Quote from: squirewaldo on January 09, 2023, 07:25:00 PM

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 09, 2023, 03:47:36 PM

Quote from: blackstone on January 09, 2023, 02:58:09 PM
OSE: DEAD
Swords & Wizardry: DEAD
OSRIC: DEAD
Labyrinth Lord: DEAD
Dungeon Crawl Classics: DEAD
Castles & Crusades: DEAD
Mork Borg: DEAD

UNLESS you bend you knee to WoTC, kiss their ass, and use OGL v1.1

Or, just... don't use the OGL. At All. Most of those games really don't have to, to begin with.

I think you are right. Yesterday I broke down and started removing the OGL 1.0a and any covered content from a few projects I am working on and I was surprised about how easy it was. And I went overboard. I removed or changed anything that I thought might result in OGL kicking in. Of course the rules were not directly based on the SRDs and were not 'sword and sorcery' stuff... but I just don't think it is going to take that much effort to remove the OGL and covered content from your work.

That said, it is still not clear that this new OGL 1.1 will or is even intended to 'revoke' the prior OGLs. If the old OGLs are not going to face retroactive revocation, I am not sure there is any risk to these OSR rules.

We will see.

The rules don't need a license, neither do the stat blocks and some other stuff like attributes. It's the really unique fluff that's in question, like their take on Tiamat, not the name but the description and really original monsters.

And for that matter, if people want to retain an OGL-like effect for interoperability between OSR products, there's nothing stopping someone from writing up their own license that does effectively the same thing, save for any explicit stuff that WotC put under the original OGL. There are more "open <whatever> licenses" and "community <whatever> licenses" out there than I have digits. There isn't any particular magic to it.

Guys, they can't legally revoke 1.0a.

Quote3. Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your
acceptance of the terms of this License.

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License,
the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive
license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

By a content creator using the 1.0 OGL content initially, WotC entered into a contract with the content creator.  (4) indicates that this contract does not have any expiration, and is royalty-free.  By attempting to revoke 1.0, WotC is in breach of contract.  All it will take is one lawsuit, and any even remotely reasonable court will find WotC at fault.  It's sabre-rattling, and will never hold up in court.

(IANAL disclaimer of course.  Don't take this as legal advice.)

Just keep using 1.0a.  Let them rattle their sabre, while we all engage in mass noncompliance so as to draw them out into court where they'll lose.  Eff 'em.  They know it's bunk, and are just trying to scare you into paying their extortion fee or quitting.  When you strip the 1.0 OGL content from your game,  you are giving them what they want.  Don't do that.

Anyone who signs the deal for OGL1.1, will forever be WOTC's underling; forever walking on eggshells.

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2023, 08:55:41 PM
Guys, they can't legally revoke 1.0a.

Quote3. Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your
acceptance of the terms of this License.

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License,
the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive
license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

By a content creator using the 1.0 OGL content initially, WotC entered into a contract with the content creator.  (4) indicates that this contract does not have any expiration, and is royalty-free.  By attempting to revoke 1.0, WotC is in breach of contract.  All it will take is one lawsuit, and any even remotely reasonable court will find WotC at fault.  It's sabre-rattling, and will never hold up in court.

(IANAL disclaimer of course.  Don't take this as legal advice.)

Just keep using 1.0a.  Let them rattle their sabre, while we all engage in mass noncompliance so as to draw them out into court where they'll lose.  Eff 'em.  They know it's bunk, and are just trying to scare you into paying their extortion fee or quitting.  When you strip the 1.0 OGL content from your game,  you are giving them what they want.  Don't do that.

Yes of course except actual IP lawyers have commented publicly on this and WotC may very well be able to revoke the OGL. Also who wants to step up and be the one that gets sued to prove them wrong? Volunteers? Anyone?

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 09, 2023, 09:13:53 PM

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2023, 08:55:41 PM
Guys, they can't legally revoke 1.0a.

Quote3. Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your
acceptance of the terms of this License.

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License,
the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive
license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

By a content creator using the 1.0 OGL content initially, WotC entered into a contract with the content creator.  (4) indicates that this contract does not have any expiration, and is royalty-free.  By attempting to revoke 1.0, WotC is in breach of contract.  All it will take is one lawsuit, and any even remotely reasonable court will find WotC at fault.  It's sabre-rattling, and will never hold up in court.

(IANAL disclaimer of course.  Don't take this as legal advice.)

Just keep using 1.0a.  Let them rattle their sabre, while we all engage in mass noncompliance so as to draw them out into court where they'll lose.  Eff 'em.  They know it's bunk, and are just trying to scare you into paying their extortion fee or quitting.  When you strip the 1.0 OGL content from your game,  you are giving them what they want.  Don't do that.

Yes of course except actual IP lawyers have commented publicly on this and WotC may very well be able to revoke the OGL. Also who wants to step up and be the one that gets sued to prove them wrong? Volunteers? Anyone?

Well, if you create a fund of several million dollars and a binding contract to keep on pouring money if/when needed I volunteer to let them sue me.

I'm just stunned how this can potentially bring down a whole cottage industry. I've been at this for over 40 years. Played all sorts of RPGs. Been to all sorts of conventions. Gamed with many different groups. The impact OGL v1.1 will have on the RPG community cannot be underestimated. WoTC is acting as if they are not just the gatekeepers of DnD, but of the ENTIRE INDUSTRY. They've made the rules and regulations for 3rd party content so strict, only a idiot would agree to them. When WoTC named the new version One D&D, they wern't kidding. They only want their ONE game out there. No derivatives. No others. JUST. ONE. GAME.

How BORING.

Imagine going to a con and the vast majority of the RPGs are D&D. Like 90%.

How fucking lame would that be?

I got into the community because it was quirky and fringe. I felt like I fit in. Then I saw there were others games besides D&D to play. It opened me up to a whole different world.

Now?

It feels sanitized. Corporate. Vanilla.

The suits have taken over.

And I fucking hate it.

So what do we do?

Tell them what they're doing is WRONG! https://www.opendnd.games/

Sign the petition! Make your voice heard!

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 09, 2023, 09:13:53 PM
Yes of course except actual IP lawyers have commented publicly on this and WotC may very well be able to revoke the OGL. Also who wants to step up and be the one that gets sued to prove them wrong? Volunteers? Anyone?

I think the most common view is that WoTC would probably lose in court - one lawyer type suggested an over 90% chance, given a properly funded defence - which looks right to me. But getting there would be a pain, especially in the USA. Not so bad here in England with loser pays winners costs + no win no fee. Plus the fees here would not be i the millions of $ some people have bandied about re US costs. And our courts would I think take a dim view of WoTC trying to shut down OGL 1.0 after 22 years.

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2023, 08:55:41 PM
Guys, they can't legally revoke 1.0a.

Quote3. Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your
acceptance of the terms of this License.

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License,
the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive
license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

By a content creator using the 1.0 OGL content initially, WotC entered into a contract with the content creator.  (4) indicates that this contract does not have any expiration, and is royalty-free.  By attempting to revoke 1.0, WotC is in breach of contract.  All it will take is one lawsuit, and any even remotely reasonable court will find WotC at fault.  It's sabre-rattling, and will never hold up in court.

(IANAL disclaimer of course.  Don't take this as legal advice.)

Just keep using 1.0a.  Let them rattle their sabre, while we all engage in mass noncompliance so as to draw them out into court where they'll lose.  Eff 'em.  They know it's bunk, and are just trying to scare you into paying their extortion fee or quitting.  When you strip the 1.0 OGL content from your game,  you are giving them what they want.  Don't do that.

I do actually think this is the best view, although I also understand why people are worried.

Quote from: S'mon on January 10, 2023, 03:22:49 AM

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2023, 08:55:41 PM
Guys, they can't legally revoke 1.0a.

Quote3. Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your
acceptance of the terms of this License.

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License,
the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive
license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

By a content creator using the 1.0 OGL content initially, WotC entered into a contract with the content creator.  (4) indicates that this contract does not have any expiration, and is royalty-free.  By attempting to revoke 1.0, WotC is in breach of contract.  All it will take is one lawsuit, and any even remotely reasonable court will find WotC at fault.  It's sabre-rattling, and will never hold up in court.

(IANAL disclaimer of course.  Don't take this as legal advice.)

Just keep using 1.0a.  Let them rattle their sabre, while we all engage in mass noncompliance so as to draw them out into court where they'll lose.  Eff 'em.  They know it's bunk, and are just trying to scare you into paying their extortion fee or quitting.  When you strip the 1.0 OGL content from your game,  you are giving them what they want.  Don't do that.

I do actually think this is the best view, although I also understand why people are worried.

IMHO the best course of action is to drop the OGL and WotC's SRD altogether and build our own stuff under an open license, some are already working on it as we speak.

Expert analysis of this situation by a renowned lawyer who is also a gamer and good friend/frequent guest of Rekieta Law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_dVH-0Yf8o&t=916s&ab_channel=RollofLaw

I was browsing through Facebook and the internet and seeing the reactions from various 3rd party publishers in the OSR and other 3rd party publishers:

-it seems that LL 2nd ed may be on hold or may not see the light of day.

-OSRIC is holding fast to OGL 1.0a. Thus giving the WoTC Nazis the middle finger.

-OSE's publisher is as of right now reevaluating things. Kind of a "wait and see" stance. they say they may have to redo their release schedule because of this.

-With Pathfinder, there's an open discussion on their forums right now. Not sure of Paizo's official stance though.

-Goodman Games, publisher of Dungeon Crawl Classics and Mutant Crawl Classics is quiet about this for now. Forums are pretty silent there.

that's all for now...

In case no one saw it: https://www.facebook.com/trolllordgamesllc

From troll Lord Games regarding the Hasbro/Wotc OGL 1.1.
TLG has been a longtime supporter of WoTC and Dungeons and Dragons. We started playing D&D in 1976. The news about the OGL 1.0 (a), if it is true, and it is important to note that as of this moment nothing official has been released, is rather disappointing. Supporting the new OGL, in the form it appeared in the leaked commentary, is not an option for us at TLG. If it manifests in this speculated form, it is an unnecessarily harsh treatment of the entire TTRPG family, those who played, play, and who publish. It is basically an admission of distrust in the people who play their game, the very ones who bring it to ever greater heights of expression. TLG does not share that philosophy. The only thing that maintains our stance in this ttrpg family is the family itself, creators, publishers, players, game masters, their own families, and friends who cheer them on from the sidelines. TLG will not sign this leaked OGL, nor participate in it in any way. Castles & Crusades and all the Siege Engine games are powered by the Siege Engine Attribute Check Mechanic, which is owned entirely by our parent company Chenault & Gray Publishing. What little pieces of the SRD leaked its way into our game over the years, we'll quietly remove, and carry on making and publishing games for us all to play.

I'll be interested to see Matt Finch's take for a couple reasons:

1. He was planning to release a new edition of Swords & Wizardry early this year under his own Mythmere Games moniker
2. He is a lawyer who has been very careful in the past about what he includes (or doesn't) in his game

But to be honest, this will really have little impact on me or my gaming.  I already have way more gaming stuff than I need.  I have plenty of rulebooks and supplements to keep me occupied until I die.  And we're transitioning over even more to Castles & Crusades, which looks like it's going forward with no real issues.  Finally, there are tons of non-OGL games still out there.  So here's hoping WOTC shoots itself in the foot, just because, but in the end gaming will continue.

Quote from: Brad on January 10, 2023, 08:33:33 AM
In case no one saw it: https://www.facebook.com/trolllordgamesllc

From troll Lord Games regarding the Hasbro/Wotc OGL 1.1.
TLG has been a longtime supporter of WoTC and Dungeons and Dragons. We started playing D&D in 1976. The news about the OGL 1.0 (a), if it is true, and it is important to note that as of this moment nothing official has been released, is rather disappointing. Supporting the new OGL, in the form it appeared in the leaked commentary, is not an option for us at TLG. If it manifests in this speculated form, it is an unnecessarily harsh treatment of the entire TTRPG family, those who played, play, and who publish. It is basically an admission of distrust in the people who play their game, the very ones who bring it to ever greater heights of expression. TLG does not share that philosophy. The only thing that maintains our stance in this ttrpg family is the family itself, creators, publishers, players, game masters, their own families, and friends who cheer them on from the sidelines. TLG will not sign this leaked OGL, nor participate in it in any way. Castles & Crusades and all the Siege Engine games are powered by the Siege Engine Attribute Check Mechanic, which is owned entirely by our parent company Chenault & Gray Publishing. What little pieces of the SRD leaked its way into our game over the years, we'll quietly remove, and carry on making and publishing games for us all to play.

I'm going to grab this for cross-posting to the other thread, if you don't mind.

EDIT: Never mind. Just saw you already did it.