I've been known to introduce family members to characters whose backgrounds don't specifically that they don't exist.  The younger brother who's done better career-wise, and is quietly disapproving; the sister who turns up with the wrong man on her arm; the father who mysteriously disappeared when the character was a child and turns out to be bit of a wheedling bum.  Fun stuff that none of my players ever objected to, perhaps because the NPC family members I introduced never drove the plot, unless the players specifically asked them to.

I never had to force a family member back from the dead, though, because I've never had players try to play that Man-With-No-Past concept.  I tried it once, though, but my best friend came up with a character so much akin to mine, we decided that we were half-brothers.

!i!

Seriously though, if you got them as a disadvantage in a point system then you'd better accept that at some point they'll be used to get leverage against you.

Quote from: JimBobOz...Am I being too harsh? Or do some GMs really want us to all create the Loner Badarse?

It's kinda of like Gene Hackman's surveilance expert in The Conversation - "I have no one..."

Either the players create npc friends or relatives who may get into trouble or the pcs become attached to people (during the course of the campaign) who may get into trouble. With my group, these kind of relationships are part of what makes gaming interesting. The trick is making these characters independent from the pcs. They have their own agendas and goals and the pcs may get drawn into them.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David JohansenSeriously though, if you got them as a disadvantage in a point system then you'd better accept that at some point they'll be used to get leverage against you.

I think this whole GURPS/Champions-ism is part of what has caused the problem with family members.

When you define having a family as a "disadvantage", that gets you bonus points, it encourages thinking of family only as a liability that has to cost the PC, by all concerned.

Also, what kind of fucked-up psychological statement does that make about certain gamers (and game designers) where Family are considered a "disadvantage"?!

RPGpundit

I agree, the language is a problem, part of the overall problem with many point-buy systems. They started trying to balance characters for maximum effectiveness, then they mixed that in with bribing players for having a background. Except...in many cases, it's good to have so-called disads since they make your character the focus of the adventure, or at least provide a hook for adventure, which is what you're after anyway.

Quote from: RPGPunditAlso, what kind of fucked-up psychological statement does that make about certain gamers (and game designers) where Family are considered a "disadvantage"?!

As are Honesty and Truthfulness...
But those are just words for general gaming categories. And as I stated above, it's actually a neat way to tell the GM that he's allowed to have fun with the family details. Write about your brother in the background without and attached disadvantage and you're basically telling him that you don't want to rescue him from the goons of evil Dr. Darmverschluss...

But I'm generally not a big fan of disadvantages anymore. Steffan O'Sullivan (creator of Fudge) wrote quite some time ago that he gave his players 140 points and didn't give them points for disadvantages. Since then, that's the way I do it with most ad/disad games...

And what puts me at odds with the entire board?

I have family, sure.  I see them maybe once a year, if that, and I don't particularly like them or dislike them.  I, Spike, DO NOT CARE.


Why in the name of all that's holy would I go out of my way to try and play a character who DOES have a lot of personal connections???

Loner Badass is my default state.   Okay, Badass is debateable. It's hard to keep that up as I get older and lazier...

Spike, I despise most of my family, and try to avoid them. That doesn't mean that my family doesn't play a significant role in the "story" of my life. Usually as annoyances, often as complications, sometimes as advantages (as does family name, etc), but rarely, if ever, as kidnap victims.  

Every person's family gives them a set of advantages and disadvantages as well as simple details, all of which matter.  In many RPGs (though not all, as I stated earlier) family does matter, and a GOOD GM will not create a scenario where family is just a total fucking disadvantage. In most games where family is a factor at all, it should be overall slightly more to your advantage to have some family than to not.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SosthenesBut I'm generally not a big fan of disadvantages anymore. Steffan O'Sullivan (creator of Fudge) wrote quite some time ago that he gave his players 140 points and didn't give them points for disadvantages. Since then, that's the way I do it with most ad/disad games...

Same here, and I'm very, very close to simply instating it as a blanket houserule.  Thou Shalt Not Get Points From Disadvatages.

It's not that the damn things make PCs think of every bit of their characters' backgrounds as an advantage or disadvantage to be milked for points or trite in-game benefits, but...  well, it certainly encourages that sort of thinking.  And I'm sorry, but I just don't like it.

Quote from: RPGPunditSpike, I despise most of my family, and try to avoid them. That doesn't mean that my family doesn't play a significant role in the "story" of my life. Usually as annoyances, often as complications, sometimes as advantages (as does family name, etc), but rarely, if ever, as kidnap victims.  

Every person's family gives them a set of advantages and disadvantages as well as simple details, all of which matter.  In many RPGs (though not all, as I stated earlier) family does matter, and a GOOD GM will not create a scenario where family is just a total fucking disadvantage. In most games where family is a factor at all, it should be overall slightly more to your advantage to have some family than to not.

RPGPundit

My point was less that I do or do not get advantages and disadvantages from family, but that I have no desire to do anything family related in real life, why the fuck would I go out of my way to recreate that for a game I play for amusement?

More to the point:For every book, movie, epic poem you find me where the central character's family has a great deal to do with what's going on in the story, I can find another book, movie, epic poem where they are never mentioned, or at best are given a line or two establishing that the hero does, yes, come from human parents.

Jimmy-Bee likes to present the Loner Badarse as some sort of abberation, some failing of Gamerdom.  Teflon Loner Badarses can be problematic, but so can the guy insisting you tell him to play out making it to his Grandma's 80th birthday party at the same time he saves the world.

Some folks get more than enough 'family and freind time' in real life and don't want/need to go through the same shit in their hobby. They just want to roll dice, kill shit and, yes, take it's stuff.  

In other words: Does Frodo worry about the rent being god knows how overdue as he climbs Mount Doom? Fuck no, he's busy having an adventure. His freinds are with him, his family existed to give him the ring and tell him it was important.  Saraun isn't trying to get Frodo to give up the ring or the cute hobbit chick fromt he next hole over get's it, no, he's after Frodo to give him the ring back because he's fucking Sauron, man!

The only Loner Badarse problem I see is the Loner Badarse soooo damn Loner that he won't even hang with the party. That guy is the problem, only him.

Quote from: RPGPunditAlso, what kind of fucked-up psychological statement does that make about certain gamers (and game designers) where Family are considered a "disadvantage"?!

RPGpundit

Keeping in mind that you can also have family members as allies, enemies, and patrons?

Anyhow, I'm more of a Rolemaster guy.  It's not art or slick or glossy but it functions in play for more than one session in a row, which is more than I've ever been able to get out of GURPS.

Then again, in Galaxies in Shadow, family members are npcs that are more likely to forgive you if you screw them over, so what do I know?

Funny, this thread made me realize that in 25+ years as a GM I have never once brought a PC's family into play in any way.

I think this is because a kidnapped etc. family member is a really heavy-handed plot device. It forces one PC to investigate, and it forces the others to tug along, even though they've never even met Aunt Dotty.

Quote from: RPGPunditI think this whole GURPS/Champions-ism is part of what has caused the problem with family members.

[...]
Also, what kind of fucked-up psychological statement does that make about certain gamers (and game designers) where Family are considered a "disadvantage"?!

I don't know about Champions, but in GURPS family members and friends can be a Disadvantage (Dependent), or Advantage, or neither or both.

• Family member is a dependent - they require your care in some way, some of the time, you choose how often, eg an infant.
  
• They are an ally - they help you out, some of the time, you choose how often, eg an adult brother.
  
• They are Ally and Dependent both - sometimes they help you, sometimes they require your help, eg a spouse.
  
• They are neither ally nor dependent - they don't particularly rely on you, nor are they available to help you much.

So it ain't necessarily so that "family are considered a disadvantage." It's up to the player. In GURPS, a "disadvantage" is something which restricts your character's freedom of action in some way; an advantage is something which enhances it. So being law-abiding, truthful, charitable, callous, sadistic, having a sense of duty towards something etc are all "disadvantages", because they restrict your character's freedom of action. A truthful character cannot tell a lie, a callous character cannot care about others' suffering, one with a sense of duty cannot abandon their cause. So, in that sense, certain family members or friends are "Disadvantages" - they restrict your freedom of action. Others are "Advantages" - they open up your capabilities. Many are neither, or both.

Certain GMs will have family members and friends kidnapped, tortured or murdered regardless of whether they're listed as Dependents, Allies, both or neither. It's just something they think is fun and interesting. But as I said with my suggestions above, kidnap, torture and murder are about the least interesting ways to bring a family member forth as a Dependent.

Likewise, we do not choose Allies for our characters simply so that those Allies can rescue our PCs from being captured or tortured. They can help us out in other ways, too. Rushing in guns blazing is also pretty much the least interesting thing they can do.

Quote from: SpikeMy point was less that I do or do not get advantages and disadvantages from family, but that I have no desire to do anything family related in real life, why the fuck would I go out of my way to recreate that for a game I play for amusement?

You may be a miserable misanthrope, it does not follow that everyone else is. Many people, in fact, feel that they're defined more by their relationships with others than within themselves.

Quote from: SpikeJimmy-Bee likes to present the Loner Badarse as some sort of abberation, some failing of Gamerdom. Teflon Loner Badarses can be problematic, but so can the guy insisting you tell him to play out making it to his Grandma's 80th birthday party at the same time he saves the world.

An entire adventuring party full of nothing but Loner Badarses is pretty boring. Playing nothing but Loner Badarses for your entire gaming career would get old, I think. If it thrills you, mazeltov. But most players like the option to play Loner Badarses, and the option to play characters with a family and background.

Any roleplaying game, and roleplaying game group, should offer everyone options. We can play this way, or that way. Consider: roleplaying games like Dogs in the Vineyard which only let you play one narrow range of characters and one type of adventure are pretty unpopular; rpgs like D&D which let you play a wide range of characters and a wide range of adventures are extremely popular. People like options, choices, variety.

Sometimes GMs end up restricting their players' options and choices, because they lack imagination.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityFunny, this thread made me realize that in 25+ years as a GM I have never once brought a PC's family into play in any way.

I think this is because a kidnapped etc. family member is a really heavy-handed plot device. It forces one PC to investigate, and it forces the others to tug along, even though they've never even met Aunt Dotty.

You're neglecting, as I mentioned upthread, a veritable grist-mill of flavor, context, and adventure ideas by ignoring familial connections.  A PC's family members need not be only used for kidnap / threat fodder, and in fact that seems to indicate a distinct lack of imagination on the GM's part.

Family and relationships are a way to connect PCs to the gameworld.  It gives them roots and, well, connections.  Those relationships provide vectors through which you can drive conflict, provide information, help, advice, etc.  There's a distinct immediacy that happens when you use a PC's existing relationships for these things rather than spinning out an NPC out of the ether.

A PC with a brother who works as an assistant District Attorney is much different than a PC who "knows a lawyer."

Quote from: JimBobOzYou may be a miserable misanthrope, it does not follow that everyone else is. Many people, in fact, feel that they're defined more by their relationships with others than within themselves.

An entire adventuring party full of nothing but Loner Badarses is pretty boring. Playing nothing but Loner Badarses for your entire gaming career would get old, I think. If it thrills you, mazeltov. But most players like the option to play Loner Badarses, and the option to play characters with a family and background.

Any roleplaying game, and roleplaying game group, should offer everyone options. We can play this way, or that way. Consider: roleplaying games like Dogs in the Vineyard which only let you play one narrow range of characters and one type of adventure are pretty unpopular; rpgs like D&D which let you play a wide range of characters and a wide range of adventures are extremely popular. People like options, choices, variety.

Sometimes GMs end up restricting their players' options and choices, because they lack imagination.

I may be a misanthrope, though I'm hardly miserable.  That's not the point: By declaiming against the 'Loner Badarse' and pointing out baselessly how boring they MUST BE, you are actually trying to remove my preferred option for play.  Mine, and I can assume a fair amount of other peoples, given how you keep running into these 'miserable misanthropes' at your table.

Fuck you. If player A want's to run a "Lifetime Original" with his character, D&D and other games allow that just fine.  But they don't insist Player B have to suffer the same shitty breakfast table discussions about 'what are you doing today, dear?' where he has to lie without lying because his wife doesn't know he's a spy for Agency X!

By saying 'this style is bad' like you always do about the loner badarse, you are limiting my options.

That's the neat thing about GURPS... I don't HAVE to take those fucking disadvantages unless I really feel like it.

The GM that forces that sort of shit on me is probably making me miserable. I don't need to be roped into adventures and  the like, I'm here to game, dude. Give me a plot, no matter how flimsey and I'll follow it.  

"Hey, there is a hole in the ground, maybe full of treasure, you should explore it!" is all the motivation I need. Knowing that my 'one true love' is chained to a pit in the bottom with a dragon waiting to breath on her when I get close doesn't motivate me any further.  Sometimes it's cool to be some nearly nameless wandering fighter out for a quick coin and a flagon of mead from the local tavern.  

You, however, seem to find that seriously unreasonable, to the point of making whole threads about how fucked up it is.

I accuse you of declaring a war against Loner Badarse Swine!