I'm curious.
:hmm:
I used to play MERP/RM2 back in the day, but wouldn't want anything as 'rules heavy' as RM2 these days (MERP-level of heaviness is okay).
I have the free HARP lite pdf, and it looks pretty good. But I'm not sure how they would play out in practice.
I am also curious. I had bad experiences with MERP, but they were all DM-related. I think the rules weren't good in practice (TRY to do what Boromir did at the end of Fellowship in a MERP game), but the rules were at least a fun read and fun to tinker with. I love complex character creation rules (just not for NPCs).
Greetings!
I think HARP is ICE's last gasp at remaining a game company. I used to play Rolemaster, and somehow, they failed to support it properly, screwed up their funding, and died. Though they've been bought out and somewhat resurrected, I'd bet they will never be as popular as they once were. Strategically, I think they had a strong opportunity between 1992-2000, but fumbled it.
From what I've seen of HARP, while there are some neat changes, it seems a case of "too little, too late."
In my local game store, they have a box with about half a dozen old Rolemaster products, and 1 or 2 HARP products.
It's been the same for over a year. The existing product hasn't moved, and no new product has come in.
Kinda sad to see the demise of a game company I once thought had secured a fairly strong--though samll--niche in the indutry. I liked Rolemaster, but between ICE's lack of focus and support, D&D 3E, and the dissolution of the company, has destroyed them and their capacity to really make any meaningful contributions to the gaming industry.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
As SHARK says, HARP seems like an attempt by ICE to revive itself in the RPG market. It's a damned neat little game, which essentially cleaned up the old RM/MERP system and made it more accessible. It's too bad it didn't do any better than it did. Still, it's out there, and maybe it'll eventually grow a bigger player-base.
Huh. I didn't realise that HARP failed to sell well. The rulebook seems like a good deal. I like 'all-in-one' books.
I know that a few supplements have been released for it (a monsters book, an advanced combat book, a magic book).
Did it just fail to distinguish itself adequately from 3e?
Also, has anyone here played the game? If so, how did it feel in practice, in contrast to (say) 3e D&D? Or Rolemaster?
EDIT: fixed typo
I'm running a campaign right now. It's also worth noting that HARP is ICE's best-seller, though what that amounts to is beyond me. It does seem that ICE believes it has sold tolerably well, and It's been mentioned on the ICE boards that HARP is a way to make money so they can also support their other lines...including a RM revision in the very earliest stages of planning.
As to HARP itself, it's a nice system. It doesn't have the overwhelming level of detail present in Rolemaster, but it should be recognizable to fans of that game. There are 3 different options on combat, ranging from a very simplified crit chart, to more of a Hack N' Slash style, to a crit system a bit more approximate to that in Rolemaster (though still not as deep).
If you've read HARP Lite, you'll have seen skill resolution is the same--with the nice added steps of not having to do all the figuring for skill categories and skills during character creation.
As far as relating with D&D, it's a nice alternative, though I can't say either game is superior to the other in any definitive way. For me, HARP tends to plays a little quicker, and I enjoy the crit charts I'm using, but character generation takes a bit longer than I'd like. Skill/task resolution is also fast, and there are a lot of system options for building the sort of character you want, via a combination of Professions (sort of your base class, giving you certain perks, free skill ranks in pertinent issues, etc.), Background/Culture (supplying you with free skills from adolescence), Training Packages (a nice way to pick up a subset of skills), and independent point-buy for other Skills, Talents, Special Items, etc. If, for some reason, you dislike D&D but want to use a rules-medium system, I'd recommend this (or perhaps the Epic RPG) as an excellent alternative. Me? I used HARP on the initial premise of I loved Rolemaster (and those anything's-possible open-endded percentiles), but was working with a group of rookies I didn't have time to properly introduce to the game. HARP seemed to be a good compromise for that, and it's been enjoyable.
I don't doubt HARP did relatively well. It's just too bad it didn't do any better than it did. It would be nice to see several alternatives to D&D take a bigger bite of market share.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI don't doubt HARP did relatively well. It's just too bad it didn't do any better than it did. It would be nice to see several alternatives to D&D take a bigger bite of market share.
Yeah, I guess it all comes down to "relatively". What can be a sucess for a smaller RPG company can be barely a blip on the bigger radar at large.
Thanks, Zachary. I might actually give HARP a look (depending on how much it costs). I'm always up for at least looking at new systems -- especially crunchy ones. :)
Quote from: CyberzombieThanks, Zachary. I might actually give HARP a look (depending on how much it costs). I'm always up for at least looking at new systems -- especially crunchy ones. :)
I think they're still running the d20 for HARP promo--ah, here it is (http://www.harphq.com/d20forHARPinfo.htm). Might take the edge off if you have some d20 stuff you don't use anymore.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstI think they're still running the d20 for HARP promo--ah, here it is (http://www.harphq.com/d20forHARPinfo.htm). Might take the edge off if you have some d20 stuff you don't use anymore.
It would be the most useful thing the Creature Catalog (or whatever that stupid Necromancer book was called) had ever done for me. :heh:
I might just do it. :D
Quote from: CyberzombieIt would be the most useful thing the Creature Catalog (or whatever that stupid Necromancer book was called) had ever done for me. :heh:
I might just do it. :D
Yep. I picked up my first copy from Noble Knight, but a friend of mine got rid of his
Lords of Madness that way
. :heh: It's not like we don't all have some regrettable purchases/outright stinkers befouling our bookshelves. :flush:
Quote from: Cyberzombie.... I might actually give HARP a look (depending on how much it costs). I'm always up for at least looking at new systems -- especially crunchy ones. :)
You can get the 'HARP lite' rules for free here:
http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/3000L_HarpLite.pdf
Quote from: AkrasiaYou can get the 'HARP lite' rules for free here:
http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/3000L_HarpLite.pdf
How "lite" are we talking here? It's not a game I'm actually likely to play. I'd want to see the down and dirty of the mechanics of the system and most "lite" things intentionally (and justifiably) don't include much or any of that.
Quote from: CyberzombieHow "lite" are we talking here? It's not a game I'm actually likely to play. I'd want to see the down and dirty of the mechanics of the system and most "lite" things intentionally (and justifiably) don't include much or any of that.
Well, it's 96 pages (about half as long as the real book IIRC), so it covers all the basics and then some. The "Lite" version is enough to run a campaign with, I would say. You are missing some classes, skills, spells, etc, but the system itself is pretty much all there.
Quote from: TechnomancerWell, it's 96 pages (about half as long as the real book IIRC), so it covers all the basics and then some. The "Lite" version is enough to run a campaign with, I would say. You are missing some classes, skills, spells, etc, but the system itself is pretty much all there.
All right. Downloading away, then. If I like what I see, I'll work the full thing into my gaming budget. :)
Quote from: CyberzombieIt would be the most useful thing the Creature Catalog (or whatever that stupid Necromancer book was called) had ever done for me. :heh:
I might just do it. :D
You mean the one that was released before the 3e Monster Manual? That was the Creature Collection, and it was Sword & Sorcery, not Necromancer. Necromancer did the Tomes of Horror, which whoop ass - I don't want them confused with the CC. The confusion comes from the fact that S&S did some of the publishing for Necromancer stuff, like Kenzer has done with Necromancer recently.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonYou mean the one that was released before the 3e Monster Manual? That was the Creature Collection, and it was Sword & Sorcery, not Necromancer. Necromancer did the Tomes of Horror, which whoop ass - I don't want them confused with the CC. The confusion comes from the fact that S&S did some of the publishing for Necromancer stuff, like Kenzer has done with Necromancer recently.
The incestuous relationships of d20 companies drive me up the fucking wall!
You're right, though.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstI'm running a campaign right now....
Would you be willing to say a few things about your HARP campaign?
What kind of setting are you using, and what kinds of adventures are you running?
Quote from: AkrasiaWould you be willing to say a few things about your HARP campaign?
What kind of setting are you using, and what kinds of adventures are you running?
Okay, so I've got my HARP Lite open and I'm reading through it with lunch right now. This is quite trippy to read -- it's like MERP and d20 got together and had a baby. It's a very pretty baby, so far, though. I'm just weirded out by the idea of MERP and d20 fucking, though. :eek:
Quote from: CyberzombieI'm just weirded out by the idea of MERP and d20 fucking, though. :eek:
Too much alcohol
can lead to that sort of thing...
...or so I'm told. ;)
If anyone is familiar with both Rolemaster (2nd edition) and HARP, I'd be curious to know how easy it is to translate RM2 stats into HARP terms.
The reason I am asking is that the main reason I'm tempted to give HARP a shot is that I own some very fine old ICE campaign and adventure modules with RM2 stats (assorted 'Shadow World' and 'Middle-earth' stuff).
Thanks! :)
Quote from: Cyberzombie... This is quite trippy to read -- it's like MERP and d20 got together and had a baby. It's a very pretty baby, so far ...
Given that d20 reads like MERP and AD&D got together and had a baby, it's a surprise that HARP is 'pretty' instead of being a gross, slobbering, mentally deficient horror.
Quote from: AkrasiaGiven that d20 reads like MERP and AD&D got together and had a baby, it's a surprise that HARP is 'pretty' instead of being a gross, slobbering, mentally deficient horror.
I sure don't see any resemblance between d20 and MERP. I see more resemblance between Ars Magica and d20 than between d20 and MERP.
But CZ is on the money. HARP really does seem like a hybrid of d20 and MERP. It's what struck me upon my first reading HARP.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI sure don't see any resemblance between d20 and MERP...
The skill system in 3e looks like it was taken from MERP. At least that was my impression when I first read it (different skill point 'costs' for different professions/classes, spend skill points every level, roll and add your skill bonus to get the result, etc.). Replace MERP's d% with 3e's d20, and you have pretty similar skill systems IMO.
The 'unified' experience chart for all classes in 3e was used by Rolemaster/MERP all along.
The use of a 'unified' mechanic (single die-type, 'higher is always good') was also used by Rolemaster/MERP all along. Again, replace MERP's roll% + bonuses with 3e's roll d20 + bonuses, and you have very similar 'core mechanics' for both games.
So when I first read 3e, my first thought was: 'They've used Rolemaster/MERP to revise D&D!'
It's not surprising that you can see influences from both Ars Magica and Rolemaster in D&D. After all, Jonathan Tweet was one of the two main designers of Ars Magica (the other being Mark Rein-Hagen), and Monte Cook worked for ICE before he got a job at TSR.
Quote from: DackeIt's not surprising that you can see influences from both Ars Magica and Rolemaster in D&D. After all, Jonathan Tweet was one of the two main designers of Ars Magica (the other being Mark Rein-Hagen), and Monte Cook worked for ICE before he got a job at TSR.
And that's a good point. I'd have to concede that some RM influence must have gotten into D&D, just because Monte worked on both. It's just that the Ars Magica influence is just so strong it leaped out at me right from the start.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonAs SHARK says, HARP seems like an attempt by ICE to revive itself in the RPG market. It's a damned neat little game, which essentially cleaned up the old RM/MERP system and made it more accessible. It's too bad it didn't do any better than it did. Still, it's out there, and maybe it'll eventually grow a bigger player-base.
Just want to address a couple of points.
1) HARP is based mostly on RM2, not MERP. I have never owned nor read MERP. Still don't have a copy. However, HARP is not RM Lite. HARP is its own system, designed from the ground up (Lite implies that things were culled from RM to form the "Lite" game).
2) HARP was conceived to be a lighter (then Rolemaster) system to fill the niche that MERP used to fill (introductory level/style game).
3) Yes, it is quite likely that D&D did have some influence on HARP, so did Hero, and RuneQuest (other games that are favorites of mine). No matter what an author tries to tell you, anything that they produce is going to be influenced by things that they worked on in the past (and/or played/enjoyed a lot). It is simple human nature.
4) Yes, HARP has sold, and it still selling quite well. In fact, it is doing so well (and yes, compared to WOTC, this is a piddling amount, but then so is everything compared to WOTC), that I think it is the cause behind #5.
5) Since its rebirth, Alliance (the largest US distributor) has refused to carry ICE products because one of their VPs hates ICE. A few months ago,
Alliance approached ICE, wanting to carry our stuff. It seems that the procurement staff wanted ICE products so badly that they went over this VP's head and got him removed from the decision making process (i.e. took him out of the loop). As of a couple of weeks ago (thanks to printer delays - arrghh), we are now carried by Alliance. What this shows is that there is a demand for ICE products (my opinion is that the demand is for HARP), and that it is growing.
6) HARP's player base continues to grow. Not fast, no. But slowly and continuously. For example, when HARP first came out, a fellow named grubman did a review (and gave it only so-so marks). Recently, he decided to try HARP again. He is now heartily and vocally supporting HARP in a number of threads on rpg.net.
7) Something else to consider. Many game companies have been hit hard over the last several years due to distributor problems and such. ICE has avoided that by not relying upon distributor sales. We sell tto/through distributors, we just don't rely on them as the major portion of income. Thus, ICE has largely remained unaffected by those past issues.
8) HARP has had somehing like 5 or 6 books released for it, not counting the setting, Cyradon (which will be submitted to the ENnies this year), and at least 8 PDF products released for it, in addition to the print books (we are also starting periodical PDF support for the other lines as well).
9) Unlike many other companies, ICE is going for quality of products released, not quantity. ICE does not subscribe to the theory that a product's life cycle is 3 months. That sort of thinking only hurts the industry overall. Our idea is to build products that will last, products that will continue to sell many years down the road.
10) Yes, ICE has announced a revision for RM. We have not however, officially began working on it. However, we have set up a section of the ICE forums dedicated to discussing it in an unofficial manner.
I guess that is enough for now.
Cool -- someone from ICE is here! :)
I have to say that I like HARP Lite, overall. There are things I don't like, but I spend so much time picking game systems apart that that's not surprising.
I still don't like the stats -- you've got even more incentive to cheat on your rolls than you do in D&D. And I don't like the die rolling mechanic, especially for combat.
But the game does have a lot of other features going for it that I do like. I'm thinking about getting the full book just to see the full range of classes (whatever they're called in HARP). The four in the book are interesting but don't give the full range of the system.
All in all, I'd say it is a pretty damn cool replacement for MERP.
Quote from: CyberzombieCool -- someone from ICE is here! :)
Yeah, I do get around sometimes... hehe
Quote from: CyberzombieI have to say that I like HARP Lite, overall. There are things I don't like, but I spend so much time picking game systems apart that that's not surprising.
My personal belief is that there is no such thing as a "perfect" game system. While some may come close, people's tastes are too varied for one system to work well for everybody.
This was taken into account when I designed HARP, and I tried to make it as easy to customize as possible without such customizations disrupting the balance (which I have seen happen any number of times in any number of systems, including Rolemaster).
Quote from: CyberzombieI still don't like the stats -- you've got even more incentive to cheat on your rolls than you do in D&D. And I don't like the die rolling mechanic, especially for combat.
Not quite as happy with that as I wanted to be. There are also other portions that I think could be better as well. Hindsight and all that....
As for the Dice Rolling mechanic, you do realize that it is almost identical to the dice rolling mechanic used by d20, don't you? Just using a different scale, and having the open-ended rolls.
As for combat, there are a number of different options you can select from. From a grittier combat system (Hack & Slash), to the Life Points option in the core rules, to a Damage Dice system (created at the request of der_kluge from the EN World forums - and found in HARPer's Bazaar #4) that is reminiscent of how damage in d20 is handled.
In the page link that I give down below, you can even find guidelines for using HARP with a d20 rather than percentile (d100) dice. And on another website -- http://www.guildcompanion.com -- you can find an article I wrote for using HARP without levels, and an article by the author of one of the best liked HARP supplements (College of Magics) on using HARP without professions.
The point is, that HARP is made especially so that you can trade out things you do not like for things that you do.
Quote from: CyberzombieBut the game does have a lot of other features going for it that I do like. I'm thinking about getting the full book just to see the full range of classes (whatever they're called in HARP). The four in the book are interesting but don't give the full range of the system.
Well, check out http://www.harphq.com/webextras.htm for a bunch of official downloads for HARP, including the Character Creation Overview -- http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/HARP_RevisedCharGenOverview.pdf -- which does include all of the professions. ;)
Kind of an open secret, but a lot of the material missing from HARP Lite can be found on that Web Extras page in other downloads.... hehe...
Quote from: CyberzombieAll in all, I'd say it is a pretty damn cool replacement for MERP.
Thanks.... (now I have to hide until I can stop blushing....) :p
And don't forget about the d20 for HARP deal. If you purchase the soft cover HARP, and then send us $30 worth of products with the d20 logo on it (can be 3.0 or 3.5 - doesn't matter - they just have to be in good condition (i.e. no missing covers or pages torn out, etc.. as they are likely to be used as Game Day give-aways)) we give you back part of what you paid for it. Of course, you can send in the product first (or send in the product with a check for purchase (including shipping costs) along with note placing order when you send in the product). A number of different ways to handle it..
Personally, I find the d20 trade-in thing silly. But HARP is really an outstanding game.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonPersonally, I find the d20 trade-in thing silly. But HARP is really an outstanding game.
Hey, if it gets folks to check out HARP, that is always a good thing.. :)
Plus, it gives me a chance to see products I normally would not see (like the copy of Arcana Evolved, which I would have never bought, or the two Green Ronin books we got, which I likely would have bought had I ever seen them locally).
Quote from: RasyrYeah, I do get around sometimes... hehe
Cool. I love our d20 people, but I'm glad to see us broadening beyond our d20 roots. :)
Quote from: RasyrMy personal belief is that there is no such thing as a "perfect" game system. While some may come close, people's tastes are too varied for one system to work well for everybody.
This was taken into account when I designed HARP, and I tried to make it as easy to customize as possible without such customizations disrupting the balance (which I have seen happen any number of times in any number of systems, including Rolemaster).
Definitely -- I'll never run out of room to tinker with rules.
I wasn't aware of the customizability of the system (though I did read the part at the beginning of the magic section about choosing a source of magic). That's cool -- I like that in a system.
Quote from: RasyrNot quite as happy with that as I wanted to be. There are also other portions that I think could be better as well. Hindsight and all that....
As for the Dice Rolling mechanic, you do realize that it is almost identical to the dice rolling mechanic used by d20, don't you? Just using a different scale, and having the open-ended rolls.
Yes, and the problems I have with your mechanic are similar (though not the same) as the problems I have with d20. :D
Quote from: RasyrAs for combat, there are a number of different options you can select from. From a grittier combat system (Hack & Slash), to the Life Points option in the core rules, to a Damage Dice system (created at the request of der_kluge from the EN World forums - and found in HARPer's Bazaar #4) that is reminiscent of how damage in d20 is handled.
I don't think I'd ever want *grittier* combat than HARP already has. I'm a cinematic type, myself.
Quote from: RasyrIn the page link that I give down below, you can even find guidelines for using HARP with a d20 rather than percentile (d100) dice. And on another website -- http://www.guildcompanion.com -- you can find an article I wrote for using HARP without levels, and an article by the author of one of the best liked HARP supplements (College of Magics) on using HARP without professions.
The point is, that HARP is made especially so that you can trade out things you do not like for things that you do.
Interesting. I'll have to check out things more in depth than I was originally planning.
Quote from: RasyrWell, check out http://www.harphq.com/webextras.htm for a bunch of official downloads for HARP, including the Character Creation Overview -- http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/HARP_RevisedCharGenOverview.pdf -- which does include all of the professions. ;)
Kind of an open secret, but a lot of the material missing from HARP Lite can be found on that Web Extras page in other downloads.... hehe...
Cool. I'm not sure that's the best financial decision on your part, but cool.
Quote from: RasyrThanks.... (now I have to hide until I can stop blushing....) :p
And don't forget about the d20 for HARP deal. If you purchase the soft cover HARP, and then send us $30 worth of products with the d20 logo on it (can be 3.0 or 3.5 - doesn't matter - they just have to be in good condition (i.e. no missing covers or pages torn out, etc.. as they are likely to be used as Game Day give-aways)) we give you back part of what you paid for it. Of course, you can send in the product first (or send in the product with a check for purchase (including shipping costs) along with note placing order when you send in the product). A number of different ways to handle it..
I think I'll end up doing that just for the novelty of it. It may be silly, but then I'm silly, so that's okay. :win:
Quote from: CyberzombieCool. I'm not sure that's the best financial decision on your part, but cool.
Think of the "Penny Paint Sale" that Marian held in one episode of the tv show Happy Days......
Rasyr:
I have a question about the Rolemaster-to-HARP conversion you have available for download at the HARP website (http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/Patrikka.RMtoHARPConv.pdf ). Is it for RM2e or RMFRP/RMSS?
It's been a number of years since I last played Rolemaster, so I couldn't tell from a quick read.
(I guess I could ask that at the ICE forums, but if you're going to be visiting here anyway ...)
The reason I'm curious about the ease of RM2e-HARP conversion is that my main reason for considering HARP is the amount of good old ICE stuff I own.
Quote from: Akrasia... The reason I am asking is that the main reason I'm tempted to give HARP a shot is that I own some very fine old ICE campaign and adventure modules with RM2 stats (assorted 'Shadow World' and 'Middle-earth' stuff)...
I don't know if Rasyr already mentioned it, but there is a good recent review of HARP over at RPG.net:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12143.phtml
It's well written and comprehensive, like most reviews by Dan Davenport.
Quote from: AkrasiaRasyr:
I have a question about the Rolemaster-to-HARP conversion you have available for download at the HARP website (http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/Patrikka.RMtoHARPConv.pdf ). Is it for RM2e or RMFRP/RMSS?
Taking a quick look, I would say it is for RMSS/FRP as it lists the Dabbler and Magent which are RMSS/FRP professions, not RM2 professions.
Quote from: AkrasiaThe reason I'm curious about the ease of RM2e-HARP conversion is that my main reason for considering HARP is the amount of good old ICE stuff I own.
If you are willing to make a few minor adjustments on the fly, you should be able to use them pretty much as is....
Step 1: do a quick comparison of what number of ranks a character can have at each level for RM2 and HARP (2 rnks per level for the most part for RM2, and max of level *2 + 3 for HARP). Stat bonuses in RM are higher than HARP as well. Just as a rough guesstimate, I would say giving a +50 to the RM skill bonuses should work okay to make them usable with HARP.
Step 2: Look at the armor worn, and decide what that equates to in HARP, and then add the proper bonus to their DB. (there not being an AT in HARP).
Quote from: AkrasiaI don't know if Rasyr already mentioned it, but there is a good recent review of HARP over at That big successful forum that people come to here from when they are kicked from there:
http://www.that%20big%20successful%20forum%20that%20people%20come%20to%20here%20from%20when%20they%20are%20kicked%20from%20there/reviews/archive/12/12143.phtml
It's well written and comprehensive, like most reviews by Dan Davenport.
I was going to mention it in my first post in this thread, but then decided not to. I was already sounding (to myself) to pendantic in that post, I didn't want to add pretentious to it as well.. hehe...
Quote from: Rasyr...
If you are willing to make a few minor adjustments on the fly, you should be able to use them pretty much as is....
Step 1: do a quick comparison of what number of ranks a character can have at each level for RM2 and HARP (2 rnks per level for the most part for RM2, and max of level *2 + 3 for HARP). Stat bonuses in RM are higher than HARP as well. Just as a rough guesstimate, I would say giving a +50 to the RM skill bonuses should work okay to make them usable with HARP.
Step 2: Look at the armor worn, and decide what that equates to in HARP, and then add the proper bonus to their DB. (there not being an AT in HARP).
...
Thanks! :)
I'm pretty sure that you mentioned this to me before on some other board. This time, though, I've copied and saved it for future reference.
Quote from: AkrasiaThanks! :)
I'm pretty sure that you mentioned this to me before on some other board. This time, though, I've copied and saved it for future reference.
Heh! Always a good idea... heheh