https://plus.google.com/u/0/108530078404383929502/posts/AhU4cgseQ9H

QuoteI talk a lot about creating a culture of play. It's kind of our thing at The Gauntlet, and frankly, it's a philosophy that is probably holding us back in the short term. We would have a larger following if we talked about, say, issues of social justice and diversity in gaming, but it's just not our thing. Gaming and the academy, so to speak, is for other groups. We are proud, blue-collar gamers who focus on the low and distasteful act of play. And you better believe, in the indie hobby’s current state, it is a low and distasteful act. Since doing the podcast, I have discovered there are some designers out there who don’t actually want people to play their game and offer criticism, either positive or negative. They prefer to exist in a world where everyone loves their game in a theoretical way; where they can hoard their +’s and retweets and reshares like a dragon with his gold. And there are still other designers who may enjoy having their work played and criticized, but who don’t think it’s nice when their designer friends are subject to the same. Once again, everyone gets a trophy and no one has to feel bad or less special than anyone else.

A money quote from a related thread, lol:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+PaulCzege/posts/JnsFDCi5yUv

QuoteGotta admit that I'm bristling at this "proud blue-collar gamer" stuff. Where are these designers who don't ever want to play? I almost feel like this in Pundit raging against the "swine".

And, if there are way more games than there are people to play them, why should anyone be surprised if these alleged designers don't show up to play other people's games? Aren't they just like everyone else, lacking time to play everything that's out there? Much stuff they are not currently working on?

I know of two well-attended Meetup groups in LA for boardgame designers (and aspiring designers, and people who like to playtest) several games have been published from their people. I don't know of a RPG design group though.

Part of the problem is there is a VAST difference between Writing a RPG, Running a RPG, and Marketing a RPG. Many people who write games aren't the best people to run their own stuff. Most people who write have no idea how to market and advertise their games. That part isn't considered "fun" compared to working on settings or rules.

Also, running demos for strangers can be stressful. People will criticize your baby and convention demos are NOT a "safe space" - you are asking people to give up time from their limited weekend schedule to play your thing they never heard of. And you're probably trying to pimp it for them to buy it too! It's not a game demo, its a SALES presentation!

The "build it and they will come" mentality isn't limited to indie RPGs. You see in across the board in many businesses. Restaurants are notorious for wondering why people aren't filling their tables...and then going out of business. Word of mouth is great BUT it always starts the creator getting out there and engaging with customers.

What a useless blah-blah... :duh:

I haven't followed this podcast so I feel like I am missing something. Is the concern people not playing the games they are making (so the games are not adequately designed for real play at a table), not playing games in general (so they just don't get what people are doing at the table) or that they are not getting out there and playing games publicly in the community (which I guess is more of a PR concern)?

There's a wide difference between "I want to create My Thing" and "I want to create something for other people to enjoy."

I read it as a criticism of people not engaging in actual play as a basis for their design. Doing more design than actually engaging in the hobby.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;863059I read it as a criticism of people not engaging in actual play as a basis for their design. Doing more design than actually engaging in the hobby.

Or doing design as their hobby... with the finished project being more like a concept car than an actual vehicle that's meant to be driven on actual roads.

Playtests with strangers can suck and be totally unfun. They can be rough on the ego, but they are necessary to make games work. Many people don't want to deal with that step.

Quote from: Spinachcat;863063Playtests with strangers can suck and be totally unfun. They can be rough on the ego, but they are necessary to make games work. Many people don't want to deal with that step.

Anyone that does anything creatively and professionally especially regarding things for entertainment purposes should develop a thick skin for criticism.

That was the first thing one of my writing instructors told me many many moons ago. In writing-workshops you have to sit there while everyone stabs your "precious baby" to death and tears it to pieces and you're not allowed to speak or even defend it. It's the first lesson you learn outside of writing: listening.

That of course doesn't mean all criticism is "good criticism". But the reality is this: If you are going to be a professional, you do not have "precious children" you're trying to protect from the outside world. It's quite the opposite - you're a pimp and trying to pimp your work out to whomever will buy it.

Working with my wife as development editors for writers - it's the first thing we break from noob writers. You gotta sell your work.

The same is true for RPG design. And the amount of self-afflicted, introverted ass-hats that want to make this "High Art" and protect their little sweet precious games from criticism are partly why this industry is seen as petty and unprofessional. Because it's filled with people that really don't understand it.

What I don't like is when a developer calls an event a "playtest" but it actually isn't. I was involved in several playtests for PBM games. I tried various aspects of the game and wrote up a report of what I thought worked and different. Turns out, the game was already set-in-stone and the developers didn't really need any input from the "testers". The Middle Earth PBM was one such game I "tested."

Similarly I went to a convention and joined a "playtest" of the diceless game Actorix (or whatever it was called) run by the designers themselves. But again, the rulebooks were set, printed and nothing was to be changed. The event was really just an introduction/advertising moment instead of a real test.

To me a "playtest" should be just that, a test to see if the rules and numbers work out. The designers should be open to feedback and be willing to say "You're right, this doesn't work. We'll change it." We all know what happens when editors stop editing the work of popular authors. Flab accumulates.

Quote from: Doughdee222;863075We all know what happens when editors stop editing the work of popular authors. Flab accumulates.

See this? This ^^^ <--- yeah THAT.

Not a day goes by when working with new writers and shockingly many veteran writers that believe their holy-writing is like the Virgin Mary herself spewing forth divine-glory on the page. And Editors are from Satan himself...

Many writers new to the game don't really understand the importance of a good editor and don't realize while the act of writing is a solitary craft, the actual creation of a book/game/etc. is a group-effort. And the difference between a good writer putting out decent book vs. an outstanding classic is almost always because they did not get enough editorial feedback on it.

Quote from: robiswrong;863058There's a wide difference between "I want to create My Thing" and "I want to create something for other people to enjoy."

I think the Web, with its overturning of the price barrier to publishing, has brought us to a really splendid era for hobby games. We can make up something that we enjoy with our friends, then make the material available online for however many others may also like it.

The few lucky enough to have corporate jobs in the field -- even as free lances -- face the same kinds of pressure that were par for the course back in the day.

Quote from: Spinachcat;863063Playtests with strangers can suck and be totally unfun. They can be rough on the ego, but they are necessary to make games work. Many people don't want to deal with that step.

It seems that fewer still do the blind testing -- testing by people with no prior involvement in the project -- that goes a long way toward cleaning up problems that otherwise might not even be noticed.

For people who have been involved, it's all too easy to see what one expects to see, and to rely on information imparted by the designer via other channels.

Quote from: Spinachcat;863063Playtests with strangers can suck and be totally unfun. They can be rough on the ego, but they are necessary to make games work. Many people don't want to deal with that step.

I actually enjoyed the public playtesting because it tended to weed out any holes in the design. Ive seen a number of designers now buckle and cave, or worse case, blow a gasket when they arent met with yes-men nodding and praising their work.

Game designers can make for poor playtesters. When I playtest someone elses design, and I have done alot of that, I focus on two things. Syntax and repettition goofs in the rules. And on the table gameplay. Are the rules clear? Are there any holes? etc ad playtestium.

Getting people to playtest and getting the right people to playtest can be the tricky part.

Quote from: tenbones;863071Anyone that does anything creatively and professionally especially regarding things for entertainment purposes should develop a thick skin for criticism.

Agreed x1000...BUT the low barrier to entry in the POD/PDF market means that loads of noob designers who don't expect real sales can put their "pure" baby on the market without any risk of "failure."

I am a thick skinned mofo, but DAMN playtesting can be rough on the soul. The worst is when you realize your brain had the right idea, but the page doesn't explain it in plain language and now the good idea is getting shit upon (quite deservingly) at the play test.

Quote from: tenbones;863071In writing-workshops you have to sit there while everyone stabs your "precious baby" to death and tears it to pieces and you're not allowed to speak or even defend it.

Workshops can suck necrotic leprosy dick.

I find half the people show up just to shit on other people. In LA, screenwriting "workshops" are a breeding ground for two kinds of fucknuts - idiots who praise anything and scum who think cutting apart another writer gets them closer to a job.

Writers need to find editors/readers who can be trusted to be honest and direct, but not cruel or fawning. Sadly, those are rare.