https://www.enworld.org/threads/hello-i-am-lawyer-with-a-psa-almost-everyone-is-wrong-about-the-ogl-and-srd-clearing-up-confusion.694192/

I'm thinking about multiple things as this all goes on. 

1.  Making D&D copycat games was always a risk.  The owners of D&D could pull this trick anytime.   The fact it took 23 years is what is amazing about this, but not that it eventually happened.  That being said, it still has a chance of not happening, but we'll see.

2.  If you want to write your own game, it might be best to make your own rules, even though we keep citing copyright law about how you cannot stop somebody making a game with the same dice rolling rules.  I would still want my own rules just to be sure.  Thats a hard thing to do, I know. 

3.  I'm not a fan of D&D style rules in the first place.  I look forward to more innovations to avoid those rules.

4.  WotC management isn't on your side.  Clearly.  When it comes time to make more money, all the OSR crowd got cut loose.  I'll remember that.  I expected this, but I'm aware it was ok for decades.  Until now. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2023, 09:26:45 AM
1.  Making D&D copycat games was always a risk.  The owners of D&D could pull this trick anytime.   The fact it took 23 years is what is amazing about this, but not that it eventually happened.  That being said, it still has a chance of not happening, but we'll see.

It's still questionable if they even can "pull this trick" to begin with.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2023, 09:26:45 AM2.  If you want to write your own game, it might be best to make your own rules, even though we keep citing copyright law about how you cannot stop somebody making a game with the same dice rolling rules.  I would still want my own rules just to be sure.  Thats a hard thing to do, I know. 

No, "you can't copyright rules" is very settled law. It's not an iffy thing.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2023, 09:26:45 AM3.  I'm not a fan of D&D style rules in the first place.  I look forward to more innovations to avoid those rules.

Okay, fine, but... a lot of people are.

And please. There's been a few people in this debacle lamenting a lack of options or innovation or something. There are new RPGs, both AAA and indie, coming out all the time. Whatever the fallout of this is, the hobby will survive. Most games will survive. Most games are still not and have never been OGL.

That's the one thing I think really needs to be stressed. There's a lot of panic right now, a lot of it is understandable... I get it, this sucks. It sucks royally. But at the end of the day, we, as a hobby, as a community, will get through this. WotC is big, but they aren't the hobby. They're just a big publisher in it.

Quote from: PencilBoy99 on January 10, 2023, 09:21:46 AM
https://www.enworld.org/threads/hello-i-am-lawyer-with-a-psa-almost-everyone-is-wrong-about-the-ogl-and-srd-clearing-up-confusion.694192/

Oh, look. Yet another "Hi, I'm a lawyer, you've all got it wrong" post.

Which way did this one go? Because they go both ways, and I frankly couldn't be arsed to read yet another one.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 10, 2023, 09:40:20 AM
Okay, fine, but... a lot of people are.

And please. There's been a few people in this debacle lamenting a lack of options or innovation or something. There are new RPGs, both AAA and indie, coming out all the time. Whatever the fallout of this is, the hobby will survive. Most games will survive. Most games are still not and have never been OGL.

That's the one thing I think really needs to be stressed. There's a lot of panic right now, a lot of it is understandable... I get it, this sucks. It sucks royally. But at the end of the day, we, as a hobby, as a community, will get through this. WotC is big, but they aren't the hobby. They're just a big publisher in it.

Yes.  The heart of the hobby in the "kind of like D&D if you squint at it hard" part of the Venn diagrams that make up games is still going to be there.  The same way that a lot of online games are "kind of like World of Warcraft".  There's still going to be rules with armor making you harder to hit, maybe not called "Armor Class".  There are still going to be games with escalating hit points.  There are still going to be games that are just fine with humans, elves, and dwarves being the big three.  There are especially going to be games with d20+Modifier versus Target Number, because for some games that's a good fit. 

And of course, as always, there will continue to be games scattered all over the Venn diagrams, well away from that center section.

Will we see some changes?  Sure, at the margins.  I imagine that a lot of the OSR will do less drastic versions of what I'm doing.  I was already making a game that was always willing to sacrifice compatibility with the D&D to make it work the way I want.  Being somewhat compatible was maybe my third or fourth priority.  So now I'll take out a handful of things that I only kept in the first place for that compatibility, because now it isn't a priority at all. Heck, I even kept a few things in as a homage to the original.  Those are coming out now.

Compatibility is over-rated, anyway.  Anyone with a little experience in multiple systems can convert monsters, magic, etc. from one system to another, easy.  The GM just has to get over the hangup of thinking in terms of math and mechanics and instead focus on what the monster concept represents.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 10, 2023, 09:40:20 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2023, 09:26:45 AM
1.  Making D&D copycat games was always a risk.  The owners of D&D could pull this trick anytime.   The fact it took 23 years is what is amazing about this, but not that it eventually happened.  That being said, it still has a chance of not happening, but we'll see.

It's still questionable if they even can "pull this trick" to begin with.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2023, 09:26:45 AM2.  If you want to write your own game, it might be best to make your own rules, even though we keep citing copyright law about how you cannot stop somebody making a game with the same dice rolling rules.  I would still want my own rules just to be sure.  Thats a hard thing to do, I know. 

No, "you can't copyright rules" is very settled law. It's not an iffy thing.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 10, 2023, 09:26:45 AM3.  I'm not a fan of D&D style rules in the first place.  I look forward to more innovations to avoid those rules.

Okay, fine, but... a lot of people are.

And please. There's been a few people in this debacle lamenting a lack of options or innovation or something. There are new RPGs, both AAA and indie, coming out all the time. Whatever the fallout of this is, the hobby will survive. Most games will survive. Most games are still not and have never been OGL.

That's the one thing I think really needs to be stressed. There's a lot of panic right now, a lot of it is understandable... I get it, this sucks. It sucks royally. But at the end of the day, we, as a hobby, as a community, will get through this. WotC is big, but they aren't the hobby. They're just a big publisher in it.

I would still distance myself from any existing game system.  It just causes trouble. 

That being said, there are not many systems that you could think of that haven't already been tried. 

But, D&D is still half the hobby by itself.  A lot of people won't look at your stuff if it's in another game system's format

As the attributes are currently described and named, Spirit magic ("Sorcery") should use Awareness, Clerical magic should use "Will". Will needs a name more reflective of the attribute.

Naming the Attribute Knowledge kinda makes it seem Awareness should be involved in spotting illusions.

I realize the point isn't to change d20 mechanics, and I'm not suggesting you change them, just suggesting you use different terminology, so expectations (set by the name) match the mechanics.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 01:06:32 PM
I've been thinking about a public domain game that would essentially serve to define the replacement terms so everyone can use them without fear.  While there wouldn't be a Strength = Physique type segment and even the xdy dice notation and terms like Dungeon Master and Player Character would be avoided the rules would mainly exist to describe the role of the terms in the game rather than to convince people to change the rules they're using.

To my mind the whole document should be under a dozen pages.  Here's where it's at so far:

The Path Forward
It seems the time has come for the community to break from the current popular proprietary game system due to conniving and skullduggery on the part of the corporate owners. One might note they are making all the worst errors of the second and fourth editions of the game and it seems the rule about odd numbered releases being superior will hold true. It seems that in order to allow for the continued publication by third parties a standard reworking of terminology may be in order to allow compatibility and communication between parties without shackling them to unacceptable terms.

While the terminology has been stated in terms of a rules document the core intent is not mechanical but indicative of the role the terms play in the game.

Dice Notation
In the interest of clarity and avoiding future issues dice are written as the range of results. For example a 1 - 20 indicates the roll of a twenty-sided die. To avoid confusion modifiers will always be written as a modifier. For example 2 - 20 + 2 would indicate that two ten-sided dice ar rolled and added with two points being added to that total. This seems clearer than writing 4 - 22 while avoiding the old, proprietary notation.

Mettle
A general value representing overall skill is used to modify success rolls and active resistance. The cost of this general modifier is one thousand for the first and doubles for each stage thereafter. A stage of mettle is also applied to the character's Injury Tolerance dice pool.

Characteristics
The characteristics are rated on a scale where ten is average and twenty is the absolute, once in a generation among billions maximum of human capacity. A number of options exist for resolving actions.

The whole value is used as a passive modifier.
The value minus ten plus a twenty sided die (1-20 + rating - 10) is compared to a passive resisting characteristic or to a static difficulty rating.
Active resistance is determined by rolling a twenty-sided die and adding the resisting rating minus ten.

Physique measures physical fitness and muscular development. It is used to resist slams, shoves, and wrestling.

Coordination measures coordination, balance, and reflexes. It is used to avoid blows and missiles.

Endurance measures health, grit, and stamina. It is used to resist poisons and diseases.

Knowledge measures education, experience, and genuine intelligence. It is used to discover illusions, resist manipulation. Lore magic uses Knowledge to determine the availability and power of spells.

Awareness measures sensory acuity but particularly sight and hearing. It is used to detect hidden doors, traps, and ambushes. Sacred magic uses Perception to determine the availability and power of spells.

Will measures attractiveness, confidence, and social skills it is used to resist intimidation and to attract and lead followers. Spirt magic uses Will to determine the availability and power of spells.

Type
While more evocative terms are possible within a given setting each character is assigned a type that describes their role in the game. The character type determines which skills they can apply their Mettle to as a modifier to tasks and actions.

Combatant
Combatants can apply their Mettle as a modifier to use any weapon. They can wear all armour. And receive two general skills to reflect their background. Injury Tolerance Endurance + 1-10 per point of Mettle.

Specialist
Specialists can apply their Mettle + 4 as a modifier to one specific skill. They receive two general skills to reflect their background. They can use light and medium armour but cannot use their Mettle to weild specialist weapons. Injury Tolerance Endurance + 1 - 8 per point of Mettle.

Generalist
A generalist can use light and medium armour but cannot use their Mettle to weild specialist weapons. Generalists can learn one type of magic. They receive five general skills, two of which reflect their background and three which reflect their training. Endurance + 1 - 8 per point of Mettle.

Spell Caster
Dedicated spell casters can only use the simplest weapons and no armour. As a result they learn four more spells from their chosen school and can cast two more spells each day. Injury Tolerance Endurance + 1 - 6 per point of mettle

General Skills
The following list of skills is not comprehensive. The absence of a skill does not forbid the attempt, instead, removing the Mettle bonus from the roll to succeed. The characteristic suggested in parentheses may be altered to reflect the use the skill is being put to, such as using Knowledge to know facts about Boating as opposed to simply rowing the boat.

Boating (Physique)
Carpentry (Physique)
Climbing (Coordination)
Driving (Awareness)
Engineering (Knowledge)
Foraging (Awareness)
Languages (Knowledge)
Masonry (Physique)
Sailing (Agility)
Smith (Physique)
Swimming (Endurance)
Pick Locks & Traps (Coordination)
Riding (Coordination)
Sneak (Coordination)
Tracking (Awareness)
Watch (Awareness)

Magic
Fantasy, by definition defies the physical laws of science. Wonders and wonder workers abound. There are three broad ways in which spell casters work their magic. Spirit magic draws directly on the spirit and life force of the magician. Sacred magic calls upon the gods for power while slowly feeding them on the magician's spirit and life force. Lore based magic is the broadest field drawing upon written knowledge and recorded methods which have been proven to work. A lore based spell caster's life is caught up in the research and study but some take the more direct approach, seeking out lost grimoires and scrolls. Lore based spell casters keep books of spells from which they can select a number to prepare and use in the course of their adventures.

Resistance Target = Characteristic + Mettle
Spells Known = Characteristic - 10
Spells Per Day = Characteristic - 10

Lore Based Magic
Knowledge
Sacred Magic
Perception
Spirit Magic
Will

Combat
Ambush and Surprise
If both sides are exploring or otherwise moving blindly there is chance one or both parties is surprised. Roll a twenty sided die for each side applying the worst Awareness modifier. The lowest Mettle in Sneaking or watching is applied for each group. If the total is less than 20 they are unaware of the other group. If the groups are moving in a large area such as a wilderness or maze of twisting passages and they are both unaware roll a six-sided die. If the result is three or less they never meet. If both sides are aware of each other each can choose whether to avoid or encounter the other. If both choose to encounter they can choose to parley or attack. If one side is aware of the other they can choose whether to avoid or encounter the other party. If one side wants to avoid and the other wants to avoid. A pursuit takes place with speed, encounter distance, and other such factors determining the results. A group on foot in open ground being pursued by horsemen isn't likely to escape.

Sequence
To keep combat simple and clear, the sides take alternating turns. It is possible to attack, move and attack, defend, and move.

Normal movement is 30 feet per turn full movement without an action or attack is 60 feet. Quadrupeds double these rates but other relationships might be arranged. A lumbering creature might have a basic movement rate of 30 feet and a full run of 120 feet and heaven help you if you're in its way.

Attacks are resolved by rolling a twenty-sided die and adding the attacker's Characteristic minus ten and Mettle if appropriate if the total is greater than the target's Coordination plus Armour the attack hits and causes damage.

Melee weapons require the target must be within the movement range of the attacker. If the attacker needs to move and the target has a longer weapon the target gets a free attack first. If a combatant tries to flee from the fighting their foe also gets to make a free attack.

Missile weapons require the target to be within the range of the weapon. If the target is farther than half that range the attack is made with a -4 modifier. If the shooter moves there is an additional - 4 modifier.

Damage is applied to the combatant's Injury Total. When this exceeds their Injury Tolerance they are incapacitated and out of the fighting until healed. If the Injury Total exceed their Injury Tolerance by more than their Endurance, they are dead.

Armour
Light Armour 2
Medium Armour 4
Heavy Armour 6
Shield +2

Weapons
Light Weapons 1 - 6 Damage
Medium Weapons 1 - 8 Damage
Heavy Weapons 1 - 10 Damage
Thrown 90 feet
Slings, Short Bows 180 feet
Crossbows, Long Bows 360 feet

Missile Weapons + Coordination -10
Melee Weapons + Physique -10
Specialist Weapons Flails, Lances, Longbows, Polearms

Morale
If a side loses half of its combatants they must check morale. Roll a twenty-sided die and add their leader's Will -10 and Mettle if they are skilled in Leadership. If the total is greater than 20 they stand their ground. If it is lower they flee or surrender as circumstances allow.

Creatures
The size of a creature determines its Injury Tolerance but not necessarily its Mettle. The size of the creature increases the chance to hit it but also increases its size, essentially cancelling out this factor.

Rat 1- 4
Dog 1 - 6
Human 1- 8
Horse 1 - 10
Elephant 1 - 12

Honestly, to my mind I'd drop the roll and just go with, 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 to make sure huge creatures are still pretty tough and to make full figure casualty removal a thing.  But for the declared purpose of these rules equating mettle to a die type seems necessary.

Also, this is at an early stage and I'm open to suggestions.  I think if something isn't gotten out there we'll wind up with a proliferation of standards that amounts to everyone doing their own thing with no compatible core so, I'm suggesting a very tight, low level core that standardizes terminology and lets people implement their own ideas on top of it.  At present I feel the 1 - 20 + Characteristic + Mettle Stage - 10  (not the best term for it I know) necessitates an opposed role or division by two to avoid running out of the mechanical range.  But by not using indiviual calculations and thus not cluttering the character sheet authors can use whatever modifier arrangement they prefer in their own work without producing incompatible numbers in print.

The stat block is then:

Mettle Stage:
Race:
Type:

Awareness #
Coordination #
Endurance #
Knowledge #
Physique #
Will #

Skills:
Equipment

And you shouldn't need any more numbers than Mettle, Armour, Weapon Damage, and Characteristic scores.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig on January 10, 2023, 01:36:26 PM
As the attributes are currently described and named, Spirit magic ("Sorcery") should use Awareness, Clerical magic should use "Will". Will needs a name more reflective of the attribute.

Naming the Attribute Knowledge kinda makes it seem Awareness should be involved in spotting illusions.

I realize the point isn't to change d20 mechanics, and I'm not suggesting you change them, just suggesting you use different terminology, so expectations (set by the name) match the mechanics.

In my own renaming Wisdom is the one that's giving me trouble, I haven't been able to find the right word to use yet, but I will.

My stuff will be put under CC By SA except for the name, brand, art and the like, and I will include a note that Game Mechanics CAN'T be copyright and any attempt to patent them at this point is moot given the time they have been in use by pretty much everybody.

Edited to add:

Sagacity (synonym of Wisdom understood as insight): the ability to understand inner qualities or relationships,

I don't know if this was mentioned upthread - but let's also not forget that the the Judge and the Court itself (whether that's in King County as WotC is demanding such litigation will take place) will know little or nothing about the nuances and differences between "mechanics" and "expression of mechanics" like us gaming nerds.

It will be trivially easy for WotC Lawyers to gin up whatever complexities needed to justify the position that the expression is sufficiently different from the mechanic itself. Of course I'm happy to see the OSR gearing up for war.

The damage is already done, even if its effects haven't been fully felt yet. No quarter!

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 02:24:07 PM
Well, I expect anyone's list is as good or better than mine if everyone will agree to stick with it.  TSR sued over Strength and lost so it's probably safe but the point is to step away completely even changing terms like Dungeon Master and Non Player Character just to be on the safe side.

As I noted I went with a hit dice system specifically because the core should still be the original game in form and function, not because I like it.

You don't want to back away too much since that reinforces WotC's claim to certain terms. If everyone changed "Strength" to Might or Physique, etc., then WotC can dig their grubby little fingers in and claim exclusive rights to "Strength." You want to have as many terms as possible slip into the Public Domain through common usage (like what happened with "elevator").

"Dungeon Master" is already a registered trademark so you can't touch it, but "player character, " PC, NPC, etc. are common parlance and should be used frequently and liberally across many different systems. Don't give WotC any more ammunition than they already have.

Quote from: tenbones on January 10, 2023, 02:18:44 PM
I don't know if this was mentioned upthread - but let's also not forget that the the Judge and the Court itself (whether that's in King County as WotC is demanding such litigation will take place) will know little or nothing about the nuances and differences between "mechanics" and "expression of mechanics" like us gaming nerds.

Not to mention that any judge living in King County will likely be infected with the Seattle Virus, so Hasbro/WotC just needs to poison the well with accusations of istophobia.

QuoteIt will be trivially easy for WotC Lawyers to gin up whatever complexities needed to justify the position that the expression is sufficiently different from the mechanic itself. Of course I'm happy to see the OSR gearing up for war.

The damage is already done, even if its effects haven't been fully felt yet. No quarter!

Like I said above, don't back off too much. Just enough to make your game sufficiently different enough. We WANT to have crossover for some terms since that weakens WotC's claim over them.

Quote from: tenbones on January 10, 2023, 02:18:44 PM
I don't know if this was mentioned upthread - but let's also not forget that the the Judge and the Court itself (whether that's in King County as WotC is demanding such litigation will take place) will know little or nothing about the nuances and differences between "mechanics" and "expression of mechanics" like us gaming nerds.

They can't sue you under OGL 1.1's choice of jurisdiction clause if you never agreed to OGL 1.1!

No such clause in OGL 1.0.

Quote from: Effete on January 10, 2023, 02:48:36 PM

You don't want to back away too much since that reinforces WotC's claim to certain terms. If everyone changed "Strength" to Might or Physique, etc., then WotC can dig their grubby little fingers in and claim exclusive rights to "Strength." You want to have as many terms as possible slip into the Public Domain through common usage (like what happened with "elevator").

"Dungeon Master" is already a registered trademark so you can't touch it, but "player character, " PC, NPC, etc. are common parlance and should be used frequently and liberally across many different systems. Don't give WotC any more ammunition than they already have.

Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, and Charisma have been used by RuneQuest and Tunnels & Trolls since the 70s without challenge.
Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence were used by Traveller since the 70s as well.

All have additional attributes as well, but the 5 seem okay.

Quote from: Effete on January 10, 2023, 02:48:36 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 02:24:07 PM
Well, I expect anyone's list is as good or better than mine if everyone will agree to stick with it.  TSR sued over Strength and lost so it's probably safe but the point is to step away completely even changing terms like Dungeon Master and Non Player Character just to be on the safe side.

As I noted I went with a hit dice system specifically because the core should still be the original game in form and function, not because I like it.

You don't want to back away too much since that reinforces WotC's claim to certain terms. If everyone changed "Strength" to Might or Physique, etc., then WotC can dig their grubby little fingers in and claim exclusive rights to "Strength." You want to have as many terms as possible slip into the Public Domain through common usage (like what happened with "elevator").

"Dungeon Master" is already a registered trademark so you can't touch it, but "player character, " PC, NPC, etc. are common parlance and should be used frequently and liberally across many different systems. Don't give WotC any more ammunition than they already have.

I bolded this because it's important and correct. Terms like hit points, armor class, strength, dexterity, etc. are common terms used not only in TTRPGs, but in PC/Console RPGs as well. Also the roots of many of those terms are in wargames from even father back.

You can't copyright the word "strength", or say it's part of the IP of D&D.

Even game mechanics and procedures cannot be copyrighted. US courts ruled on this a long time ago.

So stop renaming everything, people. You look scared and foolish.

Quote from: blackstone on January 10, 2023, 03:04:04 PM
I bolded this because it's important and correct. Terms like hit points, armor class, strength, dexterity, etc. are common terms used not only in TTRPGs, but in PC/Console RPGs as well. Also the roots of many of those terms are in wargames from even father back.

You can't copyright the word "strength", or say it's part of the IP of D&D.

Even game mechanics and procedures cannot be copyrighted. US courts ruled on this a long time ago.

So stop renaming everything, people. You look scared and foolish.

I bolded this because it's important and correct.