Quote from: GunslingerAhhh, that makes sense.  You could put a soft wrap around the spirals, similar to what they do with some cookbooks I've seen.

I've seen a spiral bound RPG product like this.

From a company that, even if they still existed, I wouldn't buy from again. But I think the format is viable. Real nice for books you want to lay flat.

Quote from: pspahnI would be hard pressed to buy a spiral-bound RPG and I can't really explain why, especially because I have no problem using a printed PDF in a folder.  

Pete

And that is the general reason EVERY publisher I have talked to does not favor spiral bound. Caveat: Many live the format and wish it was commercially viable but attempts prove otherwise.

Bill

Quote from: RPGPunditAre there people here who sincerely feel its worthwhile to pay extra money for the less practical format of the hardcover RPG book?

Personally, I despise this innovation. The only people I can imagine who benefit by it are COLLECTORS who DO NOT PLAY, but put the book up on their shelves to look pretty.

The palladium-esque softcover, smaller sized paperback, or boxed set are all far more practical for the gamer who actually plays. They're easier to use and they last longer, and they're cheaper to make (except possibly the boxed set).

Or is there something I'm missing here? Is there some argument any of you can make to a benefit of the more expensive less-durable hardcover book that I hadn't yet thought of?

RPGPundit

YAWN. Another beller post. Whether people want a paperback or hardback doesn't matter. Most companies make one or the other so there's really no real choice for the buyer.

A hardback does not guarantee quality, of course. Tye famous gurps 4e fuckup proved that. The pages in my g4e hardback came out right away, buyt the ones in my 3e paperback are still intact.

All things being equal, I prefer a well made hardcover. If I'm going to order the book and get it shipped, I might as well get something that's sturdier and better looking.

Things, however, are not aways equal: if I were choosing one or the other for something I'm producing, it would be softcover.

-Marco

Quote from: RPGPunditAre there people here who sincerely feel its worthwhile to pay extra money for the less practical format of the hardcover RPG book?

Yep. I'm a bibliophile and, as a rule, hardcover books typically endure regular use better due to sewn bindings (an option unavailable in softcovers) and well. . . hard covers (which don't bend, fold, tear or stain with the ease that the covers of many perfect-bound books do).

QuoteIs there some argument any of you can make to a benefit of the more expensive less-durable hardcover book that I hadn't yet thought of?

With the exception of printer errors (e.g., early White Wolf hardcovers) , I've never seen a hardcover book that was "less durable" than a softcover. As I note above, I've found the exact opposite to be true.

Quote from: WarthurYeah, it really threw me when I found out that the core MRQ books would be hardcovers. The stated aim was to get the rules out in a no-frills easy-on-the-pocket format... which, erm, would seem to point towards softcovers all the way.

I don't think it was the hard cover that boosted the MRQ price, but the choice of paper stock and artwork presentation. As Troll Lords has demonstrated, a low cost, hard cover rule book is well within the realm of possibility (provided that you use no-gloss paper and simple black and white artwork).

The soft wrap around spirals sounds positively awesome.

I'd use that.

Quote from: jdrakehWith the exception of printer errors (e.g., early White Wolf hardcovers) , I've never seen a hardcover book that was "less durable" than a softcover. As I note above, I've found the exact opposite to be true.

Something else to consider is that books are getting larger. When I started in this business RPG books were printing between 32 and 64 pages. For the large sourcebooks you'd see 128 pages.

Now 300 pages or more is not uncommon.

I dont even want to think about how bad the binding would be on a 300 page softcover.

But really, there's no conspiracy here. Manufacturers just noticed that hardcovers were attracting priority dollars.

I even remember a thread on ENWorld a couple years ago where someone said, in complaining about hardcovers, that he wished he could buy some great looking 128 page softcovers but he was buying the new HC instead.

That's exactly the mindset publishers were noticing.

And of course full-color glossy paper took that to the next level. Anyone else here remember people ooing and ahhing over how amazing the 1st edition of Mutants and Masterminds looked?

I do. That made the book stand out. Had people gushing about it for weeks on the boards. It helped make the book a hit.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckI dont even want to think about how bad the binding would be on a 300 page softcover.

I've seen 'em during my time as a product reviewer. Hot glue doesn't hold 300+ pages in place very securely for very long under normal use conditions (especially in very humid or very arid environemnts).

I've had several high page count softcover products literally fall apart in a matter of weeks (most recently the True20 Bestiary and, prior to that, a new copy of Rifts Conversion Book I).

For low page count products, a softcover is a more viable option but (again,with the exception of botched print runs) I generally find hardcover books to be superior in every way when it comes to long term durability.

QuoteBut really, there's no conspiracy here. Manufacturers just noticed that hardcovers were attracting priority dollars.

I admit that, when I have the option between buying a hardcover or softcover version of a product, I buy the hardcover version -- even if it means putting off the purchase for another week or two (the only reason that I bought a softcover of Cyradon was that I had no idea a hardcover version existed at the time).

I think that perfect-bound books are. largely, crap. If I've found that, in day to day use, even thin, saddle-stiched (i.e., staple-bound), products like the old TSR AD&D adventure modules tend to outlast perfect-bound books when subjected to frequent use. The problem with this is that the most efficient way to sell saddle-stitched products is as part of a boxed set (which usually costs the publisher more than they can expect to sell it for)*.

Spiral binding might be an alternative, but as mentioned earlier, it looks like absolute crap (you can get it done at most neighborhood copy shops for $2.00) and most consumers would expect such products to retail for significantly less than perfect-bound softcovers. And I'm not sure that they would. This would be met with consumer hostility, I think.

*I'm not sure how well the current $70 box sets that are roughly equivalent to their 1990s $20 counterparts are selling, but I'm guessing that many of them collect dust on the shelves of retail stores.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckI do. That made the book stand out. Had people gushing about it for weeks on the boards. It helped make the book a hit.

I was one of those people.  I had a similar reaction to the deluxe edition of Silver Age Sentinels.  For four color supers game I like the art in four colors.  I find black and white sufficient for pretty much everything else.

My 1st Edition AD&D DMG is falling to pieces, while my softcover Palladium books bought in the same time are mostly fine.

And not counting absolute disasters like my Midnight book, even those hardcovers which haven't started out messed up, I can tell are going to be in much worse shape in 15 years than said softcover Palladium (and other) titles.

RPGPundit

I like softcovers. I don't hate hardcovers, but for fuck's sake, can someone invent a cheap, durable version one can open and lay flat? And if there is one, why don't more publishers use it (and don't say "it's expensive"; I just said "cheap")? Plus, I hate the trend  of short (like 128 pages) books that are hardcover. It makes them take up an inordinate amount of space. That's important when space is at a premium.

Speaking of books that lay flat, I would be willing to pay a bit more for a hardback or softcover (especially softcover) that did so. The Amber RPG book I have is precisely this kind of book, and is one of the reasons I think it's pretty nifty. Spiral-bound books are very convenient, as others up-thread have said, but they don't sit well on a bookshelf, and there is no spine to identify them.

Quote from: RPGPunditMy 1st Edition AD&D DMG is falling to pieces, while my softcover Palladium books bought in the same time are mostly fine.

My own softcover Palladium books lasted little more than six months before the laminate started to peel away from the cover's cardstock (there have been a few exceptions, though not very many) and the pages started to separate from the spine inside of a year (with the exception of, oddly enough, my limited edition hardcover copies of Rifts and Palladium Fantasy).

That said, I've heard both of these complaints (i.e., pages falling out, laminate separating from covers) from many, many, many Palladium fans (online and off). Conversely, I've heard very few AD&D fans complain about the quality of the old hardcovers, with the exception of the Oriental Adventure (indeed, I hear many old grognards pine for the days of handsewn bindings and hard covers for every book).

Of course, YMMV, but I think you're the first person that I've ever heard praise Palladium's books for being durable. You're certainly the first person who I've heard argue in seriousness that glue and light cardstock are more durable than sewn bindings and heavy cardstock.

Quote from: jdrakehYep. I'm a bibliophile and, as a rule, hardcover books typically endure regular use better due to sewn bindings (an option unavailable in softcovers) and well. . . hard covers (which don't bend, fold, tear or stain with the ease that the covers of many perfect-bound books do).

I agree that perfect binding is often crap, though it seems to vary for some reason. (National Geographics, often decades old, seem to hold their bindings pretty well.) But also, Dover Books is at least one publisher that does use sewn bindings in its paperbacks. (Or did at one time.)

Also, while poking around for more info, I came across a couple of links that suggest both that good modern adhesives and techniques can make very good perfect-bound books, and that even hardbound books these days are often made using, essentially, perfect binding. (I just looked at a couple of my hardcover game books and one (Sorcerer) is pretty clearly perfect bound; the other two (Feng Shui and Riddle of Steel) are inconclusive and I don't feel like tearing them apart to be sure.)

Quote from: ColonelHardissonSpeaking of books that lay flat, I would be willing to pay a bit more for a hardback or softcover (especially softcover) that did so.

The technology is available, but it's very new (and, thus, it's also very expensive). Here's a bit about the process and how you can identify a "lay-flat" book:

Linkage

I believe that some recent RPG products (all hardcovers) have used the process in question, though I could be mistaken (never having tried to lay the books flat, I can't say with certainty that they were, in fact, "lay-flat" books).

I think that when the process becomes more affordable, you'll see more publishers use it, though because it would raise the price point for softcover products considerably, I doubt if you'll ever see many "lay flat" softcover RPG books. I think it is well-established that the primary appeal of said books for consumers is their low retail price.