What's the smallest RPG rulebook, in terms of pagecount, that you'd think would be workable enough for you to purchase?
What's the largest?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048426What's the smallest RPG rulebook, in terms of pagecount, that you'd think would be workable enough for you to purchase?
What's the largest?
I've bought Mini-6 at 36 pages and Pathfinder Core Rulebook at 575 pages. The latter is unpleasantly big. I'd probably buy a 28 page rulebook and would tend to avoid any over about 350-400 pages.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048426What's the smallest RPG rulebook, in terms of pagecount, that you'd think would be workable enough for you to purchase?
What's the largest?
Well the largest would be Hero System 5th edition. But it primarily a reference and catalog of abilities that the system use so I am OK with that. The nuts and bolts rules are fairly short and straight forward to understand.
The smallest I don't know, what I don't want to do is have to work out all my own "stuff". If I have to come up with stats for spells along with orcs, dragons, giants, etc, I might as well write my own RPG at that point. For me Fantasy Age suffered a lot due to its skimpy monster section and near lack of magical items. I think at a minimum a fantasy RPG should cover the same range of material as B/X D&D or OD&D. With sci-fi RPGs cover what Traveller covers, with Horror cover what Call of Cthulu covers.
Seems like all the games I actually like are around the 70-100 page range; SW 1st edition is probably the longest at 130+, but that includes a bunch of templates and an adventure. Blueholme is only 55 pages and it's complete. Holmes D&D itself is what, 48 pages? Still a complete game. My first edition Ghostbusters training manual is 24 pages and you don't need anything else to play, really. So, I guess it "depends", but the better the writing, the shorter it can be and still be a good game.
On the flip side, the aforementioned Pathfinder is a monstrosity. I just sold my set because 1) I never played it and 2) it took up way too much shelf space. Other games I recently got rid of include Numenera and The Strange, both gigantic books that look really nice but fuck around with needless exposition. The D&D Cyclopedia is marginally shorter than any of these, but even at 300 pages it still doesn't seem too big, while I feel like I'm wasting my time reading The One Ring which isn't much bigger. I'd say 256-300 page max for me, but that's purely dependent on what the rulebook contains.
The largest I've ever bought would be Hero System Sixth Edition, which comes out to just shy of 800 pages across the two volumes. I find I prefer 5ER's presentation and level of detail, though; 6E is just a bit too bloated with white space and art and overdetailed, although some of the gamemastering advice is a nice addition.
The smallest ... probably the 16-page (smaller-than-digest-sized, at that) summary of the SAGA Rules System that came with the standalone Fate Decks they sold.
Hero System 6th is the maximum I'd go for. Though it would need one serious fucking sales pitch for me to consider it today (Arduin Eternal anyone?).
The smallest is 1 page. If the idea is gold, i will gladly pay for it.
I know I've skipped on buying an RPG when I looked at it's pagecount and saw it was 48 pages. I've bought things in that page count range, but when it gets to that pamphlet range I get reluctant to drop money on the stuff.
I can't think of any RPG I've skipped over purely because it had too high a pagecount.
I'd probably not buy a rule book with anything under 70 pages (although I have done in the past). If I want a game, I'd like it to be, not only complete, but have enough info that I can get my teeth into.
As for max page count... Again, I tend to like stuff to be well under 300 pages. Because I'm old and lazy, and don't want to wade through a load of fluff in order to play a game. That said, I have broken that rule as well. It depends on the game I suppose...
Quote from: Gabriel2;1048466I know I've skipped on buying an RPG when I looked at it's pagecount and saw it was 48 pages. I've bought things in that page count range, but when it gets to that pamphlet range I get reluctant to drop money on the stuff.
Yep...
Quote from: Brad;1048457Seems like all the games I actually like are around the 70-100 page range; SW 1st edition is probably the longest at 130+, but that includes a bunch of templates and an adventure. Blueholme is only 55 pages and it's complete. Holmes D&D itself is what, 48 pages? Still a complete game. My first edition Ghostbusters training manual is 24 pages and you don't need anything else to play, really. So, I guess it "depends", but the better the writing, the shorter it can be and still be a good game.
On the flip side, the aforementioned Pathfinder is a monstrosity. I just sold my set because 1) I never played it and 2) it took up way too much shelf space. Other games I recently got rid of include Numenera and The Strange, both gigantic books that look really nice but fuck around with needless exposition. The D&D Cyclopedia is marginally shorter than any of these, but even at 300 pages it still doesn't seem too big, while I feel like I'm wasting my time reading The One Ring which isn't much bigger. I'd say 256-300 page max for me, but that's purely dependent on what the rulebook contains.
Brad captures the essence of my thoughts on the matter. There is no minimum or maximum in theory, but in practicality it comes down to the fact that a game has to be long enough to be complete, but not so long as to be boring.
I suppose that cost also comes into play. I really don't want to pay $100 for a rulebook no matter how awesome and how padded the page count.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048426What's the smallest RPG rulebook, in terms of pagecount, that you'd think would be workable enough for you to purchase?
What's the largest?
For printed books, 128 pages is the minimum for me. 260 pages is the maximum.
It obviously depends on the size of the book. A 6x9 book is obviously going to have more pages in it than a standard sized book. Anyhoo, the absolute minimum page count for me in a standard sized book is 64 pages. Any less, and I won't bother. Slim is good, but there has to be some meat on the bones. As for maximum size, without setting 200 pages. With setting, 400 pages.
Preference wise, I'd prefer something around 128 pages without setting, or 256 pages with.
128 pages minimum in general. Something smaller would have to be extra special. Max.. not sure I have one - Pathfinder and Hero 6th were both quite comfortable for me.
I had a look through the games I've bought and the smallest (excluding the old 16 page BRP booklet that came with many Chaosium games) was The Morrow Project at 64 pages. The largest is HERO 5th ed revised at 592 pages.
These are soft limits as I have bought larger, but 256 pages is about as large as I like, with 312 being about my upper limit for comfort. Larger than that and I find they have physical and mental limitations, I'd much rather flip through a set of two or three 128-256 page books with rational divisions, than a single 300-500 page book.
I don't really think I have a minimum so long as it felt complete and well written. I have a hard time imagining a game book smaller than 32 pages doing that, and 128 pages is plenty to fit a whole game into. Second edition Runequest was only 112 pages.
I wouldn't dismiss a game based on it being too small although smaller than 64 pages and it might not attract my attention without an outside force pointing me to it (reviews, word of mouth etc).
Paperback, 96 pages minimum
For Hardback, at least 150 pages
I buy physical books for the look, so I'll go hardback until about 700ish, that starts getting too big. But for most games, I would want glossy pages, which I've only seen Pinnacle, Paizo, and WotC do.
For PDFs, yeah still about a 96 pages minimum. I may get smaller ones with a bundle.
The books from which I have gained the most enjoyment have generally been in the 128 to 256 range. There are probably a few outliers, especially on the upper end if the book is mostly supporting material. If it's a pure reference book, such as a Monster Manual, then it doesn't matter, as long as the content quality and price are inline with the size.
I could see a D&D type game being good at under 100 pages. I can't see a book being more than about 250 pages of rules (not counting setting).
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048759I can't see a book being more than about 250 pages of rules (not counting setting).
That's the deciding factor for me. I'll put up with a gigantic book if it is for a setting that I want to emulate and that book is mostly setting.
Generally speaking, I prefer important rules ("rules" themselves specifically, not worked examples or catalogue content) to be an easily-memorized core under 50 to 100 pages.
Practically speaking, I don't think I have any actual min- or max- tolerance by overall page count; I love GURPS which naturally has a hefty Basic Set alone, not counting the massive number of genre books and catalogues, but most of it is never referenced during play except for those things I've specifically and deliberately chosen to plug in to a given campaign (which means it should be pretty damn important), and I'm known to tweak/houserule and adjudicate like crazy for things I think should work differently, or needs a spot ruling, or things I simply don't care to look up at the time (I refuse to open books during play, as GM; familiarity helps, here, as does prepping your own material for the game you're running, same as any game).
On the other side of the spectrum I've also enjoyed playing Heroquest 2 and Over the Edge/WaRP (and even Risus and GURPS Ultralite), the rules of which can be summarized effortlessly via spoken word in under a minute and a couple of which have no more than a handful of pages overall anyway.
To me, it's more about what's sandwiched in those pages than the pages themselves. Mythras and Reign are pretty big but very straight-forward to digest and remember; Fate Core has a ridiculously short list of actual rules despite the bloated size of the core book, but it's a hell of a hurdle to digest and requires a lot of attention and consideration and mental overhead during play. Obviously all IMO, I only offer these as personal examples to illustrate my point.
It depends on what is in the book. There isn't really a minimum or maximum.
A one-line idea that I don't already have but want to use after I read it could be quite valuable. (I'm currently playtesting a game-changing idea that could be expressed in one sentence, or one mathematical formula.)
Length isn't really an issue. (I was happy to buy the GURPS 4e Basic Set at 576 pages, because I was sure it had lots of stuff I would use, and I still don't regret that I did, even though I only really use a pretty small fraction of it for my GURPS house rule mélange.) I have bought several RPG systems that I don't use at all and most likely never will, just to check them out and see if there are maybe some ideas or tidbits I can adapt for use in the games I do run.
I don't know if I have a hard and fast guide. I've bought and played a few indie games that were only 25 - 40 pages and had a blast. I also own Pathfinder and HERO and Numenera and those are some beasts of page count.
I guess it really depends on what's on those pages. If I can get something more than "the GM and player both roll a d6, whoever rolls higher wins the check" I'm likely to check it out. Although, these days I tend to be drawn more toward the briefer side when it comes to the games I'm interested in so if it's more than 200ish pages I'm expecting a lot of useful info, tools, etc and not have to shell out for supplements to fill out the line.
It might not apply since it is miniatures gaming but I've been really digging the new approach to Warhammer 40k and Age of Sigmar where the main rules are pretty light and the rest is attached to specific units. It means I can ignore the vast bulk of the "rules" I don't care about (all the abilities of the different armies) and just focus on what matters. This was a big part of what I liked about DMing D&D 4e.
I'm really the only person who bought Twerps? :confused:
Longest is probably 5e, not even counting the campaign books.
I like books of just a few pages up to a maximum of a couple of hundred at tops, depending on what that page count is made up of. If it's lots of crunchy rules and tables I'm less interested. If it's lots of irrelevant guff/fluff background history that's rarely going to be of use in the actual game, then my eyes glaze over. If there are plenty of adventures and plot seeds and stuff to do then I'm more interested.
Strangely, I was nearly sucked into picking up a copy of Dungeon Crawl Classics recently. I read the reviews and saw it was a huge book. I watched some actual plays. I still nearly hit the "Buy it now" button. It looks such good value as a hardcover book. But then I realized all I really liked about it was the "character funnel" - which realistically you could do in any D&D/OSR type rpg of which I have plenty with far lower page counts. So, I've managed to stave off that craving.
Now I'm wondering whether to pick up Warhammer 4 when it's out. 320 pages sounds too big, but probably half of that is careers and hopefully some useful adventure-stuff. Or maybe just go for the starter set...although it isn't entirely clear what is exactly in the box and how much of the actual rules you get.
Well I personally love the form factor of the rulebooks in the old TSR boxed sets. Those were generally what? 32-64 pages? I don't know if I'd go out of my way to buy a rulebook that was shorter than that. It would all depend on the presentation. I'd probably have a look at the pdf first.
As for the biggest, my two biggest books are my Deadlands combined collectors edition (revised edition) and my Talislanta 4th edition books. And the latter is just too bulky and unwieldy for use at the tabletop IMNSHO. That didn't stop me from buying it then, but it would be a much tougher sell for me these days. My sweet spot is my All for One: Regime Diabolique and Savage Worlds core books. Those feel compact enough to travel and not weigh me down, but complete at the same time. Though if I had it my way, the digest/graphic novel format would be the industry standard.
Tom
I think the smallest main rulebook I'd buy would be something like the old PHB from AD&D 2nd edition. The largest would be the leather bound monstrosity that is Exalted 3rd edition. Anything smaller or larger would be purchased in digital format only.
The Biggest I ever bought was the "Stars without number" Omnibus edition:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNgreLeTRnw
I reviewed it as above. Comes in over 1000 pages I believe.. a true monster of a book.
Dunno about smallest PRINT copy of a book, depends r eally..
I have bought stuff only 20 odd pages, usually system agnostic stuff that I find useful and pay a couple of bucks for, but they are PDF only.
I guess my shortest would be Gnomemurdered, but that was a comedic game.
This is a weird question. I have no idea what the maximum is. If you can keep adding useful information keep making it bigger. For smallest, it's going to depend on price. I'd be unlikely to be interested in a 10 page ruleset, but if you've done something really interesting and you're only charging 50c, there's a decent chance I'd give you $1.
Well, I guess the notion of a maximum tends from my experience that past a certain size, rulebooks tend to have a rapidly increasing percentage chance of being bad. Because if you're at 500 pages, odds are that a really big chunk of that is endless lists of spells, feats, or skills.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1050116Well, I guess the notion of a maximum tends from my experience that past a certain size, rulebooks tend to have a rapidly increasing percentage chance of being bad. Because if you're at 500 pages, odds are that a really big chunk of that is endless lists of spells, feats, or skills.
I can understand a maximum size, and realise that my willingness to accept large volumes is far from universal.
Minimum is weird though, as it is tied very strongly to price. I'd accept a much smaller offering for 10c than I would at $10.
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;1049770This is a weird question. I have no idea what the maximum is. If you can keep adding useful information keep making it bigger.
From personal experience, the 1000+ page SWN Omnibus is VERY impractical to have at the table.
I got it as much as it seemed like a fun idea and looks cool on my shelf as anything else.
Still, I DO use it as a reference material outside of a gaming night.
But really, it's better to be broken up into separate books.
I think personally, the original Pathfinder core rules book (500-ish pages?) is about as much pages as I'd want in one book, after that it's just too much.
Quote from: danskmacabre;1050211From personal experience, the 1000+ page SWN Omnibus is VERY impractical to have at the table.
I got it as much as it seemed like a fun idea and looks cool on my shelf as anything else.
Still, I DO use it as a reference material outside of a gaming night.
But really, it's better to be broken up into separate books.
I think personally, the original Pathfinder core rules book (500-ish pages?) is about as much pages as I'd want in one book, after that it's just too much.
There's certainly a point where I'd prefer to see a giant volume split into multiple physical items. But, for the purposes of "what size rulebook is acceptable," I would consider (for example) GURPS 4E to be the size of Vol 1 + Vol 2. Similarly, Rolemaster is Spell Law + Arms and Claw Law + Character and Campaign Law, and 1E AD&D is PHB + DMG. These are all minimum requirements for a complete game, and coming in multiple books or booklets doesn't alter that fact.
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;1050236and coming in multiple books or booklets doesn't alter that fact.
Actually it does if those volumes are intelligently divided. For games that divide player stuff from GM stuff, then players only need one book. In the case of AD&D that was one 128 page book vs everybody having to buy the combined 474 of the PH+DMG+MM.
Even if you want to own all three, by spliting them, you don't have to lug all three around with you when you just need the stuff that is in one of them.
So yes multiple smaller books vs one giant tome, does make a difference.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1050239Actually it does if those volumes are intelligently divided. For games that divide player stuff from GM stuff, then players only need one book. In the case of AD&D that was one 128 page book vs everybody having to buy the combined 474 of the PH+DMG+MM.
Even if you want to own all three, by spliting them, you don't have to lug all three around with you when you just need the stuff that is in one of them.
So yes multiple smaller books vs one giant tome, does make a difference.
Let me rephrase.
Yes, the number of volumes creates real, practical differences. I even have preferences based on those differences. I would have preferred GURPS 4E to be a single volume rather than two. I prefer the RM2/RMSS three-volume system to the modular, small pamphlet version of RM1 or the five-volume version in RMFRP. I don't see any benefit in folding the 1E PHB into the 1E DMG, but I do think the Rules Cylopedia is a more useful reference than the BECMI boxed sets.
However ...
I have never made a decision to purchase or not purchase a game based on the publisher's decision about how many volumes to break the core rules into. Ergo, for the purposes of this thread, the number of volumes doesn't have any practical, real-world effect on my answer to the question "largest main rulebook I'd buy".
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;1050236............... These are all minimum requirements for a complete game, and coming in multiple books or booklets doesn't alter that fact.
I was answering the question more literally.. meaning literally 1 physical book.
But yeah, I like that for example Rolemaster split books up into Spell law, Arms law, etc etc...
Quote from: danskmacabre;1050241I was answering the question more literally.. meaning literally 1 physical book.
But yeah, I like that for example Rolemaster split books up into Spell law, Arms law, etc etc...
I was as well, and while it may seem trivial, I have passed on games due to their physical layout. These days giant tomes turn me off. The other side of that is games that look to be splat book heavy do as well, so putting your games 800 pages into 12 thin books is not likely to win me over either.
min 40
max 300
Obviously, regardless of pagecount, you can certainly say that the minimum needed is 1 book, and in my experience in a lot of cases having a single complete book is in some ways better than having a whole bunch of books, for certain games.