I finally recieved my copy of Tunnels and Trolls version 5.5
I am still reading through it but it looks nice. It seems a little light on content which is a little disappointing but it I can make it work.
When I get a chance to read through it I will let you know what I think
I can't wait to see what you think. I enjoy it because it is a complete game, I can explain to others in a few minutes, and yet has tons of stuff in the book to use. All without filling it with pages and pages of fiction. Yet everyone has their own views on how much is enough, too little, or excessive.
Quote from: Silverlion;439731I can't wait to see what you think. I enjoy it because it is a complete game, I can explain to others in a few minutes, and yet has tons of stuff in the book to use. All without filling it with pages and pages of fiction. Yet everyone has their own views on how much is enough, too little, or excessive.
My one complaint so far is I wish the monsters section was done a little bit better.
I am really going to give it a read through this weekend because I have really looked forward to getting this.
One note: I didnt realize that this edition was so old.
Not a negative thing, just saying
Not to worry there are two more monster sections to come each unique in its handling of monsters.
One of the great things about T&T is it can be as simulationist or narrativist or gamist as you like.
Neat things about T&T:
1. It's a simple rules system overall, but you can add-on to make it more complex if you like.
2. You get to roll lots of dice.
3. The basic 5E game hasn't changed much in 20+ years, so it's stable.
4. Lots of 5E modules out there on e-bay or as free downloads on the 'net.
5. You can play it solo or with friends. (Easy to play solo!)
6. GM prep time is fast; monsters simple to generate.
7. Still supported by the original author from 1975.
Ohh, this game looks cool!
It also fits in nicely with my d6 fetish. I love the simple little things. And everyone has some lying around there house somewhere.
Coming from what I've read, it seems pretty fast-and-loose, if a bit goofier than D&D (although I often hear that OD&D campaigns were just as silly, people just tended to forget that).
Quote from: Peregrin;439825Ohh, this game looks cool!
It also fits in nicely with my d6 fetish. I love the simple little things. And everyone has some lying around there house somewhere.
Coming from what I've read, it seems pretty fast-and-loose, if a bit goofier than D&D (although I often hear that OD&D campaigns were just as silly, people just tended to forget that).
You should pick it up. It's very rules light fantasy which is pretty nice
If you like Tunnels & Trolls, can I suggest Forward to Adventure? It's a small press RPG written by RPGPundit and published by Flying Mice.
Forward to Adventure has a very similar ruleset, but exchanges the bucketd6 for 3d6. I liked Tunnels & Trolls, but FtA felt like the game that set out to fix all the wiggly issues I had with T&T (that would be REALLY large dice pools and eventually uninteresting combat).
You can increase the simulation level and reduce the dice pools by using the character stats for creatures rules, requireing fights to be broken down by singular combatants, and limiting the number of combatants per fight. So, you might have three goblins combining attacks against a troll, or a whole party combining attacks against a dragon but combat will generally be more about adds than dice.
One house rule I use is to restrict non-human characters by their rolls. You can't take a race with a x2 stat modifier unless that stat is a 9 or less. You can't take a race with a x3/2 stat modifier unless that stat is a 12 or less. Taking a 2/3 stat modifier on a stat of 9 or more will cancel out the limitation for a x3/2 and taking a x 1/2 on a stat of 12 or more will cancel out the limitation for a x 2.
Adding the Magic stat and having it replace Stength for powering spells is good option to use if you want to avoid the Conan the librarian syndrome. Characters should never be allowed to run through City of Terrors or Buffalo castle and then played.
If you avoid handing out magical doubling weapons, massive magical stat increases, and wonder weapons from the solo adventures the game remains far more functional at higher levels.
I have to say that I really dig what I have read in Tunnels and Trolls and I think it will be my go-to-fantasy game going forward.
As I said I like D&D and I have looked at other rules light fantasy games but none do things as well as Tunnels and Trolls.
Thanks for getting my hooked guys :)
Awesome. Glad you like it. Now to get someone to run it for me.
Well done. It's always great when you find a system that really clicks for you.
Quote from: Silverlion;440078Awesome. Glad you like it. Now to get someone to run it for me.
I have to say I like it and I did T&T so much I picked up the 7.5 version box set as well.
I am very tempted to run an online game as soon as I cruise through the rules a little more.
I may have found the game to make me give up on D&D 4e
Quote from: Soylent Green;440079Well done. It's always great when you find a system that really clicks for you.
Yep. Liked it so much I picked up the 7.5 box set as well. Really digging Tunnel and Trolls
Quote from: Daedalus;440085Yep. Liked it so much I picked up the 7.5 box set as well. Really digging Tunnel and Trolls
Great to hear its working for you!
Quote from: David Johansen;440010You can increase the simulation level and reduce the dice pools by using the character stats for creatures rules, requireing fights to be broken down by singular combatants, and limiting the number of combatants per fight. So, you might have three goblins combining attacks against a troll, or a whole party combining attacks against a dragon but combat will generally be more about adds than dice.
One house rule I use is to restrict non-human characters by their rolls. You can't take a race with a x2 stat modifier unless that stat is a 9 or less. You can't take a race with a x3/2 stat modifier unless that stat is a 12 or less. Taking a 2/3 stat modifier on a stat of 9 or more will cancel out the limitation for a x3/2 and taking a x 1/2 on a stat of 12 or more will cancel out the limitation for a x 2.
Adding the Magic stat and having it replace Stength for powering spells is good option to use if you want to avoid the Conan the librarian syndrome. Characters should never be allowed to run through City of Terrors or Buffalo castle and then played.
If you avoid handing out magical doubling weapons, massive magical stat increases, and wonder weapons from the solo adventures the game remains far more functional at higher levels.
I always thought part of the tactical charm is having lost Strength points actually cost combat effectiveness. (We thought for a while of using Luck as spell points - maybe on the pretext of Luck being unconscious use of magic to influence the situation - but whatever. Everyone does this differently).
City of Terrors isn't that high up in poweredupness - Deathtrap Equalizer and Naked Doom are probably the most awesome.
At least one of the published GM adventures - Dungeon of the Bear - is apparently designed to handle entire parties of completely over-the-top characters. The lower levels there have some really crazy stuff.
Of course you can streamline massive dice pools by just taking a few dice and multiplying (including Spite damage if you're using that).
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;440098Great to hear its working for you!
Yeah I think it is going to be my go-to rules light fantasy rpg
My guess is you may have stumbled onto Trollbridge but if not, this is a fun place to check out.
http://trollbridge.proboards.com/index.cgi (http://trollbridge.proboards.com/index.cgi)
Quote from: enelson;440279My guess is you may have stumbled onto Trollbridge but if not, this is a fun place to check out.
http://trollbridge.proboards.com/index.cgi (http://trollbridge.proboards.com/index.cgi)
I miss that one place--the tavern.....on Yahoo? Maybe.
Been reading through a copy of the rules the past few nights.
Really surprised at how well it seems to hold up considering that the core rules supposedly haven't changed in over a decade. Very well explained, internally consistent, simple but not too simple.
It's also nifty to see that wizards get a way to continually (well, till they die) cast spells at 1st level by spending an attribute...I think I've seen that used as a house-rule in OD&D (with HP rather than strength). Seems like they can do quite a bit to make some of that low-level adventuring a little less arduous for casters.
The only thing that bugs me is the best thing about the game -- it's sort of in a microcosm. The dungeon exists, the town exists, but there's not much else to it (at least compared to the more expansive wargame bits of OD&D). It makes for a great, focused dungeon-crawling game, but I'm wondering how it holds up over longer campaigns compared to D&D.
Quote from: Peregrin;440306Been reading through a copy of the rules the past few nights.
Really surprised at how well it seems to hold up considering that the core rules supposedly haven't changed in over a decade. Very well explained, internally consistent, simple but not too simple.
It's also nifty to see that wizards get a way to continually (well, till they die) cast spells at 1st level by spending an attribute...I think I've seen that used as a house-rule in OD&D (with HP rather than strength). Seems like they can do quite a bit to make some of that low-level adventuring a little less arduous for casters.
Yeah, its a great system. Which system are you reading? 5.5? 7.5?
Quote from: Peregrin;440306The only thing that bugs me is the best thing about the game -- it's sort of in a microcosm. The dungeon exists, the town exists, but there's not much else to it (at least compared to the more expansive wargame bits of OD&D). It makes for a great, focused dungeon-crawling game, but I'm wondering how it holds up over longer campaigns compared to D&D.
Pretty much the same way the D&D games I have played have run so I really dont see a difference or a problem
Quote from: David Johansen;439774...it can be as simulationist or narrativist or gamist as you like.
May Pundit protect us from this terminology of heresy!
Quote from: Daedalus;440379Yeah, its a great system. Which system are you reading? 5.5? 7.5?
Both 5e currently, and 7.5 soon once the boxed set comes in.
7.5 has lots of nifty updates and fixes, but I heard there was a lot of love for 5e/5.5e because it's aimed at people who've never played T&T before, whereas 7.5 skims over some bits.
5e is just plain more fun to read and looser. Yes I have both.
Quote from: Peregrin;440522Both 5e currently, and 7.5 soon once the boxed set comes in.
7.5 has lots of nifty updates and fixes, but I heard there was a lot of love for 5e/5.5e because it's aimed at people who've never played T&T before, whereas 7.5 skims over some bits.
I have 5.5 and I have 7.5 and I tend to like 7.5 a bit better because of the better rules and the box set with all of the fiddily parts
Quote from: David Johansen;439774One of the great things about T&T is it can be as simulationist or narrativist or gamist as you like.
In one sense, you could say that about every single RPG.
Of course, in another, more accurate sense, you would then be wrong about every single RPG.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Omnifray;440428May Pundit protect us from this terminology of heresy!
Done!
RPGpundit
The problem of course is that the terms don't really acurately divide the whole and were always intended as an argument in favor of narrativism as the "superior and mature" element.
I generally argue for constructing narrative through simulation which is exactly where T&T heads.
See T&T isn't actually simpler than OD&D let's talk about features it introduced that D&D didn't have at the time: spell points, armor as damage resistance, strength and dexterity requirements for weapons, huge lists of specific historical weapons with specific stats. Monsters treated as characters and monsters abstracted to a single value. Yeah, that's right T&T is the grandfather of "simulationism" and "narrativism". It's almost like someone sat down with OD&D and said "That doesn't make much sense and it frequently gets in the way of the story I want to tell."
Steering the conversation back on topic:
Does anyone know of a good place to find adventure Ideas for T&T? I don't want to buy from Outlaw because of their less then legal behavior
Quote from: Daedalus;440699Steering the conversation back on topic:
Does anyone know of a good place to find adventure Ideas for T&T? I don't want to buy from Outlaw because of their less then legal behavior
Any D&D module that doesn't assume Clerics are needed? They convert pretty well, I also grabbed the Solo's and tweaked them for groups.
Quote from: Silverlion;440731Any D&D module that doesn't assume Clerics are needed? They convert pretty well, I also grabbed the Solo's and tweaked them for groups.
Is that pretty easy to do or does it take alot of work
Quote from: Daedalus;440737Is that pretty easy to do or does it take alot of work
The solos aren't really written for use as group adventures. I did run Amulet of the Salkti like this once in a long term campaign, and same with Deathtrap Equalizer; tried and failed with City of Terrors on another occasion doing a one-off.
Any of the dungeon type modules the problem is that you don't have a map to work from, so ideally you'd go through beforehand (perhaps playing it) and draw a map. If I'd done that it probably would have saved me some trouble with Amulet, for instance. Captif D'Yvoire is another one that's quite good and might work this way. Naked Doom would, but its quite short.
City of Terrors failed as a group adventure just due to goofiness and often limited options in the text- you'd certainly have to be prepared to toss out stuff and invent stuff on the fly, and the city has about 500% as much going on as any sane place - orc invasions or human sacrifices in mid swing whenever you get there, Archers Guilds that the gods demand you go break into. The players found it pretty silly and they left to have a side adventure with pirates instead.
Arena of Khazan would be very easy to run for a group, but its basically just combat.
Deathtrap Equalizer or Beyond the Silvered Pane are weird adventures where you're teleported into an array of different situations basically by die roll (roll 3d6 to see where you start, or on the longer trip you go through 3 to 18 in order). Works, but fairly whimsical.
The adventures are good for inspiration though, and I've often used bits and pieces from them one way or another.
On the other hand, T&T as a system is so simple that converting an existing GM adventure from another system to T&T really should be a snap...assign some MRs, beef up NPCs by giving them some level-ups and looking up Dice+Adds of their weapons, assign some appropriate saving throws for anything tricky depending on how hard it is...pretty straightforward really.
Has anyone run Keep on the Borderlands using T&T?
If you want to run Clerics in T&T, there was an old Sorcerer's Apprentice article that included Priests in T&T. Did I mention Sorcerer's Apprentice was a cool magazine? Also there's an article on how to run Cthulu adventures with T&T before Call of Cthulu was released. Also a great short story by Karl Edward Wagner about his character Kane. Dang. I wish I could find old copies of that magazine.
Quote from: Daedalus;440737Is that pretty easy to do or does it take alot of work
Doing solo's takes more work than using D&D modules, since you can sub in monsters easy, but its a bit harder to get the pathing elements of solo modules to break open.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;440834On the other hand, T&T as a system is so simple that converting an existing GM adventure from another system to T&T really should be a snap...assign some MRs, beef up NPCs by giving them some level-ups and looking up Dice+Adds of their weapons, assign some appropriate saving throws for anything tricky depending on how hard it is...pretty straightforward really.
Cool. I havent gotten to that part yet as I am still working my way through the rulebook.
But that's good to know for the future.
Quote from: Silverlion;440852Doing solo's takes more work than using D&D modules, since you can sub in monsters easy, but its a bit harder to get the pathing elements of solo modules to break open.
Sounds like I would be better servered converting over D&D modules instead. thanks for the information
Quote from: Daedalus;440896Sounds like I would be better servered converting over D&D modules instead. thanks for the information
T&T modules are great fun, though. Mad and silly at times though.
Quote from: Silverlion;440902T&T modules are great fun, though. Mad and silly at times though.
I am not going to neglect them. I just want to keep all of my options open
Quote from: Daedalus;440699Does anyone know of a good place to find adventure Ideas for T&T?
The magazine I edit for Peryton Publishing, Elder Tunnels, is a magazine of T&T scenarios. We're on DriveThru RPG and Lulu. http://www.perytonpublishing.com/elder_tunnels.htm I had a blast working on the Halloween issue! The next issue will come out sometime in March. TrollsZine is another magazine focused on T&T. http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=83082
-Christy
There are several made for T&T dungeon crawls that can be hunted up online. Jim Peter's 'Dungeon of the Bear' is quite extensive and very, very lethal. There's also the 'Isle of Darksmoke' another dungeon setting. I've never run Darksmoke, but I have run Dungeon of the Bear a long time ago before I started building my own T&T world. It was a lot of fun and I can recommend it highly.
Quote from: Anat13;441756The magazine I edit for Peryton Publishing, Elder Tunnels, is a magazine of T&T scenarios. We're on DriveThru RPG and Lulu. http://www.perytonpublishing.com/elder_tunnels.htm I had a blast working on the Halloween issue! The next issue will come out sometime in March. TrollsZine is another magazine focused on T&T. http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=83082
-Christy
Thank you Christy, I will check that out. I am always looking for some good adventures to run as well as inspiration for my own campaign ideas.
Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;441757There are several made for T&T dungeon crawls that can be hunted up online. Jim Peter's 'Dungeon of the Bear' is quite extensive and very, very lethal. There's also the 'Isle of Darksmoke' another dungeon setting. I've never run Darksmoke, but I have run Dungeon of the Bear a long time ago before I started building my own T&T world. It was a lot of fun and I can recommend it highly.
Darksmoke you can pick up very cheap. Dungeon of the Bear seems more on the pricey side. I am going to keep my eye out for adventures
Quote from: Daedalus;441839Darksmoke you can pick up very cheap. Dungeon of the Bear seems more on the pricey side. I am going to keep my eye out for adventures
IIRC you would also actually already have part of Dungeon of the Bear, if you got Castle Ward with the rulebook. Dungeon of the Bear is a single adventure that includes Castle Ward + the dungeons under it i.e. its Ward plus some expansion.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;441896IIRC you would also actually already have part of Dungeon of the Bear, if you got Castle Ward with the rulebook. Dungeon of the Bear is a single adventure that includes Castle Ward + the dungeons under it i.e. its Ward plus some expansion.
Oh I wasn't awear of that. That's cool to know.
I am still working on learning the rules to T&T, they are well like reading stero instructions which is kind of a pain, but I will barrel through it.
Just an update, still working on the rules but I am finding the rule book at some points difficult to read (like reading an instruction booklet) and not as well explained as they could be.
But I haven't given up on T&T
Quote from: Daedalus;442922Just an update, still working on the rules but I am finding the rule book at some points difficult to read (like reading an instruction booklet) and not as well explained as they could be.
But I haven't given up on T&T
Yeah, I can understand that. I found it crisp and easy to understand, but I'm having a hard time with the "Indie" spun Smallville RPG.
Quote from: Daedalus;442922Just an update, still working on the rules but I am finding the rule book at some points difficult to read (like reading an instruction booklet) and not as well explained as they could be.
But I haven't given up on T&T
It's a little vague in places, but not so bad as OD&D.
But I may be a bit biased, since I've spent my leisure time in the past several months dissecting OD&D from the LBBs, Chainmail, and forum posters, and in comparison T&T is like crystal.
Quote from: Daedalus;442922Just an update, still working on the rules but I am finding the rule book at some points difficult to read (like reading an instruction booklet) and not as well explained as they could be.
Are you starting with 5e? It's much more clearly written than 7e.
Quote from: The_Shadow;442988Are you starting with 5e? It's much more clearly written than 7e.
Yeah. rarely has there been a system that people can play while barely looking at the rulebooks.
I remember adding engineers and priests to my old T&T games
Quote from: The_Shadow;442988Are you starting with 5e? It's much more clearly written than 7e.
It also has some notably different rules. 7th is also significantly different from 7.5, I gather, at least in terms of character improvement.
Vin's T&T Trollbridge (http://trollbridge.proboards.com/index.cgi?) is a fine place to ask questions.
If you tell us which version of the rule book you have, and what puzzles you, we here may be able to help as well.
I am currently reading 7.5 but I might look at my copy of 5.5 to see if it will clear things up.
Quote from: Phillip;442998It also has some notably different rules. 7th is also significantly different from 7.5, I gather, at least in terms of character improvement.
Vin's T&T Trollbridge (http://trollbridge.proboards.com/index.cgi?) is a fine place to ask questions.
If you tell us which version of the rule book you have, and what puzzles you, we here may be able to help as well.
I will probably check that out. I must say though that as I read through the book I am becoming less and less a fan of the system
You should have gone with FtA! instead!
RPGPundit
T&T plays better than it reads, but like OD&D you need a strong GM to turn the simple rules and system into a great adventure.
I'd focus first on 5e. Test it out with some players and see what you think.
The biggest issue with T&T is being descriptive with combat...otherwise it can easily fall into a battle of numbers. Actually, worse so than D&D.
BUT...if you go for it with the Saving Throws for stunts and make sure the numbers fuel big bold descriptions, T&T can be super fast, brutal and tremendous fun.
Quote from: LordVreeg;442995I remember adding engineers and priests to my old T&T games
Tell us about them!
Quote from: Spinachcat;443192T&T plays better than it reads, but like OD&D you need a strong GM to turn the simple rules and system into a great adventure.
I'd focus first on 5e. Test it out with some players and see what you think.
The biggest issue with T&T is being descriptive with combat...otherwise it can easily fall into a battle of numbers. Actually, worse so than D&D.
BUT...if you go for it with the Saving Throws for stunts and make sure the numbers fuel big bold descriptions, T&T can be super fast, brutal and tremendous fun.
Well I am going to try and chip away at learning the system. But if it doesnt get any better then I will probably be forced to give up, sell of T&T and try something else
Quote from: Daedalus;443359Well I am going to try and chip away at learning the system. But if it doesnt get any better then I will probably be forced to give up, sell of T&T and try something else
What are you having trouble with?
Quote from: Daedalus;443359Well I am going to try and chip away at learning the system. But if it doesnt get any better then I will probably be forced to give up, sell of T&T and try something else
I'm wondering why you're struggling so much...from your posts, your command of English seems fine (not being snarky here). 5e is well-edited and written, and relatively concise. 7e needs some serious editing, but for an experienced role-player it should be fairly easy to parse.
I just wanted to follow up with you guys. I have decided (Tunnels and Trolls had nothing to do with this) to give up on this hobby because it's just not fun anymore so I am selling my stuff and moving on to working on other projects and playing MMORPGS to get my game fix.
I appreciate the assistance both you Silverlion and others have given me.
Sorry to hear that, still, mmporgs give immediate gratification while rpgs give opportunity to craft something of your own. They are very differnt beasts at heart and if you can get what you need from an mmporg more power too you. There are days when I think we rpg gamers are like Fry's dog in Futurama, sitting on the corner for the rest of our lives waiting for our day.
Oh. Sorry to hear, man.
Then again, you just gotta do what makes you happy. If RPGs aren't fun anymore for you, then there's no reason to keep playing them.
ooof.
Definitely step away, but unless you are strapped for cash I wouldn't sell any of that stuff; you may want it in a year or ten.
Quote from: Daedalus;444515I just wanted to follow up with you guys. I have decided (Tunnels and Trolls had nothing to do with this) to give up on this hobby because it's just not fun anymore so I am selling my stuff and moving on to working on other projects and playing MMORPGS to get my game fix.
I appreciate the assistance both you Silverlion and others have given me.
Ah man... that sucks. I agree with Aos: just in case something specific triggered your burnout, I'd advise you to hold on a minute, and step away for a while. You never know. Your mojo might come back.
Quote from: Daedalus;444515I just wanted to follow up with you guys. I have decided (Tunnels and Trolls had nothing to do with this) to give up on this hobby because it's just not fun anymore so I am selling my stuff and moving on to working on other projects and playing MMORPGS to get my game fix.
I appreciate the assistance both you Silverlion and others have given me.
Well... bye.
RPGPundit
Quote from: David Johansen;444536Sorry to hear that, still, mmporgs give immediate gratification while rpgs give opportunity to craft something of your own. They are very differnt beasts at heart and if you can get what you need from an mmporg more power too you. There are days when I think we rpg gamers are like Fry's dog in Futurama, sitting on the corner for the rest of our lives waiting for our day.
Well the MMORPGS are going to be part of the process. I will get my game fix from them and I will use the other free time to working on programing projects and other projects I have needed to work on.
Quote from: Peregrin;444537Oh. Sorry to hear, man.
Then again, you just gotta do what makes you happy. If RPGs aren't fun anymore for you, then there's no reason to keep playing them.
Sadly, that is where I am at this point. 23 years is a good run
Quote from: Aos;444546ooof.
Definitely step away, but unless you are strapped for cash I wouldn't sell any of that stuff; you may want it in a year or ten.
I have taken breaks and then came back and it fixed the issue but only for a short time and then the burnout came back.
I am selling the stuff not because of being cash strapped (that is not a problem I have) but because I want to get away from the hobby totally and do other things.
I don't see me wanting to come back to this hobby. I think after 23 + years I have gotten all I am going to get out of it and I am just done
Quote from: Benoist;444548Ah man... that sucks. I agree with Aos: just in case something specific triggered your burnout, I'd advise you to hold on a minute, and step away for a while. You never know. Your mojo might come back.
It's just that the hobby doesnt bring enjoyment to me anymore. I have played online, played in person, played different games but nothing.
It's just total burnout.
I have taken breaks but it still hasn't helped. I think it's time for me to just move on. 23 years in the hobby was a good run. I just dont have the same excitement for playing anymore, I dont really forward to the next game like I used to