Hi,
Would anyone have a stat block for this weapon for PCSACS or could they point me in the right direction?
I'm doing an LAPD scenario and would like to have this weapon modelled.
Thanks.
if nobody else knows, i have a few things i can search. wasn't the terminator game by leading edge compatible?
i'm under the impression that Aliens, Living Steel, and The Terminator Miniatures game used compatible rules but I'm unsure.
Quote from: D-ko on April 12, 2025, 11:57:07 PMif nobody else knows, i have a few things i can search. wasn't the terminator game by leading edge compatible?
i'm under the impression that Aliens, Living Steel, and The Terminator Miniatures game used compatible rules but I'm unsure.
Hmm good idea. the T1000 uses a Beretta 92 in the T2 movie though. I have stats for that.
Also, while I'm here I'm looking at the MAC10 PCSACS stats in .45 ACP and 9mm para. The 9mm version seems to generally inflict more damage. Can any gun experts say if this is accurate? In popular parlance the 45 has more "stopping power"?
I'm sad to say that I know relatively nothing about guns, but enough to know that the pistol from the Aliens RPG isn't exactly what you're looking for but maybe it's enough to help in some way.
(https://i.ibb.co/GfjTDhfw/pistol.png) (https://ibb.co/JWPQThWL)
As long as GPT isn't hallucinating, this chart might be helpful.
(https://i.ibb.co/RkC5jRY0/gptresult.png) (https://ibb.co/kshdmN58)
It would seem that a .45 is clunkier, like a cannon compared to a thin laser. I imagine shooting distance and the organ you're aiming for would play a large part in this. a 9mm hits hard and penetrates better, being thinner, plus you don't have the recoil fatigue. That's really all I've got. Hopefully somebody who actually owns guns can provide more detail or correct me on anything.
Quote from: D-ko on April 13, 2025, 12:16:11 AMI'm sad to say that I know relatively nothing about guns, but enough to know that the pistol from the Aliens RPG isn't exactly what you're looking for but maybe it's enough to help in some way.
(https://i.ibb.co/GfjTDhfw/pistol.png) (https://ibb.co/JWPQThWL)
Thanks for the idea. I think that's always been just basically a H&K VP70 which PCSACs has stats for. I might go with the stats for the S&W model 469 and then account for the longer barrel length on the 5906 by adding an minimum incremental increase to the RID (penetration). PCSACS does this when going from the M15 short Colt govt auto to the M1911A1 full size.
Quote from: D-ko on April 13, 2025, 12:23:10 AMAs long as GPT isn't hallucinating, this chart might be helpful.
(https://i.ibb.co/RkC5jRY0/gptresult.png) (https://ibb.co/kshdmN58)
Sorry I can't see that
The debate rages on reddit (shoulda known) https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/1gd4tw3/i_am_very_confused_concerning_the_45_acp_vs_9mm/
If they have stats for the SW 5906 it will be in the Civilian Weapon Supplement. Unfortunately those books are in storage and I don't have easy access. LEG had a number of movie licenses including Lawnmower Man. It may be in there...and I think I have a copy in one of my filing cabinets here at home. I can check on that tomorrow morning.
There is a website that has the formulas for weapon creation but I have never used it.
http://pccs.understairs.nl/weapondesign.html
... 9mm and .45 ACP both have strong points and weak points...please, for the love of God, do not start a debate about that...imagine the alignment arguments, what is considered OSR question, and the AD&D one-true-wayism shit all wrapped into one debate. I am not fucking kidding. 😁
Greetings!
The .45 hits targets like a truck, inflicting enormous damage in blood loss, tissue destruction, and also causing SHOCK. Human beings are like bags of meat getting struck by massive, bloody power that kills them in moments or at the minimum, leaves them entirely incapacitated and helpless from blood loss and shock. Having an arm or leg blown off or turned into mush tends to do that kind of thing to people. Blowing big holes into a person's chest, stomach, or lungs tends to give them plenty to worry about.
9mm, especially when using more modern ballistic ammunition, it is, to my understanding, a decent weapon. However, it still is not as powerful as the .45 pistol.
As far as fatigue goes? Well, I suppose if you are a small man or a woman, that *might* be a consideration. I have fired a .45 all day. Putting hundreds of rounds down range. After a hundred rounds, for myself, there is some modest fatigue. However, that is just when doing training shooting at the range. In a general firefight against actual human enemies, you do not typically need hundreds or dozens of rounds. One or two rounds into a human enemy and they are done.
I have always had consistent, reliable performance from my Glock Model 21 .45 pistol.
The .45 pistol is a weapon that you can trust your life with, and the lives of your family and friends. A 9mm, in my assessment, just is not as good of a weapon as the .45 pistol.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Spooky on April 13, 2025, 02:17:49 AMQuote from: D-ko on April 13, 2025, 12:23:10 AMAs long as GPT isn't hallucinating, this chart might be helpful.
(https://i.ibb.co/RkC5jRY0/gptresult.png) (https://ibb.co/kshdmN58)
Sorry I can't see that
Okay I can see it now thanks.
Um I just don't like it. There is data in these debates that a .45 IS more likely to stop someone than a 9mm. Looking at GURPS stats they always give the .45 a bit more damage (although it varies between books) and less accuracy. GURPS is a pretty reliable physics engine and I tend to trust it.
So I'm changing the stats for the MAC 10 in .45 in PCSACS for my game. Putting the damage (RID only not DC) marginally above the MAC 10 in 9mm and the accuracy ALM marginally worse.
Quote from: moonsweeper on April 13, 2025, 02:26:45 AMIf they have stats for the SW 5906 it will be in the Civilian Weapon Supplement.
Bingo! I have a PDF of that that I forgot I had.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHdYgQLH/image-2025-04-13-173116336.png)
These two models aren't exact but have to be close analogues..? Still researching...
Quote from: SHARK on April 13, 2025, 02:38:43 AMGreetings!
The .45 hits targets like a truck, inflicting enormous damage in blood loss, tissue destruction, and also causing SHOCK. Human beings are like bags of meat getting struck by massive, bloody power that kills them in moments or at the minimum, leaves them entirely incapacitated and helpless from blood loss and shock. Having an arm or leg blown off or turned into mush tends to do that kind of thing to people. Blowing big holes into a person's chest, stomach, or lungs tends to give them plenty to worry about.
9mm, especially when using more modern ballistic ammunition, it is, to my understanding, a decent weapon. However, it still is not as powerful as the .45 pistol.
As far as fatigue goes? Well, I suppose if you are a small man or a woman, that *might* be a consideration. I have fired a .45 all day. Putting hundreds of rounds down range. After a hundred rounds, for myself, there is some modest fatigue. However, that is just when doing training shooting at the range. In a general firefight against actual human enemies, you do not typically need hundreds or dozens of rounds. One or two rounds into a human enemy and they are done.
I have always had consistent, reliable performance from my Glock Model 21 .45 pistol.
The .45 pistol is a weapon that you can trust your life with, and the lives of your family and friends. A 9mm, in my assessment, just is not as good of a weapon as the .45 pistol.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Thanks for that.
Bad ass.
Quote from: SHARK on April 13, 2025, 02:38:43 AMAs far as fatigue goes? Well, I suppose if you are a small man or a woman, that *might* be a consideration. I have fired a .45 all day. Putting hundreds of rounds down range. After a hundred rounds, for myself, there is some modest fatigue. However, that is just when doing training shooting at the range. In a general firefight against actual human enemies, you do not typically need hundreds or dozens of rounds. One or two rounds into a human enemy and they are done.
He's talking about a SMG with a high RoF, not a handgun. The difference in recoil and the fatigue it causes will be considerably different.
Disregard. I thought this was the thread talking about the MAC-10 SMG (available in both 9mm & .45 versions).
(https://i.ibb.co/GvwnL6x1/fuddlore-all-hail-the-almighty-45-v0-205m65dv9i1a1.webp)
.45 ACP according to this Fudd thread.
Quote from: Spooky on April 13, 2025, 03:32:25 AMQuote from: moonsweeper on April 13, 2025, 02:26:45 AMIf they have stats for the SW 5906 it will be in the Civilian Weapon Supplement.
Bingo! I have a PDF of that that I forgot I had.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHdYgQLH/image-2025-04-13-173116336.png)
These two models aren't exact but have to be close analogues..? Still researching...
Nice. I don't think you're going to find anything official closer than that. Nice find.
You might poke around this site, though note that it's unfinished and unofficial.
https://phoenixcommand.net/tables/guns.html
Quote from: Socratic-DM on April 13, 2025, 12:17:53 PM.45 ACP according to this Fudd thread.
It was a hyperbolic metaphor. But we all know that a .44 can blow a head clean off.
(https://media.tenor.com/dM72xeld4BgAAAAM/clint-eastwood-dirty-haryy.gif)
Ahhh yes the old 9 vs 45 debate...guess the AR/AK debate is next.
That said, I got a .44 mag cowboy action pistol for hogs at my cabin, but typically just carry my 1911 99% of the time. I got my wife a small frame 9, it shoots super nice and with the right ammo it'll do the trick, it's not as big a difference as it used to be. Even my 380 is extremely effective with modern ammo.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on April 13, 2025, 12:17:53 PM.45 ACP according to this Fudd thread.
haha. Is the guy with the .45 supposed to be anyone in particular?
Quote from: D-ko on April 13, 2025, 12:51:57 PMYou might poke around this site, though note that it's unfinished and unofficial.
https://phoenixcommand.net/tables/guns.html
I've been following that project for years. It's definitely interesting but I'm not sure of the need for it. Part of the reason I play analogue games and avoid computer simulations is I want to see the numbers and math laid out in front of me.
Having said that the practicalities of cross referencing so many tables required me to photocopy everything and basically build a flow chart with my own notes on it. Otherwise I found myself constantly flipping the included cardstock charts and trying to remember what was on the opposite side.
I'm so impressed the 9mm vs 45 debate is still going.
I'm reminded of when the ADF changed from the SLR to the Austeyr, from 7.62 to 5.56mm. And one of the grunts opined that the 5.56 was too weak and harmless. The instructing sergeant showing us the Austeyr said, "Rightyo, then, you go over there and I'll shoot you with it and we'll see." The grunt silently declined the opportunity to test his assertion.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 13, 2025, 07:19:53 PMI'm so impressed the 9mm vs 45 debate is still going.
I'm reminded of when the ADF changed from the SLR to the Austeyr, from 7.62 to 5.56mm. And one of the grunts opined that the 5.56 was too weak and harmless. The instructing sergeant showing us the Austeyr said, "Rightyo, then, you go over there and I'll shoot you with it and we'll see." The grunt silently declined the opportunity to test his assertion.
Ha. Yeah. I'm glad that GURPS Tactical Shooting exposes the old myth that the change to 5.56 was to produce more wounds over kills and tie up enemy resources caring for the wounded - nope, a wounded man can still fight.
5.56 basically produces kills at longer ranges and the M855 round is a semi armor piercer basically designed to punch through Soviet steel helmets at range. This is why I stick to GURPS 3E, it models this in a note and makes the ammo perform differently to the Vietnam era M193.
I think the best argument I've ever heard for 5.56 over 7.62 is you can carry about twice as much ammo. So yeah maybe it's 75% as effective, but I'm shooting so much more lead does it even matter?
Quote from: Brad on April 13, 2025, 09:09:50 PMI think the best argument I've ever heard for 5.56 over 7.62 is you can carry about twice as much ammo. So yeah maybe it's 75% as effective, but I'm shooting so much more lead does it even matter?
In games this tends to fall apart if the hit chances are too high. In a game like Twilight 2000 (2.2e) where autofire hits are around 15-20%, then running low on ammo is a real worry and having more is always useful. In other games I've played, like Cyberpunk 2020, PCs tend to hit around 75%+ so having less ammo but with more powerful punch has been preferred.
Quote from: Brad on April 13, 2025, 09:09:50 PMI think the best argument I've ever heard for 5.56 over 7.62 is you can carry about twice as much ammo. So yeah maybe it's 75% as effective, but I'm shooting so much more lead does it even matter?
Yeah, that was another reason for its introduction, to match US doctrine of using overwhelming suppressive fire/recon by fire/shoot anything that moves.
However at range and at the intended targets I wouldn't call 5.56 only 75% as effective as 7.62.
In MOUT 7.62 CAN punch through a door or wall more effectively.
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 13, 2025, 10:29:04 PMQuote from: Brad on April 13, 2025, 09:09:50 PMI think the best argument I've ever heard for 5.56 over 7.62 is you can carry about twice as much ammo. So yeah maybe it's 75% as effective, but I'm shooting so much more lead does it even matter?
In games this tends to fall apart if the hit chances are too high. In a game like Twilight 2000 (2.2e) where autofire hits are around 15-20%, then running low on ammo is a real worry and having more is always useful. In other games I've played, like Cyberpunk 2020, PCs tend to hit around 75%+ so having less ammo but with more powerful punch has been preferred.
That's an good observation. I had to monkey with T2K 2.0 SO much to get it to work in a campaign I ran with it. For a start you could have guys getting hit 4 or 5 times in the chest with an assault rifle and still carrying on. Damage was waaaaay too light. I ended up doubling it and tripling it for vitals. Quadrupal for head shots. The auto fire hitting on 6s was weird. Yeah sometimes it was better/more accurate to go full auto than take a single shot at certain ranges. Dumb.
Quote from: Brad on April 13, 2025, 09:09:50 PMI think the best argument I've ever heard for 5.56 over 7.62 is you can carry about twice as much ammo. So yeah maybe it's 75% as effective, but I'm shooting so much more lead does it even matter?
It doesn't really matter. If it manages to go far enough and gets through armour, it fucks you up.
When you look at handgun deaths vs rifles, rifles are an order of magnitude more lethal. But between calibres it's not a big deal. It's just that a handgun is not that useful at 100 yards, and can be stopped by oldish body armour, and a 5.56 won't do much at 500m but a 7.62mm will.
The effects though are random as all fuck. A certain fraction of people even survive suicide attempts with firearms, and assault headshots are survived, too, sometimes.
Differences due to calibre do exist, but apart from the handgun/rifle divide they're much smaller than the differences due to random chance like whether you hit the poor bastard in the vena cava or it lodged in a rib or something.
Rolling the dice is the most realistic part of any rpg.
Oh, hey, I get to post this and it's actually relevant.
In all seriousness, though, high quality modern 9mm has most of the effect of .45 because the bullets have been optimized. However, a gun shooting .45 will never have the same ammo capacity as a 9mm because you can't stack a larger cylinder as efficiently as a smaller one, and .45 ammunition is fairly heavy because of the larger bullet. So the big difference is that a .45 should have about 75% of the ammo capacity.
Quote from: Fheredin on April 14, 2025, 07:55:59 AMIn all seriousness, though, high quality modern 9mm has most of the effect of .45 because the bullets have been optimized.
I've heard this a lot about "modern ammo". I haven't see any evidence that 9mm produced now vs say the '60s is any better. And if this "optimisation" is true for modern 9mm loads, why hasn't modern .45 also been "optimised"? Why are the assumed improvements in "optimised" 9mm" greater than "optimised" .45? Why does 9mm overtake .45?
Does anyone have any evidence about what specifically is done to "modern" ammo to "optimise" it?
I can give you solid data as to why M855 outperforms M193 in penetration because the rounds are actually constructed differently - the M855 has a harder tip integrated.
Quote from: Spooky on April 14, 2025, 02:56:57 AMI had to monkey with T2K 2.0 SO much to get it to work in a campaign I ran with it.
Which version are you talking about? The current Free League version, or the GDW version (d10-based)?
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 14, 2025, 10:18:32 AMQuote from: Spooky on April 14, 2025, 02:56:57 AMI had to monkey with T2K 2.0 SO much to get it to work in a campaign I ran with it.
Which version are you talking about? The current Free League version, or the GDW version (d10-based)?
2.0 D10 GDW. 2.2 switched to D20s for resolution.
Re: free league. I would NEVER play a game by a European designer, especially a remake of a classic American game by one of the quintessential American game designers and companies. It's wrong.
Man just ran my PCSACS LAPD scenario tonight. A LOT of fun...
Decemeber 1991, Los Angeles..
"2:11 in progress at the Wells Fargo Bank on West Blvd"
"This is Officer Axly. I'm just pulling in near the Wells Fargo to get some fresh donuts, but my partner called in sick today, I'm on my own!"
"Backup is on the way, but it's gridlock out there. Could be some time. Good luck Axly. Over."
Having smashed the window and unlocked the door of the Lincoln, O'Reilly put it in neutral and tried to roll it as mobile cover. Unfortunately for him the wheels were oriented right and the car rolled in the opposite direction to what he had intended, exposing him instead of providing cover.
Officer Axly moved between cars and engaged O'Reilly while dodging the automatic fire from the bandit's Ingram MAC-10 in .45 ACP. Axly expended 8 rounds to cover himself and force O'Reilly to duck for cover. He then moved laterally to get a good shot and put 3x 9mm bullets into O'Reilly's lower body. O'Reilly was incapacitated and became unconscious.
Axley cuffed him to the Lincoln's steering wheel and went to get his donut order. Upon returning and in between chews he called in an ambulance. The ambulance arrived before O'Reilly bled out.
O'Reilly recovered in 25 days at Cedars-Sinai then had his court date. The judge sentenced him to 20 years minimum for bank robbery, attempted murder of a police officer, vandalism, grand theft auto and discharging an unregistered automatic weapon in a public place.
He's due to be released in 2011.
Officer Axly received a medal for bravery and returned home to his wife and mother in law.
Axly VPs: 5, O'Reilly VPs: 0
(https://i.postimg.cc/sg6b5Qxj/cop-2.png)
From what I know playing vidya, you often want more powerful ammunition over a weak gun that just sprays thin bullets, but your ability to aim does factor into this.
Quote from: Spooky on April 14, 2025, 10:45:10 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on April 14, 2025, 10:18:32 AMQuote from: Spooky on April 14, 2025, 02:56:57 AMI had to monkey with T2K 2.0 SO much to get it to work in a campaign I ran with it.
Which version are you talking about? The current Free League version, or the GDW version (d10-based)?
2.0 D10 GDW. 2.2 switched to D20s for resolution.
Re: free league. I would NEVER play a game by a European designer, especially a remake of a classic American game by one of the quintessential American game designers and companies. It's wrong.
The mechanics are toned down but still usable and the playing tiles are beautiful. The rulebooks are somewhat disappointing in quality but it's a package deal. Twilight 2k really should be crunchier, though. I actually did do an Amazon return on Free League's Forbidden Lands. Beautiful box with relatively nothing in it. People were talking like it was the next D&D so I picked it up cheap, opened it, and was so disappointed that I asked if I could send it back and they said yes. A map with stickers? Fully narrative? Everyone told me it had amazing survival and crafting rules, but you had to get an expansion just to get a few lines of rules for dealing with snow. Very, very disappointed with that one. Probably the most hyped RPG that let me down. I don't think I've ever returned any other RPG before.
Quote from: Spooky on April 14, 2025, 10:45:10 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on April 14, 2025, 10:18:32 AMQuote from: Spooky on April 14, 2025, 02:56:57 AMI had to monkey with T2K 2.0 SO much to get it to work in a campaign I ran with it.
Which version are you talking about? The current Free League version, or the GDW version (d10-based)?
2.0 D10 GDW. 2.2 switched to D20s for resolution.
Re: free league. I would NEVER play a game by a European designer, especially a remake of a classic American game by one of the quintessential American game designers and companies. It's wrong.
I have the Free League version and a few of its expansion. It's got some nice stuff in it, particularly the new material about fighting after the war in Sweden, so here the Euro designer part is likely a benefit. I don't see the wrongness in it that you do, but to each their own.
Quote from: Spooky on April 14, 2025, 10:03:51 AMQuote from: Fheredin on April 14, 2025, 07:55:59 AMIn all seriousness, though, high quality modern 9mm has most of the effect of .45 because the bullets have been optimized.
I've heard this a lot about "modern ammo". I haven't see any evidence that 9mm produced now vs say the '60s is any better. And if this "optimisation" is true for modern 9mm loads, why hasn't modern .45 also been "optimised"? Why are the assumed improvements in "optimised" 9mm" greater than "optimised" .45? Why does 9mm overtake .45?
Does anyone have any evidence about what specifically is done to "modern" ammo to "optimise" it?
I can give you solid data as to why M855 outperforms M193 in penetration because the rounds are actually constructed differently - the M855 has a harder tip integrated.
I never said 9mm outperforms .45 because that would overstate things. But what has happened is that because 9mm is a widely used self-defense and law enforcement round, it has seen a lot of research, and hollow point performance for higher end 9mm rounds are quite comparable to the equivalent .45 ACP.
Lucky Gunner actually has tested that stuff out. (https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm) I advise comparing within a brand if possible.
The bottom line is that 9mm has comparable penetration, good expansion, and usually slightly higher muzzle velocity, so there really isn't that much difference in total energy. .45 ACP can expand more because it is a physically larger bullet, so it arguably still has slightly better stopping power, but this is typically not worth the ammunition capacity tradeoff when no handgun will actually have good stopping power.
That's why there is 10mm, has basically the ammo capacity of 9mm but hits much harder than the .45
Quote from: JeremyR on April 14, 2025, 08:07:57 PMThat's why there is 10mm, has basically the ammo capacity of 9mm but hits much harder than the .45
That's pure government propaganda and you know it. 45ACP has been ordained by God Himself as the superior auto cartridge, no matter what the 10mm aficionados say.
In all honesty I don't like the 10mm I have for fun shooting, but the massively increased ammo capacity over my 1911 makes it my night defense weapon. Plus it was free so that's even better.
^ Love it. 10mm sounds like a commie plot to me too.
Quote from: D-ko on April 14, 2025, 11:10:09 AMQuote from: Spooky on April 14, 2025, 10:45:10 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on April 14, 2025, 10:18:32 AMQuote from: Spooky on April 14, 2025, 02:56:57 AMI had to monkey with T2K 2.0 SO much to get it to work in a campaign I ran with it.
Which version are you talking about? The current Free League version, or the GDW version (d10-based)?
2.0 D10 GDW. 2.2 switched to D20s for resolution.
Re: free league. I would NEVER play a game by a European designer, especially a remake of a classic American game by one of the quintessential American game designers and companies. It's wrong.
The mechanics are toned down but still usable and the playing tiles are beautiful. The rulebooks are somewhat disappointing in quality but it's a package deal. Twilight 2k really should be crunchier, though. I actually did do an Amazon return on Free League's Forbidden Lands. Beautiful box with relatively nothing in it. People were talking like it was the next D&D so I picked it up cheap, opened it, and was so disappointed that I asked if I could send it back and they said yes. A map with stickers? Fully narrative? Everyone told me it had amazing survival and crafting rules, but you had to get an expansion just to get a few lines of rules for dealing with snow. Very, very disappointed with that one. Probably the most hyped RPG that let me down. I don't think I've ever returned any other RPG before.
I don't know why I hate free league more - euroness or modernity?