Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 05:58:53 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 31, 2021, 05:43:26 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:35:44 AM
Anyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire.

So what if racists implant dog-whistles in their fiction?  The only people who will notice are other racists.  Everyone else will just read the fiction.  If you can hear the whistle, you're the dog.

Writers have always used caricature in satire since time immemorial (it's kind of required), and I don't see why any particular subject of caricature is off limits.  Did Chaucer use class, age, or occupation as the basis for his satire? (Yes)  Did he use race? (Yes.  The Miller is Irish and the Merchant Jewish)  Should we cancel Chaucer now?  Caricature is based on stereotypes, and stereotypes that don't fit a person's experiences will be rejected by them, even as caricature.   

And people can't "accidentally internalize" racist messages when that subject is a fictional race.  They can't when it is a real race, either, but that's not the point here.  You cannot create a "racist" via a fictional creation.  Racism occurs when a person believes that one group of people is superior to another group of people just because of their race.  That isn't "accidental."  This argument is the kind of mental gymnastics that defines the modern leftist's irrationality.  No matter what fictional situation concerning a fictional race a book or RPG sets up, it cannot make you racist towards a real human population.

Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.

Where is your critic of racism when Jesus was fighting against the Jewish moneylenders corrupting his church?

Its because he was a European coloniser, right?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 05:58:53 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 31, 2021, 05:43:26 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:35:44 AM
Anyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire.

So what if racists implant dog-whistles in their fiction?  The only people who will notice are other racists.  Everyone else will just read the fiction.  If you can hear the whistle, you're the dog.

Writers have always used caricature in satire since time immemorial (it's kind of required), and I don't see why any particular subject of caricature is off limits.  Did Chaucer use class, age, or occupation as the basis for his satire? (Yes)  Did he use race? (Yes.  The Miller is Irish and the Merchant Jewish)  Should we cancel Chaucer now?  Caricature is based on stereotypes, and stereotypes that don't fit a person's experiences will be rejected by them, even as caricature.   

And people can't "accidentally internalize" racist messages when that subject is a fictional race.  They can't when it is a real race, either, but that's not the point here.  You cannot create a "racist" via a fictional creation.  Racism occurs when a person believes that one group of people is superior to another group of people just because of their race.  That isn't "accidental."  This argument is the kind of mental gymnastics that defines the modern leftist's irrationality.  No matter what fictional situation concerning a fictional race a book or RPG sets up, it cannot make you racist towards a real human population.

Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.

You get it now.  Good job.  Making fictional characters greedy and money-obsessed does not make them stand-ins for Jews.  Only a racist would say that, because the racist assumes those qualities are exclusive to Jews.  Normal people recognize that any individual can have those characteristics, regardless of race.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 05:58:53 PM
Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.

Yes.

Because with words; intent and context matter.

Racists use the ideas of evolutionary science to promote their racist ideals.

So that must mean that from now on anyone discussing human evolution using the same scientific terms that a racist happened to also have used is a racist?

Racists use art in their racist propaganda.

So that must mean that from now on that anyone drawing in the same artistic style that racists have used is a racist?

Fuck off!


Another example:

From Oxford Languages:
Orc /ôrk/
Late 16th century (denoting an ogre): perhaps from Latin orcus 'hell' or Italian orco 'demon, monster', influenced by obsolete orc 'ferocious sea creature' and by Old English orcneas 'monsters'. The current sense is due to the use of the word in Tolkien's fantasy adventures.

The evil /bad /other depictions of various monsters and creatures in myth and folk lore is representative of corruption, faithlessness, giving in to temptation, and the fear of allowing yourself to be wholly corrupted by wickedness and sin.

Orc = bad/evil thing we must fight, that is representative of defeating the bad/evil within ourselves.

Yes, Racists have used language traditionally used to describe bad things, and applied it to people in their worldview that they think are bad.

Racists gonna' racist...

If you think that orcs = black people; that means you are straight-up agreeing with the racists worldview of black people.

So next time you read a depiction of an Orc, goblin, troll, or dwarf, and you think it has Racist overtones...  If you want to find the nearest racist that thinks the same way you do about what you just read; I recommend a look in the mirror.


Pundit explained all this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K30zFJOV3eM

Quote from: yancy on July 30, 2021, 04:00:53 AMThat's one of the worst paragraphs he ever wrote

I re-visited most of his stories about 5 years ago, and I was pleasantly surprised at how well almost all of them have held up, but that shit about the Elder Things being a bunch of brave pioneers with tentacles had me begging for the Shoggoth to show up and clean house.

Think what the character was expressing was respect for fellow explorers and scientists. You might not like em, they might be rivals or foes even. But sometimes you can step back and appreciate what they have accomplished.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 31, 2021, 11:06:20 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 05:58:53 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 31, 2021, 05:43:26 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:35:44 AM
Anyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire.

So what if racists implant dog-whistles in their fiction?  The only people who will notice are other racists.  Everyone else will just read the fiction.  If you can hear the whistle, you're the dog.

Writers have always used caricature in satire since time immemorial (it's kind of required), and I don't see why any particular subject of caricature is off limits.  Did Chaucer use class, age, or occupation as the basis for his satire? (Yes)  Did he use race? (Yes.  The Miller is Irish and the Merchant Jewish)  Should we cancel Chaucer now?  Caricature is based on stereotypes, and stereotypes that don't fit a person's experiences will be rejected by them, even as caricature.   

And people can't "accidentally internalize" racist messages when that subject is a fictional race.  They can't when it is a real race, either, but that's not the point here.  You cannot create a "racist" via a fictional creation.  Racism occurs when a person believes that one group of people is superior to another group of people just because of their race.  That isn't "accidental."  This argument is the kind of mental gymnastics that defines the modern leftist's irrationality.  No matter what fictional situation concerning a fictional race a book or RPG sets up, it cannot make you racist towards a real human population.

Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.

You get it now.  Good job.  Making fictional characters greedy and money-obsessed does not make them stand-ins for Jews.  Only a racist would say that, because the racist assumes those qualities are exclusive to Jews.  Normal people recognize that any individual can have those characteristics, regardless of race.

I cannot agree more. And if you give them big noses, a secret language, their own isolated subculture, a penchant for kidnapping and eating children from outside their culture, evil schemes to corrupt the surrounding societies that including tricking the dominant ethnic group into marrying their disguised members... well, those are all hallmarks of antisemitic caricature/propaganda but as soon as you apply those traits to a fictional species then it ceases to be caricature because it's fiction. If any snowflake complains that you're writing thinly veiled antisemitic caricature and it ruins their escapism, well fuck them because they're racists. And snowflakes.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 01, 2021, 05:20:32 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 05:58:53 PM
Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.

Yes.

Because with words; intent and context matter.

Racists use the ideas of evolutionary science to promote their racist ideals.

So that must mean that from now on anyone discussing human evolution using the same scientific terms that a racist happened to also have used is a racist?

Racists use art in their racist propaganda.

So that must mean that from now on that anyone drawing in the same artistic style that racists have used is a racist?

Fuck off!


Another example:

From Oxford Languages:
Orc /ôrk/
Late 16th century (denoting an ogre): perhaps from Latin orcus 'hell' or Italian orco 'demon, monster', influenced by obsolete orc 'ferocious sea creature' and by Old English orcneas 'monsters'. The current sense is due to the use of the word in Tolkien's fantasy adventures.

The evil /bad /other depictions of various monsters and creatures in myth and folk lore is representative of corruption, faithlessness, giving in to temptation, and the fear of allowing yourself to be wholly corrupted by wickedness and sin.

Orc = bad/evil thing we must fight, that is representative of defeating the bad/evil within ourselves.

Yes, Racists have used language traditionally used to describe bad things, and applied it to people in their worldview that they think are bad.

Racists gonna' racist...

If you think that orcs = black people; that means you are straight-up agreeing with the racists worldview of black people.

So next time you read a depiction of an Orc, goblin, troll, or dwarf, and you think it has Racist overtones...  If you want to find the nearest racist that thinks the same way you do about what you just read; I recommend a look in the mirror.


Pundit explained all this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K30zFJOV3eM

Yep. If you copy racist propaganda verbatim but apply it to a fictional species, then it's no longer racist because you can't be racist against fiction. Oh, some thin-skinned snowflakes are complaining that it ruins their escapism? Well, fuck them they're the real racists.

After all, only an extremely delusional racist would write an article complaining that H.R. Giger's penis-headed nightmares (and the Predator) are anti-black racist caricature. https://theconversation.com/amp/how-hollywoods-alien-and-predator-movies-reinforce-anti-black-racism-127088

And since that comparison is so obviously insane (particularly if you read the Predator expanded universe where they have a complex civilization that descended from gladiator slaves who rightfully overthrew their wicked masters, which sounds like something an SJW would write), it discredits absolutely everything else these snowflakes say.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
And if you give them big noses, a secret language, their own isolated subculture, a penchant for kidnapping and eating children from outside their culture, evil schemes to corrupt the surrounding societies that including tricking the dominant ethnic group into marrying their disguised members...

A example of your description from fiction would be what?  Seems you are setting up a dramatic situation that doesn't exist. 

BTW, when does fiction deal in "races"?  It deals in characters.  The flying whatever from the first Star Wars prequel (that was accused of being anti-semitic) was not a "race."  It was an individual character.  Or do you believe that every individual character in a movie is the embodiment of their entire race.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
I cannot agree more. And if you give them big noses, a secret language, their own isolated subculture, a penchant for kidnapping and eating children from outside their culture, evil schemes to corrupt the surrounding societies that including tricking the dominant ethnic group into marrying their disguised members... well, those are all hallmarks of antisemitic caricature/propaganda but as soon as you apply those traits to a fictional species then it ceases to be caricature because it's fiction. If any snowflake complains that you're writing thinly veiled antisemitic caricature and it ruins their escapism, well fuck them because they're racists. And snowflakes.

Yikes.  I did not realize that Changlings were also stand ins for Jews.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
After all, only an extremely delusional racist would write an article complaining that H.R. Giger's penis-headed nightmares (and the Predator) are anti-black racist caricature. https://theconversation.com/amp/how-hollywoods-alien-and-predator-movies-reinforce-anti-black-racism-127088

"We are dealing with a culture of domination. It is a culture that thrives on the sexualized demonization of Black people. Two examples of this are Ridley Scott's Alien, which comports with the trope of Black women as alien breeders [that John Hurt was a black woman is the most stunning revelation in recent times] and Predator, written by brothers Jim and John Thomas, that riffs on images of Black men as dreadlocked, violent and superhuman."

I wonder if we shouldn't start with not even considering pieces written by people who clearly lost their grip with reality.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AMAnyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire.

I know this is a deep seated belief for you, but this sort of logic is untenable.

This means that if any sort of fiction (by intention or accident) has a connection to any sort of steryotype or negative image, then you have effectively demanded for its banning in the fictional space AT ALL.
Because what people see as a negative association and what deserves to be labelled as 'propaganda' is subjective. Your shackling (ey, I get to use that word too) what people can or can't create to constantly shifting and subjective interpretations. That is untenable and grants the loudest complainer (with no distinction between a power grab and the genuinly hurt) the most power.
Hurt feelings are a TERRIBLE metric to measure the permissability of creativity towards because there is no limit to buthurt.
For instance: why is it only RACIST propaganda that gets this sort of outrage. What if Im butthurt by the portayal of my profession or hobby? What makes racist propaganda special? Non-racist propaganda has murdered plenty of people as well. What is the logic that means a racialist caricature has to be banned by buthurt, but other kinds are OK? If the answer is that they should ALL be banned (or culturally pressured to not be allowed to exist) then your just gonna get everything banned. This is what fahrenheit 451 was all about.

The power of a fictional portrayal, is that it allows for association unintended by the author. Even as a racist (not particularly fond of my people) I found Lovecrafts stories resonating with me for feelings of isolation on my end.

Why is racism this ultimate sin?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM

Yep. If you copy racist propaganda verbatim but apply it to a fictional species, then it's no longer racist because you can't be racist against fiction. Oh, some thin-skinned snowflakes are complaining that it ruins their escapism? Well, fuck them they're the real racists.

Who said anything about copying anything verbatim?

You are having to come up with an increasing number of : "if", "but", dramatic strawman scenarios to prop up your critical theory based nonsense argument.

According to your critical theory nonsense:

If I describe a monsters in an RPG; they cannot have dark skin tones, and act in an evil and brutal manner.

Because the only possible explanation for me portraying my monsters that way is because what I must be  really saying is: 'my monster' = Black people.

Shocking!

Applying Critical Theory I can make any fictional depiction of a fantasy race look like an oppressed representation of a real world culture!

Behold the truth of the Forgotten Realms Drow:

Quote from: Ed Greenwood is a flaming white supremacist: on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
It is a well known Fact that The Drow are ruled by a benevolent Matriarchy.

Therefore by law, there is no such thing as Drow on Drow crime in Menzoberranzan.

While at times one may see an enlightened Priestess of Lolth discipline a cis-gendered male Drow; This is done to ensure that Drow society does not fall into a state of patriarchy and lawlessness. And is typical of the way that the progressive Drow Matriarchy ensures equality for all.

Outside cultures are constantly committing racist microagressions against Drow society because of their lack of cultural understanding; especially when they describe the method in which the various Great Drow Houses vie for the attention and favor of Lolth as war. In Drow society it is simply understood that Drow houses will from time to time engage in energetic play with each other for the favor of Lolth and greater social equity.

But the most problematic issue facing Drow society today is the very real threat that the Rangers and Right-Wing militias of the Surface world present to Drow lives.

When the Drow engage in Mostly Peaceful trading expeditions to the surface world, they are routinely shot dead For No Reason At All by the arrows of light-skinned Elven and Human Rangers.

The Rangers have proven to be such a threat that many Drow traders feel that they are barely able to breathe in the fresh surface world air before they are set upon by a Ranger trying to kill them just for trading in the wrong defenseless rich suburban village at the wrong time.

The surface world needs to recognize that Drow Lives Matter. They need to accept that in making a safe space for the Drow to live among them that the strength and vibrancy of Drow society will be added to their own.

Praise Lolth!  All Glory to the Queen of Spiders!

Damn...

You know what Boxcrayon... I take every thing I said back:  Drow are obviously a racist depiction of Black people!

You are 100% right! 

Every depiction of Goblins, Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Gnomes... hell, every depiction of fantasy creatures ever is obviously RACIST!!!

Oh NOES!!!

ROTFL...

Behold the magic of Critical Theory: anyone can make anything Racist.

Critical Race theory arguments like yours literally make their own reductio ad absurdum arguments against themselves.

Only thin-skinned snowflakes take critical theory based arguments seriously.

Someone needed to inform BoxCrayonTales that inserting the whole 48 Box of crayons in his ear was a bad idea. Either that or he sniffed way too much contact glue.

According to this racist EVERY depiction of a fictional race/species in all of fiction is a racist depiction of real world people because reasons.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 10:13:54 PMAccording to this racist EVERY depiction of a fictional race/species in all of fiction is a racist depiction of real world people because reasons.

Being fair to him: He goes at this from an angle of sensitivity to others. I don't see him as a guy arguing in bad faith about his beliefs.

However; I see this as a largely arbitrary worldview whos logical consequences are utterly untenable to maintain in a reasonable society. At times the solution is to ask folks to grow thicker skins, not demand the world to change.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 01, 2021, 10:44:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 10:13:54 PMAccording to this racist EVERY depiction of a fictional race/species in all of fiction is a racist depiction of real world people because reasons.

Being fair to him: He goes at this from an angle of sensitivity to others. I don't see him as a guy arguing in bad faith about his beliefs.

However; I see this as a largely arbitrary worldview whos logical consequences are utterly untenable to maintain in a reasonable society. At times the solution is to ask folks to grow thicker skins, not demand the world to change.

Honestly? Fuck the sensitivity of those "others". Who elected him to be the spokeperson? No one, he speaks his own hangups and it's nothing but confession by projection.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 01, 2021, 10:44:18 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 10:13:54 PMAccording to this racist EVERY depiction of a fictional race/species in all of fiction is a racist depiction of real world people because reasons.

Being fair to him: He goes at this from an angle of sensitivity to others. I don't see him as a guy arguing in bad faith about his beliefs.

However; I see this as a largely arbitrary worldview whos logical consequences are utterly untenable to maintain in a reasonable society. At times the solution is to ask folks to grow thicker skins, not demand the world to change.

He is the guy that wants to kill everyone.

But its not racist when you hate the whole of humanity.

Oh wait....

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 10:47:18 PM
Honestly? Fuck the sensitivity of those "others".

Agreed, but my principles are also about defending people I disagree with if I think they are not acting out of ill will.

In the modern day, I find him more a 'victim' of 'victim' politics, this sort of thing is drilled into kids heads by the millions. I am not assuming hangups or projection from him.