Hell, I don't know if any of them will go away.

It seems to me that this big 1.1 fiasco are going to start making games that have nothing to do with D&D style rules, which are pretty much all of the OSR group of games.

I know you cannot copyright the game rules.  So, from what I can tell all you need to do is release a game with six "Attribute" scores, Might, Agility, Health, IQ, Spirit, and Attractiveness, and you play the game using a 1D20 to try and roll equal or more than the enemy Armor Category (AC).

Stuff like that is what we can expect?

Boy, am I glad I never got into D&D specifically.  I'm still a Palladium guy, and now rules lite stuff that have damn near nothing to do with Hasbro.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 08, 2023, 12:54:54 PM
Hell, I don't know if any of them will go away.

It seems to me that this big 1.1 fiasco are going to start making games that have nothing to do with D&D style rules, which are pretty much all of the OSR group of games.

I know you cannot copyright the game rules.  So, from what I can tell all you need to do is release a game with six "Attribute" scores, Might, Agility, Health, IQ, Spirit, and Attractiveness, and you play the game using a 1D20 to try and roll equal or more than the enemy Armor Category (AC).

Stuff like that is what we can expect?

Boy, am I glad I never got into D&D specifically.  I'm still a Palladium guy, and now rules lite stuff that have damn near nothing to do with Hasbro.

The problem they'll have (and why I'm rewritting stuff right now) is not the rules but the IP from D&D they might have included.

So you can count on all of the fantasy games to have to :

a) Drop all said IP and in the meantime suspend ALL sales.

b) Find the funds to fight WotC/Hasbro in court and this includes getting a court to dictate you can keep selling or suspending ALL sales until the matter is settled.

Because they ALL use D&D IP, with the exception of L&D and Arrows from Indra and maybe LotFP (Can't remember right now) and any other that has exactly ZERO D&D IP on it.

I've been thinking about a public domain game that would essentially serve to define the replacement terms so everyone can use them without fear.  While there wouldn't be a Strength = Physique type segment and even the xdy dice notation and terms like Dungeon Master and Player Character would be avoided the rules would mainly exist to describe the role of the terms in the game rather than to convince people to change the rules they're using.

To my mind the whole document should be under a dozen pages.  Here's where it's at so far:

The Path Forward
It seems the time has come for the community to break from the current popular proprietary game system due to conniving and skullduggery on the part of the corporate owners. One might note they are making all the worst errors of the second and fourth editions of the game and it seems the rule about odd numbered releases being superior will hold true. It seems that in order to allow for the continued publication by third parties a standard reworking of terminology may be in order to allow compatibility and communication between parties without shackling them to unacceptable terms.

While the terminology has been stated in terms of a rules document the core intent is not mechanical but indicative of the role the terms play in the game.

Dice Notation
In the interest of clarity and avoiding future issues dice are written as the range of results. For example a 1 - 20 indicates the roll of a twenty-sided die. To avoid confusion modifiers will always be written as a modifier. For example 2 - 20 + 2 would indicate that two ten-sided dice ar rolled and added with two points being added to that total. This seems clearer than writing 4 - 22 while avoiding the old, proprietary notation.

Mettle
A general value representing overall skill is used to modify success rolls and active resistance. The cost of this general modifier is one thousand for the first and doubles for each stage thereafter. A stage of mettle is also applied to the character's Injury Tolerance dice pool.

Characteristics
The characteristics are rated on a scale where ten is average and twenty is the absolute, once in a generation among billions maximum of human capacity. A number of options exist for resolving actions.

The whole value is used as a passive modifier.
The value minus ten plus a twenty sided die (1-20 + rating - 10) is compared to a passive resisting characteristic or to a static difficulty rating.
Active resistance is determined by rolling a twenty-sided die and adding the resisting rating minus ten.

Physique measures physical fitness and muscular development. It is used to resist slams, shoves, and wrestling.

Coordination measures coordination, balance, and reflexes. It is used to avoid blows and missiles.

Endurance measures health, grit, and stamina. It is used to resist poisons and diseases.

Knowledge measures education, experience, and genuine intelligence. It is used to discover illusions, resist manipulation. Lore magic uses Knowledge to determine the availability and power of spells.

Awareness measures sensory acuity but particularly sight and hearing. It is used to detect hidden doors, traps, and ambushes. Sacred magic uses Perception to determine the availability and power of spells.

Will measures attractiveness, confidence, and social skills it is used to resist intimidation and to attract and lead followers. Spirt magic uses Will to determine the availability and power of spells.

Type
While more evocative terms are possible within a given setting each character is assigned a type that describes their role in the game. The character type determines which skills they can apply their Mettle to as a modifier to tasks and actions.

Combatant
Combatants can apply their Mettle as a modifier to use any weapon. They can wear all armour. And receive two general skills to reflect their background. Injury Tolerance Endurance + 1-10 per point of Mettle.

Specialist
Specialists can apply their Mettle + 4 as a modifier to one specific skill. They receive two general skills to reflect their background. They can use light and medium armour but cannot use their Mettle to weild specialist weapons. Injury Tolerance Endurance + 1 - 8 per point of Mettle.

Generalist
A generalist can use light and medium armour but cannot use their Mettle to weild specialist weapons. Generalists can learn one type of magic. They receive five general skills, two of which reflect their background and three which reflect their training. Endurance + 1 - 8 per point of Mettle.

Spell Caster
Dedicated spell casters can only use the simplest weapons and no armour. As a result they learn four more spells from their chosen school and can cast two more spells each day. Injury Tolerance Endurance + 1 - 6 per point of mettle

General Skills
The following list of skills is not comprehensive. The absence of a skill does not forbid the attempt, instead, removing the Mettle bonus from the roll to succeed. The characteristic suggested in parentheses may be altered to reflect the use the skill is being put to, such as using Knowledge to know facts about Boating as opposed to simply rowing the boat.

Boating (Physique)
Carpentry (Physique)
Climbing (Coordination)
Driving (Awareness)
Engineering (Knowledge)
Foraging (Awareness)
Languages (Knowledge)
Masonry (Physique)
Sailing (Agility)
Smith (Physique)
Swimming (Endurance)
Pick Locks & Traps (Coordination)
Riding (Coordination)
Sneak (Coordination)
Tracking (Awareness)
Watch (Awareness)

Magic
Fantasy, by definition defies the physical laws of science. Wonders and wonder workers abound. There are three broad ways in which spell casters work their magic. Spirit magic draws directly on the spirit and life force of the magician. Sacred magic calls upon the gods for power while slowly feeding them on the magician's spirit and life force. Lore based magic is the broadest field drawing upon written knowledge and recorded methods which have been proven to work. A lore based spell caster's life is caught up in the research and study but some take the more direct approach, seeking out lost grimoires and scrolls. Lore based spell casters keep books of spells from which they can select a number to prepare and use in the course of their adventures.

Resistance Target = Characteristic + Mettle
Spells Known = Characteristic - 10
Spells Per Day = Characteristic - 10

Lore Based Magic
Knowledge
Sacred Magic
Perception
Spirit Magic
Will

Combat
Ambush and Surprise
If both sides are exploring or otherwise moving blindly there is chance one or both parties is surprised. Roll a twenty sided die for each side applying the worst Awareness modifier. The lowest Mettle in Sneaking or watching is applied for each group. If the total is less than 20 they are unaware of the other group. If the groups are moving in a large area such as a wilderness or maze of twisting passages and they are both unaware roll a six-sided die. If the result is three or less they never meet. If both sides are aware of each other each can choose whether to avoid or encounter the other. If both choose to encounter they can choose to parley or attack. If one side is aware of the other they can choose whether to avoid or encounter the other party. If one side wants to avoid and the other wants to avoid. A pursuit takes place with speed, encounter distance, and other such factors determining the results. A group on foot in open ground being pursued by horsemen isn't likely to escape.

Sequence
To keep combat simple and clear, the sides take alternating turns. It is possible to attack, move and attack, defend, and move.

Normal movement is 30 feet per turn full movement without an action or attack is 60 feet. Quadrupeds double these rates but other relationships might be arranged. A lumbering creature might have a basic movement rate of 30 feet and a full run of 120 feet and heaven help you if you're in its way.

Attacks are resolved by rolling a twenty-sided die and adding the attacker's Characteristic minus ten and Mettle if appropriate if the total is greater than the target's Coordination plus Armour the attack hits and causes damage.

Melee weapons require the target must be within the movement range of the attacker. If the attacker needs to move and the target has a longer weapon the target gets a free attack first. If a combatant tries to flee from the fighting their foe also gets to make a free attack.

Missile weapons require the target to be within the range of the weapon. If the target is farther than half that range the attack is made with a -4 modifier. If the shooter moves there is an additional - 4 modifier.

Damage is applied to the combatant's Injury Total. When this exceeds their Injury Tolerance they are incapacitated and out of the fighting until healed. If the Injury Total exceed their Injury Tolerance by more than their Endurance, they are dead.

Armour
Light Armour 2
Medium Armour 4
Heavy Armour 6
Shield +2

Weapons
Light Weapons 1 - 6 Damage
Medium Weapons 1 - 8 Damage
Heavy Weapons 1 - 10 Damage
Thrown 90 feet
Slings, Short Bows 180 feet
Crossbows, Long Bows 360 feet

Missile Weapons + Coordination -10
Melee Weapons + Physique -10
Specialist Weapons Flails, Lances, Longbows, Polearms

Morale
If a side loses half of its combatants they must check morale. Roll a twenty-sided die and add their leader's Will -10 and Mettle if they are skilled in Leadership. If the total is greater than 20 they stand their ground. If it is lower they flee or surrender as circumstances allow.

Creatures
The size of a creature determines its Injury Tolerance but not necessarily its Mettle. The size of the creature increases the chance to hit it but also increases its size, essentially cancelling out this factor.

Rat 1- 4
Dog 1 - 6
Human 1- 8
Horse 1 - 10
Elephant 1 - 12

Honestly, to my mind I'd drop the roll and just go with, 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 to make sure huge creatures are still pretty tough and to make full figure casualty removal a thing.  But for the declared purpose of these rules equating mettle to a die type seems necessary.

Also, this is at an early stage and I'm open to suggestions.  I think if something isn't gotten out there we'll wind up with a proliferation of standards that amounts to everyone doing their own thing with no compatible core so, I'm suggesting a very tight, low level core that standardizes terminology and lets people implement their own ideas on top of it.  At present I feel the 1 - 20 + Characteristic + Mettle Stage - 10  (not the best term for it I know) necessitates an opposed role or division by two to avoid running out of the mechanical range.  But by not using indiviual calculations and thus not cluttering the character sheet authors can use whatever modifier arrangement they prefer in their own work without producing incompatible numbers in print.

The stat block is then:

Mettle Stage:
Race:
Type:

Awareness #
Coordination #
Endurance #
Knowledge #
Physique #
Will #

Skills:
Equipment

And you shouldn't need any more numbers than Mettle, Armour, Weapon Damage, and Characteristic scores.

I see your types and rise my Castes/Roles:

Skald or Minstrel = Bard
Warrior = Fighter
Mage, Magi, Magus, Sorcerer, Thaumaturge = Wizard
Knave, Scoundrel = Thief, Rogue
Templar, War Priest = Cleric

Of course the fluff is missing still.

As for characteristics:

Strength (STR): represents raw physical prowess, including the ability to lift, push and otherwise exert force.
Reflexes (REF): covers agility, coordination, dexterity, reaction speed, sense of balance, and speed.
Health (HLT): reflects overall constitution, general health, resistance to disease/poison, and fitness.
Intellect (INT): represents sharpness of mind, clarity of thought, intelligence, memory, and alertness.
Will (WIL): reflects mental strength, ego, force of conviction, resolve, focus, and concentration
Presence (PRE): represents the character's general personality, charisma, and innate persuasiveness.

Life Points (LP) = HP (Method of generation?

Character Points (CP) = XP

Well, I expect anyone's list is as good or better than mine if everyone will agree to stick with it.  TSR sued over Strength and lost so it's probably safe but the point is to step away completely even changing terms like Dungeon Master and Non Player Character just to be on the safe side.

As I noted I went with a hit dice system specifically because the core should still be the original game in form and function, not because I like it.

I don't think that you guys need to change as much as you think.

This is the Character sheet for Crawfords World's without number (He does not use the OGL):



If WotC decides to hit you with Lawfare, the fact that you changed the name of Armor Class will not save you...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2023, 01:00:20 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 08, 2023, 12:54:54 PM
Hell, I don't know if any of them will go away.

It seems to me that this big 1.1 fiasco are going to start making games that have nothing to do with D&D style rules, which are pretty much all of the OSR group of games.

I know you cannot copyright the game rules.  So, from what I can tell all you need to do is release a game with six "Attribute" scores, Might, Agility, Health, IQ, Spirit, and Attractiveness, and you play the game using a 1D20 to try and roll equal or more than the enemy Armor Category (AC).

Stuff like that is what we can expect?

Boy, am I glad I never got into D&D specifically.  I'm still a Palladium guy, and now rules lite stuff that have damn near nothing to do with Hasbro.

The problem they'll have (and why I'm rewritting stuff right now) is not the rules but the IP from D&D they might have included.

So you can count on all of the fantasy games to have to :

a) Drop all said IP and in the meantime suspend ALL sales.

b) Find the funds to fight WotC/Hasbro in court and this includes getting a court to dictate you can keep selling or suspending ALL sales until the matter is settled.

Because they ALL use D&D IP, with the exception of L&D and Arrows from Indra and maybe LotFP (Can't remember right now) and any other that has exactly ZERO D&D IP on it.

What would constitute D&D IP, though? As far as I understand it, it's only original monsters and spell/place names, as well as the specific wording they use in their rulebooks. I thought you already couldn't use those things under the old OGL anyway.

As a general answer to the OP, I agree with the people who are theorizing that the OGL 1.1 is not really intended to go after OSR games. I'm not an IP lawyer, but outside of a few exceptions, I don't think they have a very good case against most of the bigger OSR games for copyright infringement, even absent the OGL, and the OSR isn't really that big of a market competitor for them. I think they're going after the third-party publishers that specifically design and market their products as "5e compatible". There seems to have been a big boom in that over the last few years. I haven't seen figures, but it seems like a fair few people are making a lot of money off of third-party 5e products, and I think the OGL 1.1 is designed to try and steal a piece of that pie. 

A lot of people are saying they're trying to avoid another Pathfinder fiasco, but even then, from everything I'm reading and hearing, it wouldn't be that hard for a company to make a 5e-like game while still avoiding trademark/copyright infringement.

Quote from: Jaeger on January 08, 2023, 02:25:10 PM
I don't think that you guys need to change as much as you think.

This is the Character sheet for Crawfords World's without number (He does not use the OGL):



If WotC decides to hit you with Lawfare, the fact that you changed the name of Armor Class will not save you...

Concepts like hit points, armor class and ability stats isn't something D&D can hope to copyright.  It's in common use across all games.  It is specifics that they can go after.  A paladin character class, WotC can't do anything about.  Now adding in a holy smite that does 2d8 radiant damage + 1d8 damage for undead/fiends for a level 1 spell slot - yup you will get hit for that.  Meanwhile you could have a Paladin being a holy warrior who buffs people near them and you can have Bards that does 2d8 psychic damage + 1d8 damage for humanoid/beast for for a 1st level spell and there is nothing WotC can do.  Similar names, functionally different abilities.  Hell they could give Paladins a Cure/Harm ability where they could cure damage or inflict damage. 

This comes down to lawfare, WotC has very little to stand on when people will just adjust their content to ignore them.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 02:24:07 PM
Well, I expect anyone's list is as good or better than mine if everyone will agree to stick with it.  TSR sued over Strength and lost so it's probably safe but the point is to step away completely even changing terms like Dungeon Master and Non Player Character just to be on the safe side.

As I noted I went with a hit dice system specifically because the core should still be the original game in form and function, not because I like it.

If they were to try and copyright terms like "NPC" or "Dexterity" or "Ranger" or whatever, they wouldn't just be up against other TRPGs. Those are prevalent terms in the videogaming industry as well. I can't see them wanting to risk treading on the toes of someone like Activision or Bandai Namco, especially on such flimsy grounds. Not to mention that plenty of other publishers have been using those terms for decades.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 08, 2023, 02:25:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2023, 01:00:20 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 08, 2023, 12:54:54 PM
Hell, I don't know if any of them will go away.

It seems to me that this big 1.1 fiasco are going to start making games that have nothing to do with D&D style rules, which are pretty much all of the OSR group of games.

I know you cannot copyright the game rules.  So, from what I can tell all you need to do is release a game with six "Attribute" scores, Might, Agility, Health, IQ, Spirit, and Attractiveness, and you play the game using a 1D20 to try and roll equal or more than the enemy Armor Category (AC).

Stuff like that is what we can expect?

Boy, am I glad I never got into D&D specifically.  I'm still a Palladium guy, and now rules lite stuff that have damn near nothing to do with Hasbro.

The problem they'll have (and why I'm rewritting stuff right now) is not the rules but the IP from D&D they might have included.

So you can count on all of the fantasy games to have to :

a) Drop all said IP and in the meantime suspend ALL sales.

b) Find the funds to fight WotC/Hasbro in court and this includes getting a court to dictate you can keep selling or suspending ALL sales until the matter is settled.

Because they ALL use D&D IP, with the exception of L&D and Arrows from Indra and maybe LotFP (Can't remember right now) and any other that has exactly ZERO D&D IP on it.

What would constitute D&D IP, though? As far as I understand it, it's only original monsters and spell/place names, as well as the specific wording they use in their rulebooks. I thought you already couldn't use those things under the old OGL anyway.

As a general answer to the OP, I agree with the people who are theorizing that the OGL 1.1 is not really intended to go after OSR games. I'm not an IP lawyer, but outside of a few exceptions, I don't think they have a very good case against most of the bigger OSR games for copyright infringement, even absent the OGL, and the OSR isn't really that big of a market competitor for them. I think they're going after the third-party publishers that specifically design and market their products as "5e compatible". There seems to have been a big boom in that over the last few years. I haven't seen figures, but it seems like a fair few people are making a lot of money off of third-party 5e products, and I think the OGL 1.1 is designed to try and steal a piece of that pie. 

A lot of people are saying they're trying to avoid another Pathfinder fiasco, but even then, from everything I'm reading and hearing, it wouldn't be that hard for a company to make a 5e-like game while still avoiding trademark/copyright infringement.

What's WotC's IP?

ANYTHYNG and EVERYTHING in their SRD except the names of mythological creatures.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on January 08, 2023, 02:35:05 PMA paladin character class, WotC can't do anything about.

And yet it's the less generic class name, probably. I wonder if this is why it became a champion in Pathfinder 2e.

As far as fluff goes I believe it should be minimal as possible to make clear which term is being replaced by what.

Kevin Crawford, like everyone else is free to test the boundaries and pay their own legal fees.

I recognize that many terms have entered common usage and if WotC went after them, the video game companies would probably chip in for the lawyers.  Even so, I think a full break is best because it prevents potential overlaps and oversights.

Of course everyone wants their own class names and so forth and that's fine, good even, but that's just one more reason to keep the public domain core generic.  It's not existing to create a new retroclone or a new license or a new game.  Hell I've done those things myself.  It's to lay a common ground that will be useful to everyone who wants to create material that is compatible with the other game and each other without getting their ass sued.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 02:24:07 PM
Well, I expect anyone's list is as good or better than mine if everyone will agree to stick with it.  TSR sued over Strength and lost so it's probably safe but the point is to step away completely even changing terms like Dungeon Master and Non Player Character just to be on the safe side.

As I noted I went with a hit dice system specifically because the core should still be the original game in form and function, not because I like it.

What I like about your types is that they are more generic, therefore easier to addpat to different settings.

Quote from: Frey on January 08, 2023, 04:14:59 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on January 08, 2023, 02:35:05 PMA paladin character class, WotC can't do anything about.

And yet it's the less generic class name, probably. I wonder if this is why it became a champion in Pathfinder 2e.

Plust it allows them to remove ALL religious refferences.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 04:30:57 PM
As far as fluff goes I believe it should be minimal as possible to make clear which term is being replaced by what.

Kevin Crawford, like everyone else is free to test the boundaries and pay their own legal fees.

I recognize that many terms have entered common usage and if WotC went after them, the video game companies would probably chip in for the lawyers.  Even so, I think a full break is best because it prevents potential overlaps and oversights.

Of course everyone wants their own class names and so forth and that's fine, good even, but that's just one more reason to keep the public domain core generic.  It's not existing to create a new retroclone or a new license or a new game.  Hell I've done those things myself.  It's to lay a common ground that will be useful to everyone who wants to create material that is compatible with the other game and each other without getting their ass sued.

Oh, I agree, the fluff of a generic public domain system should minimal or zero. It's the foundation for others to build a game on top of it not a full game.