Quote from: McrowI always thought Rolemaster was pretty crunchy. I count anything more complicated than D&D as "Heavy".

I always thought of RM chargen as extremely crunchy.  But I also consider actual gameplay incredibly smooth and simple.

I usually suggest JAGS-2 for people looking for a heavy system--but you're clearly hardcore! (this thread makes me happy!)

-Marco

Quote from: SosthenesYeah, that's what tables do to some people. But that's about all there is to RoleMaster. No fancy combat rules for every imaginable situation, no huge collection of advantages, flaws, edges, kung fu techniques etc.
The depth of the few mechanisms is quite intricate, but there's no huge volume of different options, at least in the basic set.

So yes, depends on what you call heavy. It's certainly not complicated, but it fills up some pages...

Check out the Martial Arts companion for a huge addon of kung techniques. It's an RMSS book but would transfer fairly easily.

They had merits and flaws in the form of background options in Character Law and Companion I. If you really want to go buck wild there's Talent Law, but I put that back on the shelf after flipping through and seeing the background option that lets you split yourself into multiple copies like Maddrox.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI always thought of RM chargen as extremely crunchy.  But I also consider actual gameplay incredibly smooth and simple.

Yeah, thats my thought. Gameplay wasn't that complicated, but It seems like it takes forever to roll up a character.

I'd recommend Silcore by Dreampod 9 as a pretty good Generic system with a nice level of crunch to it.

Is there some reason why 5th edition Hero System doesn't fit the bill. It is a pretty heavy system with complete freedom to make it however you want.

No reason at all. HERO is a heavy generic system. It fits the bill.

Rolemaster? Well, generic fantasy, yes. A generic system, like GURPS or HERO, no, not at all.

RM2 was IMHO crunchy, but not so much. RMSS/RMF, on the other hand, is a monster.:eek:

Quote from: SosthenesI'd say that RC D&D is more complicated than basic RM. As is 2nd edition and most certainly 3E...

In what facets of the games do you find the RC more complicated than basic Rolemaster?

Quote from: jrientsIn what facets of the games do you find the RC more complicated than basic Rolemaster?

Well, it's a close shave, and I'm talking about RC with all the options turned on. Character generation is faster, but then you have lots of options to consider during the game. A RM2 character is basically a collection of skills plus maybe spells. In D&D games, you've also got special class abilities and spells often act like small rules extensions, whereas in RM they mesh better with the general mechanism. Then you've got weapon mastery, name levels, vancian magic, a fuzzy skill system, an odd saving throw mechanism etc.

By no means I'm saying that RC D&D is really a very complex game, but neither is RM2. Once you get character creation behind you, it all boils down to some very few mechanisms that are universally used and easy to handle.

Quote from: SosthenesWell, it's a close shave, and I'm talking about RC with all the options turned on.

Okay, that makes some sense.  I generally don't use a lot of the optional material in the RC, so it looks much lighter than RM to me.

Quote from: jrientsOkay, that makes some sense.  I generally don't use a lot of the optional material in the RC, so it looks much lighter than RM to me.

It might also be different if you definition of "heavy" varies from mine. I don't have problems looking at tables, as long as I don't get to many referalls. What I consider heavy is many subsystems within the same rules. Shifting between different resolution mechanisms is something that cleary defies the term "light" for me and classic D&D is a major culprit in this area. To get into the "light" areay, you'd need additional rules simplifications, probably ending up with something like C&C.

One other defining moment of "heavy" rules is the presence of many options. And there I'd say that RM2 pales in comparison with something like HERO or D20. That's why I'd consider RM2 rules-medium. And even with SpaceMaster, it's not truly generic.

I've always been a fan of Masterbook/TORG, although that's probably not heavy enough, too. But this thread definitely got me looking into JAGS a bit more. Sounds quite interesting and judging from first looks its even readable. (Don't get me talking about the readability of free and small-press games...)

Quote from: SosthenesOne other defining moment of "heavy" rules is the presence of many options.

Part of the reason I think of RM2 as heavy is because the last time I tried to run it I had in front of me the core books and every Companion published at the time.  I think that was something like 7 or 8 total supplements.  That's a lot of options!

Quote from: ClaudiusRM2 was IMHO crunchy, but not so much. RMSS/RMF, on the other hand, is a monster.:eek:

You say that like it's a bad thing.  Honestly I think the difference is hugely overstated.  Yes, you need to have a character sheet that tells you which progression rates different skill categories run at, but so what it's just a couple more columns on a single chart.

The only things I wish they'd have done better in RMSS are:

Just hand out fixed language ranks by race.  Also in SPAM, just hand out specific skills instead of batches of ranks for every bloody category.  Really, when I think of it, I'd eliminate every last instance of non specific rank handouts.

The -15 for specific skills would be moved over to be a -30 for not having a rank in the category.

Intitative would be open ended d% instead of 2d10 because my players always like it beter that way.

Rolemaster 1st/2nd and Spacemaster 1st/2nd were generic fantasy and science fiction, that used the same system for both. Character generation was length, but game play was smooth. There is a lot of chart-looking up, but for me, that was one of the best parts of the game that provided a lot of fun.

GURPS 4 is a slick game. You can crunch it up a bit by using all the optional combat rules. It certainly is generic, in that it can be used to play a wide variety of genres. The free GURPS lite PDF will give you a decent idea of how the game runs. GURPS plays with a grittier feel than HERO, and in my experience combats run a little quicker.

HERO is the crunchiest of all IMO. It really takes a lot to break into initially. At times it seems to me the only way to learn is to have someone else walk you through. The game is pretty generic, with all the rules you need to run any genre in one book, and lots of supplements if you want more inspiration for a particular genre.

I haven't seen the latest editions of JAGS, but I'm going to check them out myself right now.

Quote from: GoOrangeI haven't seen the latest editions of JAGS, but I'm going to check them out myself right now.

Well, you know: tell me what you think

-Marco