So Mettle Stage = Level

I'm using Rank in the stuff I started developing yesterday.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 09:57:59 PM
So here's a hard question that challenges my assertion that this isn't really a system, just a placeholder in a framework.

Should there be balance control tools for building races and spells.  If it's just a pick two traits thing there might still need to be some kind of a tool for balancing traits and we're off to the races creating a whole new system.  On the other hand the goal is cross compatibility.

Most of my games use some variation of the following

Total to determine Circle:

Trivial Effect 0
Minor Effect 1
Major Effect 2
Legendary Effect 3

Range
Touch 0
Ranged 1
Regional 2

Duration
Instant / Permanent Effect  0 (damage)
One Combat 1
Hours 2
Days 3

Area
Individual 1
Tactical Radius 2
Battle Field 3
Region 4

Re: Races

I'm leaning more and more towards either your races or mine with some example of what they stand for.

As for the spells... Either write them up from scratch or build another system to create them, is there an example of the math used to develop them?

Quote from: JeremyR on January 08, 2023, 09:51:48 PM
I think the most realistic way is to go the Kevin Crawford route. Use the terms, but don't use any text

The most painful thing will be rewriting new spell descriptions

What does that mean? Can you provide an example?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2023, 10:07:45 PM
So Mettle Stage = Level

I'm using Rank in the stuff I started developing yesterday.

Rank is good, probably clearer and better, mind if I use that?

Another question is how to approach the various osr publishers with the idea.  They've probably been working on stuff already right?

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 10:31:31 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2023, 10:07:45 PM
So Mettle Stage = Level

I'm using Rank in the stuff I started developing yesterday.

Rank is good, probably clearer and better, mind if I use that?

Thanks, no I don't mind I was going to place my stuff under the OGL, now I'm helping you develop an CC By SA engine/system even if in a limited fashion so I can benefit from it.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 10:36:00 PM
Another question is how to approach the various osr publishers with the idea.  They've probably been working on stuff already right?

If they have it can't be longer than a week since they had no reason to. So I think it's a matter of speed and quality and the market will decide.

As for approaching them... Try social media or their email if you can find it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2023, 10:50:24 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 10:36:00 PM
Another question is how to approach the various osr publishers with the idea.  They've probably been working on stuff already right?

If they have it can't be longer than a week since they had no reason to. So I think it's a matter of speed and quality and the market will decide.

As for approaching them... Try social media or their email if you can find it.

It sounded like Paizo had at least wargamed out the prospect of having to do PF2e without the OGL. Many of Pundit's products never had an OGL in the first place. I spent years building a non-OGL system and setting for my intended books.

If that many types were already looking at non-OGL alternatives I imagine many other creators at least gave idle thought to the idea. As such, some might already be further along than you'd think in having a viable alternative.

The BIG question after being burned by the OGL is whether all the previous OGL-based creators can actually come together on the same shared system or whether this will return us to the pre-OGL days of each publisher having their own bespoke systems with conversion being left to the GM and player base to figure out.

The one advantage of D&D as the big dog was that they set a sort of default standard to unify mechanics around. Now without that you have a bunch of egos each with their own variants that will need to become even more variant without the OGL's protections and getting a compromise even on something as simple as attribute names and hit point scaling will likely be a far greater challenge than just building your own bespoke ruleset that does exactly what you want it to do for your setting.

Lord knows that was a big part of why I ended up breaking free of the OGL chain on my own project years ago. There was just too much accumulated cruft to certain terms and concepts which made it difficult for me to use the normal D&D-isms in the way I wanted without pushback because how I was using elements didn't conform to the cruft. Once I realized my project looked no more like D&D than Palladium Fantasy did I realized it was time to jump ship on the OGL... and I have zero interest in compromising my setting and the supporting mechanics for it just to fall in line with another group's ideas for a game engine that likely won't fit my setting as well because its not designed specifically for my setting.

By contrast, I'd be quite happy for others to use my setting and system for their own projects... but I'm certain all the other serious content creators looking at retooling their systems away from the OSR feel the exact same way... which is basically the impasse of trying to coordinate an alternative to the OGL/SRD.

Here's some common spells under the system above.  Clearly it doesn't quite line up yet, I'll need to fiddle with it.  It's more of a system issue but I'm prone to wanting Circle = Rank (which I've previously called Mettle Stage)

Benediction 2nd circle, general +1, Tactical Area, individual, Close
Subversion 3rd circle, Resisted by Will, Hours, Individual, Close
Flash Bolt 2nd circle 1 - 6 Damage, Ranged, Instant, Individual
Sombulance 3rd circle, Resisted by Endurance, Tactical Radius, Instant, Close
Inferno 3rd circle, 1 - 12 Damage, Tactical Radius, Instant, Ranged
Galvanic Discharge 4th Circle, 1 - 6 per Circle Damage Instant Ranged
Disenchantment 3rd circle, Major Effect, Instant, Close
Healing 1st circle, 1 - 6 Injuries Restored, Instant, Touch, individual
Cleanse Sickness 1st circle, Minor Effect, Instant, Touch, Individual

Chris24601 that's a big post to quote   My answer is simply this: I'm not suggesting a system.  Sure a system is there to describe what things do rather than directly equating them to potentially proprietary terms.  What I am suggesting is a set of public domain non-proprietary terms.  I'm really open to suggestions because every time I start writing a clone it takes on too many of my own preferences.  I'd also love to hear from any publishers even if they laugh in my face because, while my time isn't particularly valuable, it is my time and I value it so if this is a futile waste I'd like to know that before I sink too much effort into it.  Right now it's mainly a fun thought experiment.  It may be it's too late, it may always have been too late, but I'd hate to see things go forward in a splintered and scattered manner when the oportunity to grasp at a little compatability seems to be here right now.

As for skills, at least the ones on char gen can be replaced with backgrounds:

Cultural backgrounds
Savage
Barbarian
Nomad
Civilized
Decadent

Social Backgrounds (these are affected by the previous)
Ideally these should represent the social stratta the character belongs to, I haven't developed them tho.

Proffessional backgrounds (These represent what the character did before taking the life of an adventurer)
Example Shamelessly stolen from BoL

Alchemist
Assassin
Barbarian (This one should be a cultural background)
Blacksmith
Dancer
Executioner
Farmer
Galen
Gladiator
Hunter
Mercenary
Merchant
Minstrel
Noble (This one might be better on the social backgrounds list)
Pilot
Pirate
Priest/Druid
Scribe
Slave
Soldier
Thief
Wench
Wizard (or Sorcerer, Necromancer)

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 11:29:32 PM
Here's some common spells under the system above.  Clearly it doesn't quite line up yet, I'll need to fiddle with it.  It's more of a system issue but I'm prone to wanting Circle = Rank (which I've previously called Mettle Stage)

Benediction 2nd circle, general +1, Tactical Area, individual, Close
Subversion 3rd circle, Resisted by Will, Hours, Individual, Close
Flash Bolt 2nd circle 1 - 6 Damage, Ranged, Instant, Individual
Sombulance 3rd circle, Resisted by Endurance, Tactical Radius, Instant, Close
Inferno 3rd circle, 1 - 12 Damage, Tactical Radius, Instant, Ranged
Galvanic Discharge 4th Circle, 1 - 6 per Circle Damage Instant Ranged
Disenchantment 3rd circle, Major Effect, Instant, Close
Healing 1st circle, 1 - 6 Injuries Restored, Instant, Touch, individual
Cleanse Sickness 1st circle, Minor Effect, Instant, Touch, Individual

I would keep Circle but equate it to school instead of to Rank:

The Circle of Air
The Circle of Blood
The Circle of Earth
The Circle of Fire
The Circle of the Moon
The Circle of Water

Each Circle has it's own perview and special spells and rituals/ingredients:

The Circle of Air has magical music for a special spell it needs Air/wind for the rituals/ingredients (among other things) and it's perview is?

So, with the skills I see them as being specific to activities in play.  Backgrounds aren't though they can justify skills (also can we say savage anymore? ).  Also, 5e has a very similar skill system and it probably needs some equivalent.  5th edition backgrounds are basically fluff and, once again more appropriate to settings.

When it comes to Circles of spells I'm reminded of the paragraph "On the Use of the Word Level' in Holmes basic.  I'd like to use two different terms to avoid confusion.  The use of circles you suggest is some what like the various types of spell in D&D and somewhat like colleges in Dragon Quest and GURPS but likely best suited to specific settings.

The main reason for alternate caster types is the attribute used rather than the list of available spells.

I couldn't even find a way to contact Goblinoid Games and Kobold Press is almost as closed off.  Who else would you suggest?

Quote from: David Johansen on January 08, 2023, 11:56:44 PM
So, with the skills I see them as being specific to activities in play.  Backgrounds aren't though they can justify skills (also can we say savage anymore? ).  Also, 5e has a very similar skill system and it probably needs some equivalent.  5th edition backgrounds are basically fluff and, once again more appropriate to settings.

When it comes to Circles of spells I'm reminded of the paragraph "On the Use of the Word Level' in Holmes basic.  I'd like to use two different terms to avoid confusion.  The use of circles you suggest is some what like the various types of spell in D&D and somewhat like colleges in Dragon Quest and GURPS but likely best suited to specific settings.

The main reason for alternate caster types is the attribute used rather than the list of available spells.

I couldn't even find a way to contact Goblinoid Games and Kobold Press is almost as closed off.  Who else would you suggest?

BoL (Barbarians of Lemuria) uses the background list instead of skills, of course the player has to negotiate with the GM sometimes to justify stuff but it works:

Would you say that a Savage knows better the jungle than a civilized man?

A sailor knows how to navigate with the stars/sun, can he do the same on land?

A Barbarian might go into a Berserker rage, but not a civilized man since he's been tamed by civilization.

Examples for a modern/Sci-Fi setting can be provided.

But skills are concrete and backgrounds are abstract.  I have a deep and abiding hate of DM fiat.