I don't know if she's a fake D&D geek girl or not. But she's spot on about playing online RPG sessions.
She covers my major complaints. I started a solo 5th ed campaign this week because I have grown to really hate online TTRPG gaming.
I can recommend text-chat for online RPGing. I've been running a text-only game on Roll20 since April which continues to be highly enjoyable.
I have to endure enough awkward video meetings at work to be skeptical of that format for gaming. Video-chat seems to exacerbate the tiring and annoying aspects of face-to-face interaction while attentuating the positive ones.
The "cozy togetherness" (hygge) that does actually elevate the fantasy roleplay experience when it happens in person is basically impossible to achieve over video. You just get the self-consciousness and nervous energy that is distracting and inimical to immersion.
I guess cosplayers/ren-faire/indie-RPG types who are into RPGing as a performative exercise would prefer video, but if you're playing for immersion try text-chat.
Having spent most of the last year teaching on zoom twenty hours a week as well as running several games all I can say is....you get used to it.
That's about it really. It's really awful to begin with but you adjust.
You don't need plans for how to handle interruptions - you just need to game online a bit and you'll get used to it. (Although one tip here is the better the software you are using the less of a problem this is - Zoom seems to handle this the best, followed by Google Meet - Discord is popular but it's not really that great.)
The cognitive load from online interactions (and the corresponding exhaustion) reduces over time - there's just an adjustment period.
As for tech issues - the more you use the more issues you will have. VTTs really want to sell you on their features and get you locked into using them and depending on them - but if you don't need it face to face, you don't need it online.
Edit: A research shows that group interactions tend to break down into side conversations when there are more than 4 people. So bear that in mind. Every person over four is making the interaction a litte more unnatural.
I don't have the tech setup to play online but have listened to a lot of the available streamed sessions around the web (as background noise while painting minis or making scenery).
The most obvious faults seem to be:
Metagaming.
So many of the players interrupt with comments or actions based on things their characters cannot possibly be aware of, or involved in. Face to Face you can "quiet chat" or hidden note things but in online sessions everyone hears everything and tries to respond to what they hear. Both DMs and players need to be more conscious of this.
System Knowledge.
The number of DMs who do not know the rules they are using well enough is surprising. Constantly fumbling through rulebooks or making an off the cuff ruling about an action in one turn, then making the opposite ruling when the same action crops up later in the game.
In many, many hours of listening I have not found a single streamed RPG example (apart from the professionally produced 'Me, Myself and Die' solo episodes) which leaves me thinking "That was a really good game session"
For me, I've gotten good results out of Discord.
They have voice and video chat and dice-rolling chat bots that can even handle complex dice mechanics (ex. type "!roll 5d10 t6 f1" and it rolls five dice, counts those that come up 6+ as a success and those that come up as 1 as a -1... or "!roll 2d20 k1" for advantage or "!roll 2d20 kl1" for disadvantage).
You can upload jpgs, word docs., pdfs, etc. to the chat as well (we have the players upload their character sheets at the start of the campaign and each level up for example).
Point your laptop camera at the battle map in video chat if you need a "virtual" tabletop.
Still doesn't beat sitting at a real table with friends, but it can get the job done in a pinch.
Quote from: Libramarian on February 06, 2021, 02:03:39 AM
I can recommend text-chat for online RPGing. I've been running a text-only game on Roll20 since April which continues to be highly enjoyable.
I have to endure enough awkward video meetings at work to be skeptical of that format for gaming. Video-chat seems to exacerbate the tiring and annoying aspects of face-to-face interaction while attentuating the positive ones.
The "cozy togetherness" (hygge) that does actually elevate the fantasy roleplay experience when it happens in person is basically impossible to achieve over video. You just get the self-consciousness and nervous energy that is distracting and inimical to immersion.
I guess cosplayers/ren-faire/indie-RPG types who are into RPGing as a performative exercise would prefer video, but if you're playing for immersion try text-chat.
It's interesting how players that can role-play in a role-playing game are often called "cosplayers/ren-faire/indie-RPG types who are into RPGing."
Quote from: robh on February 06, 2021, 06:30:51 AM
Metagaming.
So many of the players interrupt with comments or actions based on things their characters cannot possibly be aware of, or involved in. Face to Face you can "quiet chat" or hidden note things but in online sessions everyone hears everything and tries to respond to what they hear. Both DMs and players need to be more conscious of this.
I suspect this is mostly a style thing. There are so many ways to pass notes online easily it's not an issue. You could also set up a separate discord channel to pull a player into for a private chat if you need to.
Most of the time I wouldn't do that because metagaming is a thing I stopped worrying about a long time ago.
Quote from: robh on February 06, 2021, 06:30:51 AM
System Knowledge.
The number of DMs who do not know the rules they are using well enough is surprising. Constantly fumbling through rulebooks or making an off the cuff ruling about an action in one turn, then making the opposite ruling when the same action crops up later in the game.
I'm not sure this is really an online thing. But I would recommend going light when gaming online. Use an OSR game or Barbarians of Lemuria or PBTA or something like that. 5E is well supported online obviously and has the advantage that people tend to know the rules, but has the huge disadvantage that combat is too complicated and takes too long - issues which tend to be magnified online.
The reasons for going light are:
- You can't help the players make characters as easily as you could in person. In person other players can chat while you work with one player - but this doesn't work online.
- In Roll20 at least opening an online character sheet and finding the right thing to roll are time consuming, it's much easier to play if players can just roll a basic macro and resolve everything quickly.
- Splitting the party is more difficult, because the other players can't have a side conversation - so you need system in which those situations that do occur can be resolved very quickly.
Online play seems to work best when it is a conversation everyone is involved with. Despite all the wanking over dynamic lighting and the like - these things don't, in my view, do a lot to improve the experience, and often make it worse. The more everyone is interfacing with technology the less they are interacting with each other.
The other thing though is that initially, everyone notices the gaps, and hesitations online a lot more. A pause or an interruption feels like dead time a lot more than it would in person - this fades over time.
This post (http://this%20post) by the AngryGM does a good job of looking over the problems of running games online and what to do about them.
I don't agree with all of it - I think in some ways overly pessimistic (these days I do get as much done online as I would face to face.)
But this bit at the end about 'creeping doom' is spot on.
Quote from: TJS on February 06, 2021, 04:12:02 PM
The other thing though is that initially, everyone notices the gaps, and hesitations online a lot more. A pause or an interruption feels like dead time a lot more than it would in person - this fades over time.
It got worse for me. I had dabbled on online TTRPG before, and felt it didn't quite scratch the itch, but didn't think too much about it.
After the lockdowns, I got more interested because it looked like the only way I'd be able to play TTRPGs for a while.
Over the span of a few months of online sessions, my enthusiasm was down to almost zero. I started to analyze why I wasn't enjoying gaming anymore, and if there was something on my end to adjust my expectations or experience to fix it.
After thinking over all the problems, especially the talking over each other and conversation gaps, I gave up and decided to just play computer games instead. At least the nature of the interaction better suited online gaming.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on February 06, 2021, 03:48:46 PM
Quote from: Libramarian on February 06, 2021, 02:03:39 AM
I can recommend text-chat for online RPGing. I've been running a text-only game on Roll20 since April which continues to be highly enjoyable.
I have to endure enough awkward video meetings at work to be skeptical of that format for gaming. Video-chat seems to exacerbate the tiring and annoying aspects of face-to-face interaction while attentuating the positive ones.
The "cozy togetherness" (hygge) that does actually elevate the fantasy roleplay experience when it happens in person is basically impossible to achieve over video. You just get the self-consciousness and nervous energy that is distracting and inimical to immersion.
I guess cosplayers/ren-faire/indie-RPG types who are into RPGing as a performative exercise would prefer video, but if you're playing for immersion try text-chat.
It's interesting how players that can role-play in a role-playing game are often called "cosplayers/ren-faire/indie-RPG types who are into RPGing."
Greetings!
Good commentary, Shawn Driscoll. I have long noticed this sort of division, a kind of friction, between players that are more or less "mechanical" and "Gamist" in their approach to playing--and those gamers that genuinely get into the immersion of their characters, and enjoy role-playing. There is a distinct difference that is readily discernible at the table. In my experience, what I tend to call "The Gamists"--the former described players--tend to be tactically-orientated, good at system-mastery, and generally pretty meticulous in awareness of details, and bring a strong, consistent workmanlike approach and participation in the game session. However, honestly, their skill at--and enthusiasm for--actual role-playing their character tends to be minimal, and average, at best. The "Cosplay/Ren-Faire" types of players--the second group--are typically very enthusiastic about immersion and role-playing their characters, and more often than not, bring a superior level of role-playing skill to the game session, and are often fantastically fun, entertaining, and a great pleasure to game with. Depending on one's perspective, such players tend to not emphasize "system mastery" or seem to care that much about the various mechanical details of the game system or their character. The worst of such kind of highly emotionally expressive and skilled story and character-driven players are the often-infamous overly sensitive "drama queens" that seem to enjoy generating all manner of interpersonal drama between characters that can be excessive, and problematic in a consistent and real sense.
I always like to have at least one "Mechnical Gamist" player in the group, because they bring a lot of strengths to the game, as well as seriousness and a kind of mature focus that is essential and very beneficial overall. However, having said that, having several "Cosplay/Ren-faire" players in the group really tends to elevate the intensity, depth, and game-play to a much higher level.
There definitely seems to have always been a divide there between the two groups, and an unmistakable tension.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on February 06, 2021, 05:36:02 PM
I always like to have at least one "Mechnical Gamist" player in the group, because they bring a lot of strengths to the game, as well as seriousness and a kind of mature focus that is essential and very beneficial overall. However, having said that, having several "Cosplay/Ren-faire" players in the group really tends to elevate the intensity, depth, and game-play to a much higher level.
There definitely seems to have always been a divide there between the two groups, and an unmistakable tension.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
To be honest, a good mic, camera, and some dice are all that is needed to role-play online. It only takes a few minutes to learn how to role-play without needing to be some sort of actor or cosplayer. But most players are not all that interested in role-playing. They're only about killing time.
Quote from: Libramarian on February 06, 2021, 02:03:39 AM
I can recommend text-chat for online RPGing. I've been running a text-only game on Roll20 since April which continues to be highly enjoyable.
Me too. I find VTT + text is great, my Faerun Adventures sandbox setting on Roll20 as 2 weekly groups running plus a PBP group, all affecting each other. 16 players and 19 PCs (3 players have 2 PCs in different adventurer groups). By contrast I really don't like video & voice chat when GMing online, voice is fine for pre-game chat but adds a lot of extra stress to GMing.
One major point - my games that are going great were all created as online games. I did move a game online but it was definitely a struggle and not very satisfying.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on February 05, 2021, 09:57:46 PM
I don't know if she's a fake D&D geek girl or not.
Not fake, just Millennial. ;D
Quote from: S'mon on February 12, 2021, 05:21:44 PM
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on February 05, 2021, 09:57:46 PM
I don't know if she's a fake D&D geek girl or not.
Not fake, just Millennial. ;D
She doesn't realize that she is the definition of "cringe," does she? OMG, you've discovered role-playing?!?! You go gurl! If only people like you had been around before now (like, since the beginning of the hobby...). Granted, I hated them back then, too.
I feel like I need a dose of Penicillin just from watching that video.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 12, 2021, 08:37:40 PM
Quote from: S'mon on February 12, 2021, 05:21:44 PM
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on February 05, 2021, 09:57:46 PM
I don't know if she's a fake D&D geek girl or not.
Not fake, just Millennial. ;D
She doesn't realize that she is the definition of "cringe," does she? OMG, you've discovered role-playing?!?! You go gurl! If only people like you had been around before now (like, since the beginning of the hobby...). Granted, I hated them back then, too.
I feel like I need a dose of Penicillin just from watching that video.
She's so painfully trying to channel that Becca Scott/Felicia Day brand of OMG SO HYPERACTIVE AND QUIRKY TEHEHEHEHEHE :333 and happened to hit the right algorithm at the right time... it's cringe to be sure, but apparently there's an audience for that. Not us, obviously, but it's a strange world out there.
Quote from: Snark Knight on February 12, 2021, 09:03:39 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 12, 2021, 08:37:40 PM
Quote from: S'mon on February 12, 2021, 05:21:44 PM
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on February 05, 2021, 09:57:46 PM
I don't know if she's a fake D&D geek girl or not.
Not fake, just Millennial. ;D
She doesn't realize that she is the definition of "cringe," does she? OMG, you've discovered role-playing?!?! You go gurl! If only people like you had been around before now (like, since the beginning of the hobby...). Granted, I hated them back then, too.
I feel like I need a dose of Penicillin just from watching that video.
She's so painfully trying to channel that Becca Scott/Felicia Day brand of OMG SO HYPERACTIVE AND QUIRKY TEHEHEHEHEHE :333 and happened to hit the right algorithm at the right time... it's cringe to be sure, but apparently there's an audience for that. Not us, obviously, but it's a strange world out there.
I'm convinced that her "audience" is composed of awkward, socially-inept types for whom a 6&1/2 or 7 seems like a 10...
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 06, 2021, 10:07:05 AM
For me, I've gotten good results out of Discord.
They have voice and video chat and dice-rolling chat bots that can even handle complex dice mechanics (ex. type "!roll 5d10 t6 f1" and it rolls five dice, counts those that come up 6+ as a success and those that come up as 1 as a -1... or "!roll 2d20 k1" for advantage or "!roll 2d20 kl1" for disadvantage).
You can upload jpgs, word docs., pdfs, etc. to the chat as well (we have the players upload their character sheets at the start of the campaign and each level up for example).
Point your laptop camera at the battle map in video chat if you need a "virtual" tabletop.
Still doesn't beat sitting at a real table with friends, but it can get the job done in a pinch.
This is exactly what I do with my group, plus using World Anvil for character sheets and campaign info. Can even do rolls with it but we mostly use discord for that.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 12, 2021, 09:08:02 PM
I'm convinced that her "audience" is composed of awkward, socially-inept types for whom a 6&1/2 or 7 seems like a 10...
I posted her good advice (IMO) for playing online video on a generally family-friendly FB D&D group; I was a bit taken aback that one of the first comments was some guy salivating over her! I think she's mostly a Youtube cosplayer and they do attract a weird demographic. I subbed to her feed yesterday on the strength of the OP and there are more good advice vids like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KucEKGfdhQg but also plenty of feeding the neckbeards. To me her affect seems like a female Matt Colville, not the worst thing in the world but hardly lust inspiring!
Quote from: S'mon on February 13, 2021, 03:30:19 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 12, 2021, 09:08:02 PM
I'm convinced that her "audience" is composed of awkward, socially-inept types for whom a 6&1/2 or 7 seems like a 10...
I posted her good advice (IMO) for playing online video on a generally family-friendly FB D&D group; I was a bit taken aback that one of the first comments was some guy salivating over her! I think she's mostly a Youtube cosplayer and they do attract a weird demographic. I subbed to her feed yesterday on the strength of the OP and there are more good advice vids like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KucEKGfdhQg but also plenty of feeding the neckbeards. To me her affect seems like a female Matt Colville, not the worst thing in the world but hardly lust inspiring!
A female Matt Colville? Don't diss Matt like that (whatever you might think of him, he doesn't deserve that)!
There's a non-insignificant portion of our hobby who, for lack of a better description, is made up of socially maladjusted, awkward, or relationship-challenged males. Go to any con or game store if you doubt me. I have noticed, contrary to the claims of brutal misogyny, that said males will fall all over themselves for the slightest attention from a female in that setting. I've also noticed that normal young women of average attractiveness will sometimes leverage that attention in that setting, as they might not receive the same level of slobbering worship if they were in a setting with more attractive females and more confident males. Invariably, these young women present a mannerism of quirky, flirty, spasticness, which gives them the opportunity of getting the attention from multiple members of the group as she flits from one to the other, without actually having to engage with any single male in a manner that might require more interaction than she wants. An attention vampire, if you will, feeding off the desperate males around her.
I don't know this chick at all, so I can't say for sure that is what she is doing. I'm sure some people just naturally have that vibe. But she checks off every single box, so I can't help but be suspicious...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 13, 2021, 08:54:01 AM
A female Matt Colville? Don't diss Matt like that (whatever you might think of him, he doesn't deserve that)!
I don't know this chick at all, so I can't say for sure that is what she is doing. I'm sure some people just naturally have that vibe. But she checks off every single box, so I can't help but be suspicious...
Colville - just in terms of the general quirky affect. And general attractiveness, I guess (Colville looks like a bugbear to me, but he has his admirers)!
Re vibe, well I think most cosplayers do do it for the attention as well as the Patreon bucks. Of course the job is not without its hazards...
Quote from: S'mon on February 13, 2021, 09:51:47 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 13, 2021, 08:54:01 AM
A female Matt Colville? Don't diss Matt like that (whatever you might think of him, he doesn't deserve that)!
I don't know this chick at all, so I can't say for sure that is what she is doing. I'm sure some people just naturally have that vibe. But she checks off every single box, so I can't help but be suspicious...
Colville - just in terms of the general quirky affect. And general attractiveness, I guess (Colville looks like a bugbear to me, but he has his admirers)!
Re vibe, well I think most cosplayers do do it for the attention as well as the Patreon bucks. Of course the job is not without its hazards...
Oh, yeah, didn't know she was a cosplayer. Guilty as charged...
Edit: I love her excuse for the photos. "I didn't realize that the dress exposed so much of my breasts..." You
took and
posted the f***ing photos yourself! But you didn't look at them? Please...
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 05, 2021, 10:16:30 PM
She covers my major complaints. I started a solo 5th ed campaign this week because I have grown to really hate online TTRPG gaming.
As in a DM and one other player, or just one person DMing and playing?
Because several from my core group of players that have played together for 20 years moved to other states, I've had a Roll20 game for 7 years now. I also had a different in-person game (and sometimes two in-person games) but I've always had a Roll20 game for those years.
It's not quite as good as in-person, but we've gotten into such a good groove with it that it's almost as good.
We use Discord for the audio, pictures, text, and music links (if we're using any background music). We use DNDBeyond for the character sheet and clicking character abilities and Beyond20 extension to display that into Roll20. OR we use the built-in Roll20 character sheet (which I still like). Roll20 is used for the map, fog of war, light sources, PCs, NPC, monsters, objects, movement, spell radius/shapes, etc..
It works well. We have lots of role playing, and lots of combat, and lots of exploration. All of it works smoothly, though I assume much of that is 7 years experience with it rather than being new to it this year.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 12, 2021, 09:08:02 PM
I'm convinced that her "audience" is composed of awkward, socially-inept types for whom a 6&1/2 or 7 seems like a 10...
So...you, back when you were her age.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 13, 2021, 08:54:01 AM
There's a non-insignificant portion of our hobby who, for lack of a better description, is made up of socially maladjusted, awkward, or relationship-challenged males.
So...you, back when you were her age.
The pandemic took me out of the Star Trek game I was running. One of the players, very fluent in Roll20 and Discord, took it over, as he had paid accounts in Roll20 and knew how to work it well.
Unfortunately, I didn't really enjoy playing in the campaign I'd been running, at least not online. So, after a few sessions I bowed out.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 13, 2021, 11:33:28 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 12, 2021, 09:08:02 PM
I'm convinced that her "audience" is composed of awkward, socially-inept types for whom a 6&1/2 or 7 seems like a 10...
So...you, back when you were her age.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 13, 2021, 08:54:01 AM
There's a non-insignificant portion of our hobby who, for lack of a better description, is made up of socially maladjusted, awkward, or relationship-challenged males.
So...you, back when you were her age.
And you, right now.
Quote from: S'mon on February 13, 2021, 03:30:19 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 12, 2021, 09:08:02 PM
I'm convinced that her "audience" is composed of awkward, socially-inept types for whom a 6&1/2 or 7 seems like a 10...
I posted her good advice (IMO) for playing online video on a generally family-friendly FB D&D group; I was a bit taken aback that one of the first comments was some guy salivating over her! I think she's mostly a Youtube cosplayer and they do attract a weird demographic. I subbed to her feed yesterday on the strength of the OP and there are more good advice vids like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KucEKGfdhQg but also plenty of feeding the neckbeards. To me her affect seems like a female Matt Colville, not the worst thing in the world but hardly lust inspiring!
Have you seen her mermaid costume? Serious chance of luring sailors to their doom.
She's good at costumes and can cosplay, posts on rpg topics too, what's not to like?
Quote from: Altheus on February 13, 2021, 12:52:41 PM
She's good at costumes and can cosplay, posts on rpg topics too, what's not to like?
The person?
QuoteIt's interesting how players that can role-play in a role-playing game are often called "cosplayers/ren-faire/indie-RPG types who are into RPGing."
Yeah nope.
Role-playing is not the same as acting. Role-playing is creating decisions and actions of character in believable way considering who this person is, acting is well playing out those decisions in a way like in TV or theatre. You can be great acting and terrible role-playing, or great role-player without shed of acting - referring to your PC's action in third person's laconic manner.
And yes while it's perfectly acceptable to choose table where all people are good actors - it can also become quite toxic, when One True Wayist try to imply only good acting is good role-playing and try to demean and lessen players without acting chops. And those guysa re toxic shitlord and madonnas, and kill them with fire.
QuoteSo many of the players interrupt with comments or actions based on things their characters cannot possibly be aware of, or involved in. Face to Face you can "quiet chat" or hidden note things but in online sessions everyone hears everything and tries to respond to what they hear. Both DMs and players need to be more conscious of this.
Exactly like on most real-life tables so...
Quote from: Mistwell on February 13, 2021, 11:30:38 AM
It works well. We have lots of role playing, and lots of combat, and lots of exploration. All of it works smoothly, though I assume much of that is 7 years experience with it rather than being new to it this year.
Roll20 is definitely working a lot better for me the more I use it and get used to it. I'm finding it's brilliant for a multi-group sandbox campaign, very old school setup (I have 3 PC groups in a ca 50x60 mile campaign area, currently 16 players & 19 active PCs divided 8-8-3). The way it stores locations makes re-use much easier than in tabletop, and it's very easy to have the right terrain prepped when an unexpected encounter happens.
I previously ran the end of Princes of the Apocalypse on Roll20, that seemed a waste of its merits by comparison.
Quote from: Altheus on February 13, 2021, 12:52:41 PM
She's good at costumes and can cosplay, posts on rpg topics too, what's not to like?
That she has Contrapoints in her channel recommendations? ;D
Naw, it's all fine by me; I'm not really interested in cosplay and she's not really my type (nice abs though) - I go more for the large breasted redheads - but her gaming advice seems solid, or at least worth considering.
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 13, 2021, 03:37:23 PM
QuoteIt's interesting how players that can role-play in a role-playing game are often called "cosplayers/ren-faire/indie-RPG types who are into RPGing."
Yeah nope.
Role-playing is not the same as acting. Role-playing is creating decisions and actions of character in believable way considering who this person is, acting is well playing out those decisions in a way like in TV or theatre. You can be great acting and terrible role-playing, or great role-player without shed of acting - referring to your PC's action in third person's laconic manner.
And yes while it's perfectly acceptable to choose table where all people are good actors - it can also become quite toxic, when One True Wayist try to imply only good acting is good role-playing and try to demean and lessen players without acting chops. And those guysa re toxic shitlord and madonnas, and kill them with fire.
QuoteSo many of the players interrupt with comments or actions based on things their characters cannot possibly be aware of, or involved in. Face to Face you can "quiet chat" or hidden note things but in online sessions everyone hears everything and tries to respond to what they hear. Both DMs and players need to be more conscious of this.
Exactly like on most real-life tables so...
I wouldn't diss people who don't want to act at the game table, but I don't really want to play with them either. I want to both roleplay and act and I want to play with folks who do the same. It's not one-true-wayist to tell someone they're not a good fit for my game.
QuoteI wouldn't diss people who don't want to act at the game table, but I don't really want to play with them either. I want to both roleplay and act and I want to play with folks who do the same. It's not one-true-wayist to tell someone they're not a good fit for my game.
That's all fine - as long as you're not making public claims - oh it's not RPG if there's not this-and-that.
I can understand appeal of high-acting game, though being member of very mixed group, I probably value good conceptualism much higher.