautiful.
Quote from: Battle Mad Ronin;834748Any one know when this will be released for sale to the general public? Eastern adventure settings have a special place in my heart, and the book looks absolutely beautiful.
I imagine pretty soon after KS Backers get theirs and it will be via DTRPG and Arion Games' own store.
Quote from: Battle Mad Ronin;834748Any one know when this will be released for sale to the general public? Eastern adventure settings have a special place in my heart, and the book looks absolutely beautiful.
I am hoping to order the Backer Premium Hardcovers tomorrow (the last tier to fulfill), and so the book should be available for general sale in the middle of next week with any luck!
Quote from: Skywalker;834723The first books are arriving for backers. The end result is larger (180 pages) and prettier than the drafts.
I can confirm the arrivals, it was a nice surprise:).
I like the system, too, although that's not a surprise given that I'm a backer.
There's now a 50% chance of me running SoUT, and 50% odds of me running Feng Shui 2 at the local bi-monthly RPG event;).
Just to let you know that the pdf version is now available, with a coupon being sent to customers when the print version is available next week:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/148520/Sorcerers-of-UrTuruk (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/148520/Sorcerers-of-UrTuruk)
I am being interviewed about the game this evening:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GL0Lh5u5LY
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+TheRogueDM/posts/UhyCMrr3C3Q?cfem=1
Quote from: Battle Mad Ronin;834748Any one know when this will be released for sale to the general public? Eastern adventure settings have a special place in my heart, and the book looks absolutely beautiful.
At last i was able to get all of the backer copies out and the full game is now available from RPGNow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/148520/Sorcerers-of-UrTuruk (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/148520/Sorcerers-of-UrTuruk)) or our Webstore (http://store.arion-games.com/Sorcerers_of_Ur-Turuk/cat2182565_2871995.aspx (http://store.arion-games.com/Sorcerers_of_Ur-Turuk/cat2182565_2871995.aspx))