TheRPGSite

Richard Johnson over at rattrap productions just posted this to a message board for his miniature game:

"Now that RPGNow has officially announced their merger
with Drive Thru RPG I can discuss PDF sales and my
reasons for how I will be doing things going forward.

I stated this over on the Gloire Yahoo Group and I am
repeating it here. In cases where a printed book is
created, I am holding off on PDF sales until after a
physical book has reached the local stores and they
have had a chance to sell it. This time frame will be
two weeks. So, if a book is released on Nov. 1st on
Nov. 15th the PDF will go on sale. I encourage
everyone to support their store of choice and pick it
up from them. The local stores (and even the internet
stores) are what make it possible for you to find
opponents. If they sell and promote the game it
reaches more people than what I can do alone.

For the first approximately 45 days of the PDF sales,
you will only be able to get the PDF directly from me.
This means you will need to be able to accept an
e-mail with an approximatyely 4Mb attachment in order
to get the PDF and that the delay before you receive
it may be up to 24 hours. The reason for this change
is that RPGNow will be raising the amount they take
off each sale by about 30% from current levels (about
17% if I sign an exclusive agreement with them).
Either way is a large hit to what I would get.
At the end of the second month following the book
release, the PDF will be available through the two RPG
download sites (RPGNow and DriveThruRPG) until they
merge to just one site. This will be more for the
promotional aspects of the sites than actual sales and
I may still offer it through my site directly.

PDF prices will increase after the 45 day sales period
that I sell it exclusively. The price increase will
depend on the cost of the title."

It sounds to like prices for PDF's are about to go up huh?

Likely considering that Drivethru offers less return to publishers than RPGnow...

He should just go through LuLu.  They offer PDF hosting now, in addition to the POD stuff.

What do you want us to do, take the increase ourselves? Margins are slim enough. I'm seriously thinking of an across the board price increase.

-clash

What do our friendly local game designers who use RPGnow think?

How anti-competitive is this?  CLASSIC monopolistic thinking.  Eliminate the competition then jack up prices.  Are there any alternative sites?

here's the press release for those who don't wan to look for it:

QuoteRPGNow and DriveThruRPG Merge

Atlanta, GA, Thursday, October 25, 2006 — RPGNow and DriveThruRPG announced today that the two leaders in the digital delivery of electronic roleplaying games have merged together to form a new company called OneBookShelf.

OneBookShelf will continue to operate both the RPGNow and DriveThru websites while a new, fully integrated site is developed that will replace the existing sites. Publishers and titles that were once exclusive to one site will now conveniently be displayed on both sites so rpg fans can find all of their favorite titles on their preferred site.

Steve Wieck explained DriveThruRPG's desire to merge, "Our goal from day one has been to offer consumers their choice of any roleplaying game ever published available for instant download 24/7 world-wide. We will be able to meet that goal sooner by combining forces with RPGNow."

The merger is being treated as a merger of equals with all employees and owners of both companies carrying on with the new OneBookShelf company. DriveThru's latest digital delivery site DriveThruComics is also now part of OneBookShelf.

"The focus of the merger is providing the best experience for rpg fans. Combined with DriveThruRPG, we will now offer consumers over 9,000 titles from over 500 different publishers. Many of the titles have never been available in print or are no longer available in print," said James Mathe at RPGNow.

Both RPGNow and DriveThru will be down for a few hours tomorrow as the content of the sites is cross-listed.

OneBookShelf also announced that it has formed partnerships with the two largest rpg community sites, RPGnet and EN World to operate download stores connected to those community sites. Fans can support their favorite community site by purchasing from the new EN World and RPGnet download stores.

Shannon Appelcline of RPGnet said :"I think it's great for the rpg community that RPGNow and DriveThruRPG are joining forces. Once the new RPGnet download store is unveiled, it will give the RPGnet community even more convenient access to instantly get the best top brand and indie rpg titles available, while supporting RPGnet at the same time".

Russ Morrissey, owner of EN World described the new partnership with OneBookShelf: "This is a winning situation for everyone involved - customers, publishers, OneBookShelf and EN World.  We should have done this years ago!  Now EN World's members can support their favourite publishers and EN World at the same time!  And EN World can support those publishers without worrying about who's buying what where.  In addition, we at EN World get to concentrate on what we do best - D&D news, and a fun community.

"EN World has been a fundamental part of growing the RPG PDF industry from the outset, as a great source of information and reviews for the customers and a fantastic source of marketing for the publishers.  We've decided to partner with OneBookShelf for the operation of the EN World download store because they can provide our community more title choices, from Wizards of the Coast to EN Publishing, to the newest independent publishers, and they can provide the level of customer support to which we feel this wonderful community is entitled."

"We are in discussion with more potential partners as well," said James Mathe of OneBookShelf. "Our goal is to allow all publishers to load their titles with us and be assured that they are reaching every corner of the rpg community world-wide. Publishers can devote their time to creating great content and communicating with their fans."

One consequence of the affiliate stores is that the RPGNow site which had been divided into a main site and an RPGEdge site devoted to small press rpgs will now combine all publishers into a single RPGNow site.

Quote from: J ArcaneHe should just go through LuLu.  They offer PDF hosting now, in addition to the POD stuff.

thr problem is ( I think) that Lulu does not get anywhere near the traffic specificlly for RPGs that Drivethru or RPGnow get.

Quote from: flyingmiceWhat do you want us to do, take the increase ourselves? Margins are slim enough. I'm seriously thinking of an across the board price increase.

-clash

I don't blame anyone for raising prices if they are being charged more by RPGnow/Drivethru. Crap, RPG publisher don't make all that much so every buck that comes out of your profits hurt.

So, more or less, DriveThruRPG and RPGNow/Edge are now one and the same, and RPGNow will be raising prices to match those of DTRPG?

And, since they now hold a virtual monopoly on PDF RPGs, I'm guessing a further price increase on top of that may be in order?

Wow,  talk about killing any interest in the stuff I may have been forming.

Quote from: GabrielSo, more or less, DriveThruRPG and RPGNow/Edge are now one and the same, and RPGNow will be raising prices to match those of DTRPG?

And, since they now hold a virtual monopoly on PDF RPGs, I'm guessing a further price increase on top of that may be in order?

Wow,  talk about killing any interest in the stuff I may have been forming.

yup, that pretty much sums it up.

The one good thing is I think they might over estimate their monopoly and the other smaller PDF vendors will see growth by offering lower fees to publishers and thus lower prices.

Quote from: Mcrowyup, that pretty much sums it up.

The one good thing is I think they might over estimate their monopoly and the other smaller PDF vendors will see growth by offering lower fees to publishers and thus lower prices.

Hell, I'm thinking of a service that works over bittorrent and makes money off google ads and offer publishers the service for free.  I'll have to think about it some more, but it would seem to be doable.

There are alternatives. Most of them are not great.
1. Paizo
2. e23 SJG site
3. Digital Book Booth...meh.
4. LULU...meh.
5. Arima - in Italy

And a lot of smaller less well known stores. In the end, if you want to continue to do business as a PDF publisher you will find a way to make the merger work for you. I would suggest anyone looking for PDFs at their current price purchase them before December 1st.

I just keep feeling like Lando on the cloud city and James and Steve (especially Steve) are Darth Vader.

Bill

Quotethr problem is ( I think) that Lulu does not get anywhere near the traffic specificlly for RPGs that Drivethru or RPGnow get.

I think if an author is looking at being gouged that much, then it behooves them to just do a little extra promotion to make for that fact then.

Lulu is like Amazon, it's just a big site that carries all kinds of stuff.  So you have to let people know your book is there.

I'd rather take the little bit of extra effort, if it means I make more money in the end.

Quote from: HinterWeltI would suggest anyone looking for PDFs at their current price purchase them before December 1st.

Thanks for the heads-up.

QuoteI just keep feeling like Lando on the cloud city and James and Steve (especially Steve) are Darth Vader.

That really sucks. :(

Quote from: GabrielSo, more or less, DriveThruRPG and RPGNow/Edge are now one and the same, and RPGNow will be raising prices to match those of DTRPG?

And, since they now hold a virtual monopoly on PDF RPGs, I'm guessing a further price increase on top of that may be in order?

Wow,  talk about killing any interest in the stuff I may have been forming.

Um, a lot of Publishers on DTRPG are big publiahers who charge almost as much for pdfs as for print. Us small, primarily pdf, guys are not raising prices that much. I may be raising prices 5%, less than the increase, which is 10-15% more. Hopefully the wider exposure makes up for the difference. That's 5 cents on the dollar. Some of the smaller companies may have to raise prices the whole 15%, but I can absorb some of that.

-clash

Quote from: The Evil DMRichard Johnson over at rattrap productions just posted this to a message board for his miniature game:

BTW do you have a link to the actual message board post?

Quote from: HinterWeltThere are alternatives. Most of them are not great.

I'm curious -- what would it take for there to be a great alternative?

I got a free product from one of them once, and when my ISp collapsed and i got a new one, then got a new computer I found I couldn't use the free prodiuct due to DRM.

Needless to say, it put me off buying pdf products.

Quote from: blakkieBTW do you have a link to the actual message board post?

Sure. It's at
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/HLSS/?yguid=210530151

Thanks.

I suspect the barriers to entry for new PDF distributors are fairly low. That is, I for one am not inclined to "browse the racks" at a virtual storefront. Instead I learn about product from other sources, I visit the creator's website, and then I'm directed from there to whatever service they use. (Or I use Froogle, though not for PDFs...yet.)

So I suspect that if there's money to be made at RPGNow prices, someone else will step in to provide competition to the newly merged entity.

Is IPR set up to do PDFs?

Hm. I see that Key20 does PDFs. I have no idea how they stand in terms of fees.

Quote from: RezendevousI'm curious -- what would it take for there to be a great alternative?

Totally subjective but for me:
Primary is Traffic.

Second is customer experience. RPGNow has some problems on this front and DTRPG more but basically, the ability to find what you are looking for with a minimum of fuss, a professional looking site and ease of purchase.

Third, publisher tools. I will fold a 25-30% rate into this one. The tools need to facilitate upload, promotion and revision of products. DTRPG and RPGNow did this well (RPGNow the best) and ENGS sucked donkey.

That is off the top of my head. I am sure Clash could come up with a few. To be honest, it would be tough to compete with DTRPG or RPGNow when they were separate, after the merger I think it will be even rougher.

Bill

Quote from: Dominus NoxI got a free product from one of them once, and when my ISp collapsed and i got a new one, then got a new computer I found I couldn't use the free prodiuct due to DRM.

Needless to say, it put me off buying pdf products.

None of the RPGNow pdfs are DRMed, and the vast majority of DTRPG's pdfs - none of mine, for example - are DRMed. The most common method of protection at DTRPG is watermarking.

-clash

Quote from: HinterWeltTotally subjective but for me:
Primary is Traffic.

What would you consider a "good" range of visitor numbers?

Quote from: HinterWeltTotally subjective but for me:
Primary is Traffic.

Second is customer experience. RPGNow has some problems on this front and DTRPG more but basically, the ability to find what you are looking for with a minimum of fuss, a professional looking site and ease of purchase.

Third, publisher tools. I will fold a 25-30% rate into this one. The tools need to facilitate upload, promotion and revision of products. DTRPG and RPGNow did this well (RPGNow the best) and ENGS sucked donkey.

That is off the top of my head. I am sure Clash could come up with a few. To be honest, it would be tough to compete with DTRPG or RPGNow when they were separate, after the merger I think it will be even rougher.

Bill

No - I think you nailed it, Bill, in order.

-clash

Quote from: PaulChapmanWhat would you consider a "good" range of visitor numbers?

I am not sure to be honest. All I can say is I have always been happy with RPGNow volume. It seems the advertising with them is fairly effective for me as is a lot of their promotional tools.

If traffic equates to sales I would through out a bottom of $150 per month net and be quite happy with $200. Nice supplemental money for the print side and rather modest IMHO.

Bill

Since I'm primarily a pdf publisher, my minimum requirements are about twice Bill's. I don't have a lot of print sales to fall back on.

-clash

Quote from: HinterWeltI just keep feeling like Lando on the cloud city and James and Steve (especially Steve) are Darth Vader.

Are you going to fly the Millenium Falcon into the heart of the Death Star and blow it up?

Quote from: flyingmiceWhat do you want us to do, take the increase ourselves? Margins are slim enough. I'm seriously thinking of an across the board price increase.

About fifty cents should do it. Seriously.

For those who don't know, the way the sales of pdfs on these sites work is that you upload the thing, they host it and process the payments and delivery, and they take a percentage of your sales, a commission. Say that commission is 25%; it could be 25% of $100, or 25% of $1, the site doesn't care (there's some minimum commission like 75 cents, I think, to cover credit card fees, can't recall). People were on all different contracts, but basically all the vendors already on Drivethrurpg will see no increase in commission at all, and those on RPGNow.com will see it go from 25% or 30% to 30% (if you go exclusive with the new site), or 35% (if you want to sell your stuff at other sites).

So at the very worst, you'll see the commission go from 25% to 35%. That means your profit on the $10 pdf will go from $7.50 to $6.50. That's significant if you're a big guy like Phil Reed making a living from pdfs, and pulling in thousands of dollars of sales a month, but it's not significant if you're a part-time or hobbyist guy like most of the vendors on RPGNow.com.

Our pdfs range in price from about $3 to $12, as do those of most vendors on RPGNow.com. The average increase in commissions will be from 25% to 30% - may as well sign an exclusive contract with the new site, because all the other sites' sales are just insignificant in comparison to these two sites, that 5% dfference in commission is more than the sales the other sites would get us.

So a rise of fifty cents on each product will easily cover the rise in commissions, and I doubt very strongly it'll have an effect on sales. If you are counting every last fifty cents in your wallet, then I doubt very strongly you'll be able to afford a computer, internet connection and printing.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI suspect the barriers to entry for new PDF distributors are fairly low.

You need a complete product which doesn't look like absolute shite. Just mediocre is okay, people will buy it. Then you need either $40 to get a vendor account set up on the e-distributor site, or you need to buddy up to someone already signed up, and sell your stuff through them. If you cannot manage forty bucks, or enough social skills to get some vendor to bother looking at your stuff and uploading it, then you're pretty hopeless.

The main thing is just to be able to complete a product. There are a zillion people out there thinking how nice it'd be to be a writer, and plenty of them are gamers who have a homebrew rules system or setting. But actually completing a book isn't an easy thing. To have a good idea, and enough notes to be able to run it with your buddies at the game table, that ain't hard - to write it up so that anyone can read your book and use it in play, that's hard. For example, d4-d4 took about 120 hours of dedicated effort over eight weeks, and even with that effort only reached completion because I was lucky to score an excellent proofreader who'd proofed for far more talented and skilled people than me.

Most people who start a book will never finish it, that's a fact. All the other difficulties are just minor shit compared to actually finishing a whole book.

Don't worry about the prices, guys. Most prices won't go up at all, and those which do, it'll be something like fifty cents or a buck. That's not even one packet of cheetos :D

Quote from: Caesar SlaadAre you going to fly the Millenium Falcon into the heart of the Death Star and blow it up?

If I had a Falcon and a thousand years...maybe. :)

Bill

Quote from: MaddmanHell, I'm thinking of a service that works over bittorrent and makes money off google ads and offer publishers the service for free.  I'll have to think about it some more, but it would seem to be doable.

Could be interesting indeed, would support rather fast dloads as well.

Quote from: JimBobOzMost people who start a book will never finish it, that's a fact. All the other difficulties are just minor shit compared to actually finishing a whole book.

Tell me about it.  If blogs were working, I've got a whole entry about how difficult the last 6000-12000 words are

Yeah, if the increase is only 5%-15% I don't see that leaving a door open for a smaller vendor to take advantage.

The amount of lost traffic compared to the money saved in commission by going to a smaller site with the above increases wouldn't make enough of a difference.

Quote from: cnath.rmCould be interesting indeed, would support rather fast dloads as well.

That's what made me think of bittorrent.  The main cost for the distributor is bandwidth I'd imagine, and bt allows you to offer large files for download without raping your bandwidth.  Only thing is I don't know if you'd get enough people downloading at a time to make it worth it.

I just hate to see someone try to corner the market on what is essentially an ftp server with some shopping cart scripts.  And I HATE DTRPG's design.  That brick background is terrible, the thing looks like it's right out of 1997.  Still, it is a handy way for me to get Exalted comics.  I'd buy a lot more comic PDFs if I knew somewhere to get them.

From my Blog:


This is just stupid, frankly.

If you're a small publisher, you have no real motivation to stay with DTRPGNOW or whatever the fuck they call themselves.
Lulu is cheaper, and really: how many people would just go to DTRPGNOW thinking "I have no idea what I want to buy, i'm just going to browse the small press pdfs"?
Please.

Most people who go to a site like DTRPG or RPGnow do so because they already have a product in mind; a product they heard of somewhere else, that they are going to go buy. There is no concrete difference with them going to some other site to buy it compared to DTRPGNOW, and they will be more likely to buy the PDF the cheaper you can make it.
Since the usual suspects have decided to jack up the price thinking (erroneously) that they have a monopoly, its time for the smaller publishers to get the fuck out of dodge.

I say "erroneously" because there's two huge sources of competition: the first is, for small publishers, ANY OTHER FUCKING PDF-SELLING WEBSITE.  Like I said above, no one is going "window shopping" at these sites, or practically no one. If someone is going to buy Bumquist Productions' "Avocado: the Dipping RPG", they're going to do it because they already heard of the game, already decided they want the game, and they will figure out where to go to buy it. The only thing DTRPG has going for it for those kind of publishers is that it has the word "RPG" in the name, which I would guess is not worth a 30% price hike to you or your customers.  You're better off selling in Lulu, or any of the other mainstream PDF selling sites that aren't for uber-specialized fucking geeks who think the words "RPG" are important enough to pay 30% more; and trust that the one or two sales you might lose because you aren't on the DTRPGNOW will be more than made up for by being able to take in more profit from the sales from all the people who, hearing about you/seeing your site/clicking the link/etc. go to lulu and buy your PDF there.

But the second source of competition, in particular for the larger publishers, is the pirate networks.  These stupid fucks are dealing with pissed off people, who have never fully trusted DTRPG ever since the DRM fiasco, and now they want to raise prices the second that they've bought out their primary competitor? Fuck's sake.

I mean really, I could see a shitload of people saying, "well, the hell with that, I'm just going to over here to eMule and download the fucking thing for free, because I would rather be the one doing "the robbing" rather than being robbed".
Finally, of course, there's the difference between PDF and print. If that price range is very close, then many people will chose to suck up the extra couple of bucks and buy the print edition (and then possibly pirate or not pirate the PDF edition).

So all this is a case of DTRPG going mad with their own delusions of power. And just maybe, if publishers actually get smart about these things, it will not end well for them.

RPGPundit

I object to the whole thing because frankly, I've found DTRPG to be a bit shady at times. There's more than a few people who aren't, but everyone's being shouted down with bogus "increased traffic" bullshit.

The increased traffic they're talking about is the combined RPGNow, ENWorld Gamestore, & DTRPG traffic. Well, that's pretty fucking bogus "increased traffic" stats.

Yeah, it's increased from DTRPG's traffic alone, but seriously, it's pretty fucking shady.

Then: Exclusive contracts.

That's hinky enough...

But let us not forget who runs DTRPG...

WHite Wolf. The wonderful people who have shown they're perfectly willing to fuck people over. Remember their trying to charge LARPers for play?

You can bet your sweet ass that something will come down the pipe that's completely outrageous within a year.

I love how the people who are talking the loudest about how great this is, are the same people who are profiting the most from the merger.

I'm taking a 30% pay cut on my products. Now, my math may be wrong, but what the fuck, when it comes to my Wild Turkey budget, I deserve to be able to engage in a bit of hyperbole.

I get 30% of the sales. AFTER the distributer cuts.

Now, it used to be 25% for the distrubtor, leaving 75 cents on the dollar.

Of that, I got 25 cents off the dollar

NOW...

The distributor takes that nice 35% cut.

That means they leave 65 cents.

of that, I get 21.5 cents.

3.5 cents on the dollar may not sound like much, but for those 3.5 cents on the dollar, I'm not recieving anything new except for a false increase in traffic, and someone punching me in the balls and telling me it's a blowjob.


I don't like it. No, sir, not one bit.

Quote from: RPGPunditLulu is cheaper, and really: how many people would just go to DTRPGNOW thinking "I have no idea what I want to buy, i'm just going to browse the small press pdfs"?
Please.

I think that is where you are wrong. Massively, wrong.

I think most people who buy PDFs actually do go to RPGnow or whatever other site and say "lets check out the Sci-Fi section for a new game" without having any specific game in mind. If this were not the case the publishers would not care so much about traffic. If the primary way buyers ended up seeing your products was because they saw a review/add/thread about it elsewhere then traffic wouldn't be much of factor for publishers. The bottom line is PDF sites (IMO) have a high impulse buy factor.

For the record, you can get FanPro's RPGs (Shadowrun, Battletech, etc) from Battlecorps, without watermarks. IIRC, Paizo's online store and several others sell them too.

Quote from: RPGPunditBut the second source of competition, in particular for the larger publishers, is the pirate networks.  These stupid fucks are dealing with pissed off people, who have never fully trusted DTRPG ever since the DRM fiasco, and now they want to raise prices the second that they've bought out their primary competitor? Fuck's sake.

True, I've always thought that DTRPG is more than a bit out of touch with their market.  The prices are too high across the board, and they didn't see the DRM fiasco coming.  I think the problem is that for most games you can largely ignore the internet chatter.  To be honest, if every gamer on RPGnet or ENWorld decided to boycott WotC or WW, they'd never even notice.  With online distribution though, the angry internet nerds are a substantial portion of their fanbase.  And few things piss off angry internet nerds like DRM.  They might as well design their site so you can't buy files if you're using Firefox while they're at it.

I was one of the people leading the attack over the DRM nonsense, writing to publishers and encouraging people to buy DRM free PDFs at RPGnow.  I'm just glad they finally listened to reason and got rid of the spyware nonsense.  Don't try to keep me from doing whatever the fuck I want with my own files.

My biggest bitch about them now (so long as I'm ranting and PDF publishers are listening) is that sometimes you buy a file and it's locked down.  Generally its the bookmarks that get me - I like a PDF to be set up with nested bookmarks - one for each chapter then expand the tree to get each section.  I have Acrobat, so if they aren't set up I don't mind doing them myself.  But don't make me hunt down a crack after not doing good bookmarks.

Okay, nerd rage over.  :p

I guess since the beans are spilt...

I am not happy but, clearly, have no choice.
If I stick with things as they are I'm taking a 10% extra chunk out of my money and while this is supposed to be a merger I rather suspect DTRPG is the dominant partner.

As a smaller publisher I worry about getting sidelined and losing prestige and exposure to the bigger companies on DTRPG, the ones who overcharge, have unrealistic expectations and whose whining about sharing 'shelf space' with the smaller publishers lead to the creation of Edge.

I'll wait to see how things turn out but from where I'm sitting at the moment it looks like I'll be charged more and make less sales while losing some of the functionality and exposure that was the best aspect of RPGnow.

With the dollar as crap as it is and with me being in the UK, any hit is a harsh hit.

Quote from: GRIMAs a smaller publisher I worry about getting sidelined and losing prestige and exposure to the bigger companies on DTRPG, the ones who overcharge, have unrealistic expectations and whose whining about sharing 'shelf space' with the smaller publishers lead to the creation of Edge.

And this is the real meat of it. Suddenly, we (small publishers which include giants like Ronin Arts) will be buried with WOTC and the like. DTRPG is notorious for dropping small publishers low in their menu scheme. It will be doubly worse with a vast amount of back stock that these publishers can pump out. We have seen this in microcosm at RPGNow just recently with Hero games dumping a bunch of their old mag titles across the front page.

Which brings me to Pundit's points. Direct referral is a means of getting sales but front page exposure and new releases make up a lot of publisher's sales. This is gleaned from talking with them and the referral mechanism that RPGNow has.

I want to clarify, I do not believe this is the End of Times. I am a publisher and my costs have just increased. I hope you can understand my (and other publisher's) frustration. To just write off OBS would be a bad move for any publisher serious about selling quantities of PDFs. Is 10% increase going to drive anyone out of business? I can't imagine the situation but you will see a jump of at least $.50 from some publishers. Some publishers are already at 35% so they may or may not but it would be a great opportunity for them to do so. Adamant (GMS) has said they will not increase prices.

So, not happy about paying more for the same service. I will be looking into alternatives. I think the PDF market will survive this.

Bill

Please allow me to preface this with the statement that I do not support the pirate movement. I understand peoples' reasons for doing so, I just happen to think that taking someone's intellectual property is not the solution.

Having said that, and knowing that there are several small-press publishers here, I'm curious about something.  Let's say I want one of your products, but this price change really pisses me off. So I go to a pirate and get it and then directly sent you the money. Would you and I be cool? What price would I use?

Just curious...

Quote from: HinterWeltSo, not happy about paying more for the same service. I will be looking into alternatives. I think the PDF market will survive this.

Bill

Me too. As it looks like they are already avidly courting e23, the only worthwhile alternative, options get slimmer and slimmer. Let me know if you think of anything, Bill. I have a lot more pressure on me because pdfs are the backbone of Better Mousetrap - we sell a lot of pdfs. I don't want to increase prices, I don't want to go exclusive, but it looks like I'm being forced to do both just to stay where I am. Leaving the new combined site is no solution - that's 90-95% of my sales. Staying non-exclusive means a somewhat higher price hike, and if e23 goes the combine route, there is no viable reason not to. I have no print distribution outside of Cold Space, and that looks shaky now that GMS has taken over that company. I would desperately like some option that gives me a little flexibility, but things seem to be closing in rather than opening out.

-clash

Quote from: James J SkachHaving said that, and knowing that there are several small-press publishers here, I'm curious about something.  Let's say I want one of your products, but this price change really pisses me off. So I go to a pirate and get it and then directly sent you the money. Would you and I be cool? What price would I use?

Just curious...

I'd send you back your money without a word. I've done it before and I'll do it again. The "pirates" violate my IP. I choose not to sell ransom-ware or charity-ware. If you choose to deal this way, don't look to me for support.

In my personal opinion Copyright law is seriously broken, but until there is a better solution, I can take no other stance. If I do, I lose my Copyright, and my IP becomes public domain. By law. If a Copyright isn't defended, it becomes worthless.

Understand?

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceMe too. As it looks like they are already avidly courting e23, the only worthwhile alternative, options get slimmer and slimmer. Let me know if you think of anything, Bill. I have a lot more pressure on me because pdfs are the backbone of Better Mousetrap - we sell a lot of pdfs. I don't want to increase prices, I don't want to go exclusive, but it looks like I'm being forced to do both just to stay where I am. Leaving the new combined site is no solution - that's 90-95% of my sales. Staying non-exclusive means a somewhat higher price hike, and if e23 goes the combine route, there is no viable reason not to. I have no print distribution outside of Cold Space, and that looks shaky now that GMS has taken over that company. I would desperately like some option that gives me a little flexibility, but things seem to be closing in rather than opening out.

-clash

Alright, you asked for it Clash. :)

I currently run a system called the M-5 Retailer Managment System from our own servers. I have been thinking about expanding to pick up PDF sales. This would include researching a download solution (thinking Linklock), and payment options (thinking PayPal merchant services to allow CC and Paypal). In the end, I may look into a pre-packaged e-commerce system. In terms of marketing, I already am in place for a lot of in print and online advertising with HinterWelt. Also, I know my way around search engines.

So, the exclusivity clause says "Though shalt not sell on competing sites but selling from your company site is O.K." Just a thought, but HinterWelt becomes an imprint of BMT Games and "we" start selling from our site. I think now would be a time to consider apporaching someone like Phil at RA. He has said as much as "I would bur I do not have the knowledge".

Now, this would not be a big of big site but it could give you an alternative to  OBS.

Big Caveat: I am brainstorming here. This is the first of my thoughts and I have no problems with crits and suggestions.

So, what do you think?

Bill

Quote from: flyingmiceI'd send you back your money without a word. I've done it before and I'll do it again. The "pirates" violate my IP. I choose not to sell ransom-ware or charity-ware. If you choose to deal this way, don't look to me for support.

In my personal opinion Copyright law is seriously broken, but until there is a better solution, I can take no other stance. If I do, I lose my Copyright, and my IP becomes public domain. By law. If a Copyright isn't defended, it becomes worthless.

Understand?

-clash

Word. If you do not defend it, you lose it.

Bill

Quote from: flyingmiceI'd send you back your money without a word. I've done it before and I'll do it again. The "pirates" violate my IP. I choose not to sell ransom-ware or charity-ware. If you choose to deal this way, don't look to me for support.

In my personal opinion Copyright law is seriously broken, but until there is a better solution, I can take no other stance. If I do, I lose my Copyright, and my IP becomes public domain. By law. If a Copyright isn't defended, it becomes worthless.

Understand?

-clash

I think If I were a publisher and someone did that for one of my games that I would be more offended that if they just stole it outright.

Bill:

For me, in a heartbeat. I'm posting this up on our internal website for the other Imprint owners to comment on.

-clash

:emot-rock: am I hearing that Hinterwelt and Bettermouse trap might be join forces?

That would be a dream team.

Curious from publishers...

Does this "exclusivity" agreement include the publishers having their own web store on their site?

I'm thinking no, but wondering.

I've never understood why PDF publishers do their sales through a third party site. Unless the publisher lacks the technical expertise or money needed to set up an online store, I'm not clear on what benefit a site like DTRPG or RPG Now offers.

In theory, those sites bring all the PDF consumers into one place. However, a publisher still needs to drive interest in his products through ads, press releases, posts at the pro-PDF boards (EN World, maybe RPG.net), and everything else. Is there really much to gain by sending people who are ready to spend money on your stuff to someone else's web site?

No, it doesn't Ceasar. We can have our own sales on our own website and not violate the exclusivity.

-clash

Quote from: mearlsI've never understood why PDF publishers do their sales through a third party site. Unless the publisher lacks the technical expertise or money needed to set up an online store, I'm not clear on what benefit a site like DTRPG or RPG Now offers.

In theory, those sites bring all the PDF consumers into one place. However, a publisher still needs to drive interest in his products through ads, press releases, posts at the pro-PDF boards (EN World, maybe RPG.net), and everything else. Is there really much to gain by sending people who are ready to spend money on your stuff to someone else's web site?

There is if you don't have the technical expertise or time to set up your own site. The best thing about mega sites is that they are like malls, catching the people who have money to spend but may never have heard of you.

-clash

Quote from: Mcrow:emot-rock: am I hearing that Hinterwelt and Bettermouse trap might be join forces?

That would be a dream team.

My thoughts exactly! :D

-clash

Quote from: mearlsI've never understood why PDF publishers do their sales through a third party site. Unless the publisher lacks the technical expertise or money needed to set up an online store, I'm not clear on what benefit a site like DTRPG or RPG Now offers.

In theory, those sites bring all the PDF consumers into one place. However, a publisher still needs to drive interest in his products through ads, press releases, posts at the pro-PDF boards (EN World, maybe RPG.net), and everything else. Is there really much to gain by sending people who are ready to spend money on your stuff to someone else's web site?

I'm pretty sure more than half of the PDFs I've bought off of RPGnow were items I didn't know existed prior to flipping through the site.  Would I have found that stuff without a multi-publisher store?  Maybe.

Quote from: jrientsI'm pretty sure more than half of the PDFs I've bought off of RPGnow were items I didn't know existed prior to flipping through the site.  Would I have found that stuff without a multi-publisher store?  Maybe.

I think that's typical. These places are set up for impulse shopping.

-clash

Whoa. I respect Hinterwelt a great deal, I'd have no personal issues with such a move.

Guys - please don't take offense.  As I said, I do not believe in the entire "I don't like the way X treats me so I'm going to take their stuff" argument that started lo these many years ago with mp3's.  It was just a question - though after your response an admittedly stupid one.  I forgot about the part where if you don't defend your copyright, it's public domain.

While I don't have any of your games now, mostly due to lack of time or money for new games, I admire what you're doing and hope you can find a good solution for you and your customers.

No offense was meant, and no offense taken, James! I was just trying to point out the facts. I just hope that someday someone can fix the IP laws so that they work properly and seamlessly, and promote rather than prevent innovation and creativity.

-clash

Wow, some of the discussion damn near borders on "Wanna go outside about it?:"

I've bought a fair amount of pdfs but I've never bought one from browsing rpgnow or the other sites. The previews are usually too small to get a handle on the material like I can with flipping through a book.  

The typical first purchase from a publisher for me is based off of word of mouth (in person or online) then I find reviews and look at the publisher's website.  If I buy, I go wherever the publisher links to.  For buyers like me, a pdf vendor adds zero sales.

Maybe a few of the small publishers should try doing a few polls on their website about initial sales/how the buyer first heard of them to see how typical of a buyer I am, to gauge how feasible a small collective is likely to be.

Speaking strictly as a consumer, I hate PDF's anyway. Call me old fashioned, call me stupid, call me the Inane Pika of DOOM!!!! but I just can't read the damn things unless I print the fucker out first.  That gets pretty damned expensive in some cases.

Unless the PDF is incredibly small and cheap I don't want to touch it.  At best I use them to preview stuff I'd like to buy in hardback.

That said, I've bought a few bigger products as PDF, mostly when I was far from LGS's and other places to buy books, but even that tends to wane in the face of Amazon and other mail order resources.  But to me a PDF needs to be cheap in order for me to consider it at all. If it's full book price you can kiss my ass, I ain't buying no more.

As for DTRPG, I've used it to browse and windowshop quite a bit.  The browsability and windowshoppiness is still there, no mistake. Impulse buying as well.  Don't dismiss that.  I can't browse for a game I've never heard of from teh publisher's site.

It sounds like a lot of people are pissed off about this. Some of the better small press publishers are not happy.

all sorts of stuff going on in the rpg.net thread.

an interesting pint made by one the posters was that he already had products posted on both sites. He asked how exactly will he be seeing increased traffic with the merger? Then Phil Reed pointed out that with the increased costs he could lose $5k  or more over the next year unless he raises prices.

Quote from: McrowIt sounds like a lot of people are pissed off about this. Some of the better small press publishers are not happy.

all sorts of stuff going on in the rpg.net thread.

an interesting pint made by one the posters was that he already had products posted on both sites. He asked how exactly will he be seeing increased traffic with the merger? Then Phil Reed pointed out that with the increased costs he could lose $5k  or more over the next year unless he raises prices.

The ones this hurts are the larger small press. The big guys price their pdfs the same as their print books - plenty of margin there! The little guys wind up five bucks short each month. No biggie - anything they get is extra money. For us guys in the middle, it hurts.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceThe ones this hurts are the larger small press. The big guys price their pdfs the same as their print books - plenty of margin there! The little guys wind up five bucks short each month. No biggie - anything they get is extra money. For us guys in the middle, it hurts.

-clash

and personally thats that part that pisses me off about this. Its the companies that make their money purely (or nearly) off of PDFs. Like BMTG, PIG, Ronin Arts, and others. Guys like Bill it won't hurt quite so bad because he has a strong print division, but still he would stand to lose some on this to.

Makes you wonder why they haven't thought about what would happen if Ronin Arts, Better Mouse Trap, Hinterwelt, and some of the other upper end small press guys left the site. They could stand to loose some mony if that were to happen.

Quote from: NicephorusFor buyers like me, a pdf vendor adds zero sales.

Maybe a few of the small publishers should try doing a few polls on their website about initial sales/how the buyer first heard of them to see how typical of a buyer I am, to gauge how feasible a small collective is likely to be.

Yeah, this is how I feel, and also what Pundit and Mearls think.

Do those PDF vendors provide you with any kind of analytical tools to tell you where your sales come from? E.g., couldn't they tell you what page the purchaser came from by logging http referrer?

Quote from: Mcrowand personally thats that part that pisses me off about this. Its the companies that make their money purely (or nearly) off of PDFs. Like BMTG, PIG, Ronin Arts, and others. Guys like Bill it won't hurt quite so bad because he has a strong print division, but still he would stand to lose some on this to.

Makes you wonder why they haven't thought about what would happen if Ronin Arts, Better Mouse Trap, Hinterwelt, and some of the other upper end small press guys left the site. They could stand to loose some mony if that were to happen.

You know, I think they have thought of it. I honestly doubt RA is going anywhere. If they even suggested it I am confident a Platinum Program would be invented and you would see their rate drop to 25% or lower.

As for BMT, they consistently rank much higher than HinterWelt. Still, I think James and Steve would be more worried about GR or Hero or WW leaving than all of the small press combined.They have said as much that the bottom 80% of vendors only make up 20% of their sales (yeah, the old 80/20 rule), and that bottom 80% were seriously being considered for cut-ville before the idea of the Edge came up.

Now, it may sound like I hate these guys but honestly I do not. I understand that they are taking an opportunity to raise rates at a logical time. Last time your electricity went up, did you freeze/have the lights go out? Go bankrupt? Bithc a hell of a lot? Bingo! That is what the small publishers are doing now. The smart ones are looking for alternatives. But let me tell you why...:)

More than the rate, you now have several sites that will be combined to one server (eventually). This from a guy who decided to upgrade his DB during a crash and another who had his forums hacked and personal data absconded with. I appreciate that this is bad luck in some ways and could happen to me, but now you have taken the redundancy out of the system. If OBS goes down you can;t skip over to RPGNow. On top of it, if you haven't taken a look at the OBS site you should, it looks like a lot of the same code is going to be reused.

So, HinterWelt at least will be seriously looking for backups. The problem being, LULU the most likely candidate, is competition. This means we are forced into the non-exclusive rate of 35%. Alternatively, our own site would be exempt and I could go exclusive with OBS and get the 30% rate. Meh. Not an easy decision.

Bill

Quote from: Elliot WilenYeah, this is how I feel, and also what Pundit and Mearls think.

Do those PDF vendors provide you with any kind of analytical tools to tell you where your sales come from? E.g., couldn't they tell you what page the purchaser came from by logging http referrer?

They do and it varies. A lot of sales (in most cases about 1/2) come from front page exposure. The rest mostly come from direct advertising (your site, referral from a press release, etc). Mind, this is my experience and the experience of other vendors I have talked to.

Clash?

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltOn top of it, if you haven't taken a look at the OBS site you should, it looks like a lot of the same code is going to be reused.

Bill

do you have a link?

Quote from: HinterWeltThey do and it varies. A lot of sales (in most cases about 1/2) come from front page exposure. The rest mostly come from direct advertising (your site, referral from a press release, etc). Mind, this is my experience and the experience of other vendors I have talked to.

Clash?

Bill

About the same. It doesn't really vary much.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceAs it looks like they are already avidly courting e23...

Our Official Statement:)

e23 Remains Independent
    We were ALMOST as surprised as the rest of you by the OneBookShelf ad page (it's been taken down now, but was e23.rpgnow.com). We hadn't seen it. We HAD been asked if we would listen to a buyout offer. This is a business; we have a very good relationship with PSI, which is part of the same family of companies, so we said "sure, we'll listen."
    We have not seen an actual offer. Given the news that OneBookShelf will be reducing the amount it pays to publishers, and given the unhappiness we have seen from some of those publishers today, we suspect it makes better business sense to stay independent.
    This is not pique at the leak. These things happen, and we wish the new combined OneBookShelf, which is certainly many times our size, lots of luck. This is just "Now that we have more information, we think we will be more successful, and serve both the players and the other publishers better, by remaining independent."
    Since we are not hiking our commission prices up from our usual 20%, Ronin Arts and other publishers will not be increasing the prices on products sold via e23.
--
Hope that answers most, if not all, of your e23 questions. If not, feel free to drop myself or Thomas (thomas@sjgames.com; the e23 Manager) a note.

Quote from: Mcrowdo you have a link?

nevermind I found it. Well the way the site looks now it does look as if the same guy is behind the design. :eek:

Jesus, they wanted to buy out e23 too?

Good on you, Paul! Good for e23! I think you will come out winning through all this, thanks to DTRPG/WW's usually boneheadness.

RPGPundit

DTRPG's long been a fifth column for the various parasitical special interests that keep the dead-tree RPG inustry wheezing along.  E23's not much better though with it's policy of never selling a PDF of a book that's still in stock.

The only PDF site that actually serviced the RPG PDF industry was RPGNow and it's gone.

While E23 remaining independent is a good thing, it's a black day for RPG PDFs.

anyone else think it is a little underhanded of them to use the same endorsments list on both RPGnow and Drivethru for OBS?

see the link for examples:
http://www.onebookshelf.com/aboutus.html (http://www.onebookshelf.com/aboutus.html)

It seems to me that they are transfering these peoples endorsments from the other sites to OBS. They even changed the peoples quoted line by inserting OBS where rpgnow or drivethru was.

I think I might be upset If I were this people. Just because the endorse rpgnow does not mean they will like OBS.

That's a good point: I can imagine a lot of these people might have advocated for RPGnow, but would never have wanted to be seen as advocating for DTRPG, or its successor.

Anyways, I still advocate the new site should be named DTRPGNOW. Hah!

RPGPundit

Isn't it actually two new sites, suggesting that for their extra overheads our friendly indie publishers might not even get increased traffic?

Quote from: Mcrowanyone else think it is a little underhanded of them to use the same endorsments list on both RPGnow and Drivethru for OBS?

see the link for examples:
http://www.onebookshelf.com/aboutus.html (http://www.onebookshelf.com/aboutus.html)

It seems to me that they are transfering these peoples endorsments from the other sites to OBS. They even changed the peoples quoted line by inserting OBS where rpgnow or drivethru was.

I think I might be upset If I were this people. Just because the endorse rpgnow does not mean they will like OBS.

John and Joe both have said they did not o.k. the rewording or use of their endorsements for OBS.

Just to clarify,
Bill

Quote from: Caesar SlaadCurious from publishers...

Does this "exclusivity" agreement include the publishers having their own web store on their site?

I'm thinking no, but wondering.

No, exclusivity doesn't prevent folks from selling off their own site.

And to answer the OP question, my guess is that SOME vendor's prices will go up at SOME point.

Some folks might raise prices now just to compensate for the rate hike, some folks might wait and see how sales develop.

Hard to say.

Chuck

Quote from: Mcrow:emot-rock: am I hearing that Hinterwelt and Bettermouse trap might be join forces?

That would be a dream team.

Oh yeah. :)

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalE23's not much better though with it's policy of never selling a PDF of a book that's still in stock.

They won't do the GURPS core books >.< but the rest of the 4e books come out on pdf a couple of months after print. Off the top of my head stuff like Goodman Games' Dungeoncrawl Classics and some of Avenger Enterprises stuff is also in print, AE's 1248 vol. 1 was a pdf first and now is also in print, but it's not been dropped from e23.

No watermarking either, which I suspect DTRPG/RPGNow will likely move to for all its titles (or at least all new ones). Does seem behind on some companies titles though.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalE23's not much better though with it's policy of never selling a PDF of a book that's still in stock.

That's actually not e23's policy, but your overall point is valid -- for Steve Jackson Games products, we give the brick/mortar distribution network "first dibs" on new GURPS releases. Given that the "old fashioned" network supplies us with more income than e23 by an order of magnitude or two, it makes good business sense to do so.

However, we don't have any such prohibition on any other publishers who sell via e23. Nor do we prevent ourselves from publishing original material on e23, without making it available to the distribution chains.