.45 ACP according to this Fudd thread.

Quote from: Spooky on April 13, 2025, 03:32:25 AM

Quote from: moonsweeper on April 13, 2025, 02:26:45 AMIf they have stats for the SW 5906 it will be in the Civilian Weapon Supplement.

Bingo! I have a PDF of that that I forgot I had.



These two models aren't exact but have to be close analogues..? Still researching...

Nice. I don't think you're going to find anything official closer than that. Nice find.

You might poke around this site, though note that it's unfinished and unofficial.
https://phoenixcommand.net/tables/guns.html

Quote from: Socratic-DM on April 13, 2025, 12:17:53 PM.45 ACP according to this Fudd thread.

It was a hyperbolic metaphor. But we all know that a .44 can blow a head clean off.

Ahhh yes the old 9 vs 45 debate...guess the AR/AK debate is next.

That said, I got a .44 mag cowboy action pistol for hogs at my cabin, but typically just carry my 1911 99% of the time. I got my wife a small frame 9, it shoots super nice and with the right ammo it'll do the trick, it's not as big a difference as it used to be. Even my 380 is extremely effective with modern ammo.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on April 13, 2025, 12:17:53 PM.45 ACP according to this Fudd thread.

haha. Is the guy with the .45 supposed to be anyone in particular?

Quote from: D-ko on April 13, 2025, 12:51:57 PMYou might poke around this site, though note that it's unfinished and unofficial.
https://phoenixcommand.net/tables/guns.html

I've been following that project for years. It's definitely interesting but I'm not sure of the need for it. Part of the reason I play analogue games and avoid computer simulations is I want to see the numbers and math laid out in front of me.

Having said that the practicalities of cross referencing so many tables required me to photocopy everything and basically build a flow chart with my own notes on it. Otherwise I found myself constantly flipping the included cardstock charts and trying to remember what was on the opposite side.

I'm so impressed the 9mm vs 45 debate is still going.

I'm reminded of when the ADF changed from the SLR to the Austeyr, from 7.62 to 5.56mm. And one of the grunts opined that the 5.56 was too weak and harmless. The instructing sergeant showing us the Austeyr said, "Rightyo, then, you go over there and I'll shoot you with it and we'll see." The grunt silently declined the opportunity to test his assertion.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 13, 2025, 07:19:53 PMI'm so impressed the 9mm vs 45 debate is still going.

I'm reminded of when the ADF changed from the SLR to the Austeyr, from 7.62 to 5.56mm. And one of the grunts opined that the 5.56 was too weak and harmless. The instructing sergeant showing us the Austeyr said, "Rightyo, then, you go over there and I'll shoot you with it and we'll see." The grunt silently declined the opportunity to test his assertion.

Ha. Yeah. I'm glad that GURPS Tactical Shooting exposes the old myth that the change to 5.56 was to produce more wounds over kills and tie up enemy resources caring for the wounded - nope, a wounded man can still fight.

5.56 basically produces kills at longer ranges and the M855 round is a semi armor piercer basically designed to punch through Soviet steel helmets at range. This is why I stick to GURPS 3E, it models this in a note and makes the ammo perform differently to the Vietnam era M193.
 

I think the best argument I've ever heard for 5.56 over 7.62 is you can carry about twice as much ammo. So yeah maybe it's 75% as effective, but I'm shooting so much more lead does it even matter?

Quote from: Brad on April 13, 2025, 09:09:50 PMI think the best argument I've ever heard for 5.56 over 7.62 is you can carry about twice as much ammo. So yeah maybe it's 75% as effective, but I'm shooting so much more lead does it even matter?

In games this tends to fall apart if the hit chances are too high. In a game like Twilight 2000 (2.2e) where autofire hits are around 15-20%, then running low on ammo is a real worry and having more is always useful. In other games I've played, like Cyberpunk 2020, PCs tend to hit around 75%+ so having less ammo but with more powerful punch has been preferred.

Quote from: Brad on April 13, 2025, 09:09:50 PMI think the best argument I've ever heard for 5.56 over 7.62 is you can carry about twice as much ammo. So yeah maybe it's 75% as effective, but I'm shooting so much more lead does it even matter?

Yeah, that was another reason for its introduction, to match US doctrine of using overwhelming suppressive fire/recon by fire/shoot anything that moves.

However at range and at the intended targets I wouldn't call 5.56 only 75% as effective as 7.62.

In MOUT 7.62 CAN punch through a door or wall more effectively. 

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 13, 2025, 10:29:04 PM

Quote from: Brad on April 13, 2025, 09:09:50 PMI think the best argument I've ever heard for 5.56 over 7.62 is you can carry about twice as much ammo. So yeah maybe it's 75% as effective, but I'm shooting so much more lead does it even matter?

In games this tends to fall apart if the hit chances are too high. In a game like Twilight 2000 (2.2e) where autofire hits are around 15-20%, then running low on ammo is a real worry and having more is always useful. In other games I've played, like Cyberpunk 2020, PCs tend to hit around 75%+ so having less ammo but with more powerful punch has been preferred.

That's an good observation. I had to monkey with T2K 2.0 SO much to get it to work in a campaign I ran with it.  For a start you could have guys getting hit 4 or 5 times in the chest with an assault rifle and still carrying on. Damage was waaaaay too light. I ended up doubling it and tripling it for vitals. Quadrupal for head shots. The auto fire hitting on 6s was weird. Yeah sometimes it was better/more accurate to go full auto than take a single shot at certain ranges. Dumb.

Quote from: Brad on April 13, 2025, 09:09:50 PMI think the best argument I've ever heard for 5.56 over 7.62 is you can carry about twice as much ammo. So yeah maybe it's 75% as effective, but I'm shooting so much more lead does it even matter?

It doesn't really matter. If it manages to go far enough and gets through armour, it fucks you up.

When you look at handgun deaths vs rifles, rifles are an order of magnitude more lethal. But between calibres it's not a big deal. It's just that a handgun is not that useful at 100 yards, and can be stopped by oldish body armour, and a 5.56 won't do much at 500m but a 7.62mm will.

The effects though are random as all fuck. A certain fraction of people even survive suicide attempts with firearms, and assault headshots are survived, too, sometimes.

Differences due to calibre do exist, but apart from the handgun/rifle divide they're much smaller than the differences due to random chance like whether you hit the poor bastard in the vena cava or it lodged in a rib or something.

Rolling the dice is the most realistic part of any rpg.

Oh, hey, I get to post this and it's actually relevant.


In all seriousness, though, high quality modern 9mm has most of the effect of .45 because the bullets have been optimized. However, a gun shooting .45 will never have the same ammo capacity as a 9mm because you can't stack a larger cylinder as efficiently as a smaller one, and .45 ammunition is fairly heavy because of the larger bullet. So the big difference is that a .45 should have about 75% of the ammo capacity.

Quote from: Fheredin on April 14, 2025, 07:55:59 AMIn all seriousness, though, high quality modern 9mm has most of the effect of .45 because the bullets have been optimized.

I've heard this a lot about "modern ammo". I haven't see any evidence that 9mm produced now vs say the '60s is any better. And if this "optimisation" is true for modern 9mm loads, why hasn't modern .45 also been "optimised"? Why are the assumed improvements in "optimised" 9mm" greater than "optimised" .45? Why does 9mm overtake .45?

Does anyone have any evidence about what specifically is done to "modern" ammo to "optimise" it?

I can give you solid data as to why M855 outperforms M193 in penetration because the rounds are actually constructed differently - the M855 has a harder tip integrated.