I like how the evidence of "objectionable radical leftist" rpg content turned this topic from argument to how game-worthy such a setting premise would be. I like it even better when I read it on my Apple products. Keep up the gaming talk, guys!

This might get lost in the flurry, but I wanted to say that a game of Comrades will never end badly for the revolutionaries as a whole. SJWs live in a fantasy land in their real lives, constantly struggling against The Man and such.
They'll play Comrades and win and utopia will begin. Their inevitable loss in the real world won't happen in a make-believe one they control.

After that, they'll be invigorated to pick up their virtual torches once again, assured their game has shown them the way. It will again, fail. Then back to their safe space of righteous gaming to do it right this time. Back out. Fail. Roll dice. Out. Fail. And so on.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093569I'd play in that setting! It wouldn't need to be a Communist Revolution, because during bloody chaotic revolutions, it barely matters what Red vs. Blue even believe because that's secondary to all the intrigue. Also, love the idea of cyberpunk ethos in dieselpunk!

I'd like something akin to Stars Without Number as the system. Or maybe Savage Worlds.

I recently got the Spire RPG and it's exactly this vibe. You play as drow revolutionaries oppressed by high elves in a massive tower-city. It's a really interesting setting and has cool mechanics. They're a little like AW and such insofar as the dice decide non-binary results, but there's no meta-currency I've seen.

The way you advance is to cause changes...good or bad...to Spire. Bigger changes net bigger rewards, most of which are really cool. There's one where you literally turn into an idea, be it a mantra or song or such, living in the heads of those who believe in your cause. There's even "drow Batman" where you pray to the small gods in your gear to help you do vigilante things.

The setting itself is awesome and evocative and despite the potential "abuse" of the topic by any political side (oppressed dark-skinned people) I haven't seen any overt and/or annoying political drivel.

I really enjoy how you have five "stats" to convey harm to you:

Blood: physical
Mind: mental/will
Silver: fiscal durability
Shadow: keeping your actions clandestine
Reputation: social currency/standing

When you get his with stress, it goes to one of the above, eventually giving a penalty known as "fallout". Blood fallout might be "bleeding", Silver might be "in debt", severe Shadow fallout might be "the Solar Guard kicked in your apartment door". It's pretty cool.

Those who like narrative games with a more trad vibe might enjoy it. The biggest draw is the setting, though. Drider midwives and hyena-priests are just awesome.

Quote from: Zirunel;1093578I agree. In fact, if you went Reilly Ace of Spies you could play as anti-Bolsheviks if you like. It's all good . Times of flux and chaos just seem to be a naturally good fit for rpg settings, and the Russian revolution seems a particularly good one. I think it's a great idea. The excruciating and sometimes miniscule ideological differences could even be played for comedic effect.

I'm wondering how tied to Marxist ideology the game really is in practice. Could it be used, for instance, for games set in Ireland between 1916-25, dealing with revolution and civil war? There were some socialists involved on the Irish side, of course, but they weren't the majority among nationalists. I get that the game would not be as wide open as most trad. games are, since PbtA games have 'playbooks' with limited 'moves,' and that you are going to end up playing revolutionaries, but I wonder if in practice the ideology of the revolutionaries is up for grabs, or essentially unimportant to game play.

Quote from: Fritzef;1093674I'm wondering how tied to Marxist ideology the game really is in practice. Could it be used, for instance, for games set in Ireland between 1916-25, dealing with revolution and civil war? There were some socialists involved on the Irish side, of course, but they weren't the majority among nationalists. I get that the game would not be as wide open as most trad. games are, since PbtA games have 'playbooks' with limited 'moves,' and that you are going to end up playing revolutionaries, but I wonder if in practice the ideology of the revolutionaries is up for grabs, or essentially unimportant to game play.

   Checking the DTRPG preview, it looks pretty firmly committed to the left-wing side in ideology. I'm not about to pay money for it to investigate how deeply that's woven into actual design.

I suspect that the commenters in this thread have devoted more keystrokes to Comrades than anyone except the author.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093505Do you think, just maybe, that the changes to make the new rulebook more representative has something do to with this?

No. On the contrary I think it's become actively harmful at this point and apparent that advocating for the oppressed and marginalized was never the goal in the first place. And the people pushing for this nonsense are not just lying about it but demanding to be paid for it.

So much for Communism.

Legend of the Five Rings would not benefit from including blacks and caucasians in the setting. Pursuing this goal to the exclusion of all others is why 7th Sea 2e failed despite all its awards and status as the most successful RPG #Kickstarter in history. And Tales of Gor outsells Harlem Unbound (which included the Italian ethnic slur 'dago' despite how woke it was) on #DriveThru.

Quote from: Zalman;1093522Because we're not sexist and racist. We don't look at a character in a book and immediately classify them by sex, gender, or race. We don't put everyone we meet into categories based on immutable qualities. That's the very definition of bigotry, of course.

We "identify" with the heroic nature of the character, and not with something that can only be seen through the lens of division.

That's why.

Well said.

I think this push to identify with superficial physical traits over shared beliefs and values is astoundingly poisonous. It's literally prison politics, and ironically both Nazis and SJWs advocate for it.

Quote from: Myrdin PotterDo you think, just maybe, that the changes to make the new rulebook more representative has something do to with this?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093685No. On the contrary I think it's become actively harmful at this point and apparent that advocating for the oppressed and marginalized was never the goal in the first place. And the people pushing for this nonsense are not just lying about it but demanding to be paid for it.

So much for Communism.

Legend of the Five Rings would not benefit from including blacks and caucasians in the setting. Pursuing this goal to the exclusion of all others is why 7th Sea 2e failed despite all its awards and status as the most successful RPG #Kickstarter in history. And Tales of Gor outsells Harlem Unbound (which included the Italian ethnic slur 'dago' despite how woke it was) on #DriveThru.

I'm not sure what the specific subject is. Are you saying that the D&D 5th edition core books (PH+DMG+MM) are actively harmful because of their diversity? Or are you only talking about other books and/or RPGs? I'm not very familiar with new work in L5R or 7th Sea 2e, or Tales of Gor, so I'm not sure about our point of difference.

I didn't feel like the D&D 5e core books were harmful. It seems to me that they're working out quite positively.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093685Pursuing this goal to the exclusion of all others is why 7th Sea 2e failed despite all its awards and status as the most successful RPG #Kickstarter in history.

Is that why it failed? I thought the biggest issue with 7S2e was the heavily narrative ruleset, not the setting drift.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1093627I like how the evidence of "objectionable radical leftist" rpg content turned this topic from argument to how game-worthy such a setting premise would be.

It's like how I love post-apocalyptic settings, but I'm really extremely aware of how horrifying it would be to actually live in such a setting.

Except for Rifts. That would probably be cool.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093741It's like how I love post-apocalyptic settings, but I'm really extremely aware of how horrifying it would be to actually live in such a setting.

Except for Rifts. That would probably be cool.

I actually thunk a thought that everyone in Rifts is crazy because the world is so fucked up that living there would unhinge anyone.

Setting aside the actual crazies, and people willing to trade their humanity to become a chemical superman or a metal frankenstien, you have people pretending to be cowboys, putting skulls on their power armor and mechs, putting wolf or monster heads on their mechs, or make cyborgs that look like dragons. Why? This shit isn't practical.
Because one day you're a farmer, trying to eke out a living on the outskirts of what passes for civilization in this world, when one day a tentacled horror or a pack of vampires or a demented demon comes sauntering into your village and, if you're very lucky, kills and eats everyone. If you're unlucky, they take everyone to become slaves for labor or drain your blood or suck out your life essence to power their otherworldly magic.

Ghost haunt the ruins of dead cities, mad cyborgs lurk in hidden facilities performing experiments on people's brains, mad AIs lurk in hidden facilities (there's a trend there...) plotting to take over the world, vampires are a constant menace near old Mexico, monsters raid coastal towns for slaves.

Dressing up and talking like a cowboy cliche is probably a 1 on the 1-10 Rifts scale of bizzare.

Quote from: jhkim;1093692I'm not sure what the specific subject is. Are you saying that the D&D 5th edition core books (PH+DMG+MM) are actively harmful because of their diversity?

I'm saying that shallow representations included for woke cookies have a deleterious effect on the self-image of the minorities they're supposed to support, and only appeal to a very specific set of aggressively obnoxious left wing nutballs who demand constant validation from their entertainment products and lash out when they don't get it. These are the folks who went after Mark Diaz Truman (a latino designer) for how latino characters are represented in Cartel, and Mike Pondsmith (a black designer) over how black characters are represented in Cyberpunk. They do not care about intent, context, or enabling minorities to represent themselves, only that a thing is represented in a way they can interpret as offensive.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1093693Is that why it failed? I thought the biggest issue with 7S2e was the heavily narrative ruleset, not the setting drift.

For it to have been due to setting drift would have meant they got past the internal problems to continue publishing in the first place. The failure was not due to the game's lack of popularity, but in the company's mismanagement, and it's one of the best examples of * Get * Woke * Go * Broke I've seen to date. To me 7s2e is proof that it simply isn't possible to use existing cultures as inspiration and completely avoid offense, and trying to do so by paying [STRIKE]extortionists[/STRIKE] consultants will ruin you.

Related, the Filipino designer Tobie Abad who worked on Pirate Nations (silver ENnie for 'Best Supplement') had their successfully funded #Kickstarter unceremoniously cancelled after being accused of 'abuse' on #Facebook, and effectively shut down their #Patreon on June 2nd of this year. Sadly I think it unlikely we will ever see them back.

Again, these people do not give a fuck about minorities or even their own minority status should they happen to have such (and if not they often manufacture it) beyond how woke it makes them look. And this sort of unhealthy social environment is at least as responsible for the increase in anxiety and suicide we're seeing as deliberate bullying is.

I mean shitlords are a problem too, but at least you know where you stand with them.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093760I'm saying that shallow representations included for woke cookies have a deleterious effect on the self-image of the minorities they're supposed to support, and only appeal to a very specific set of aggressively obnoxious left wing nutballs who demand constant validation from their entertainment products and lash out when they don't get it. These are the folks who went after Mark Diaz Truman (a latino designer) for how latino characters are represented in Cartel, and Mike Pondsmith (a black designer) over how black characters are represented in Cyberpunk. They do not care about intent, context, or enabling minorities to represent themselves, only that a thing is represented in a way they can interpret as offensive.



For it to have been due to setting drift would have meant they got past the internal problems to continue publishing in the first place. The failure was not due to the game's lack of popularity, but in the company's mismanagement, and it's one of the best examples of * Get * Woke * Go * Broke I've seen to date. To me 7s2e is proof that it simply isn't possible to use existing cultures as inspiration and completely avoid offense, and trying to do so by paying [STRIKE]extortionists[/STRIKE] consultants will ruin you.

Related, the Filipino designer Tobie Abad who worked on Pirate Nations (silver ENnie for 'Best Supplement') had their successfully funded #Kickstarter unceremoniously cancelled after being accused of 'abuse' on #Facebook, and effectively shut down their #Patreon on June 2nd of this year. Sadly I think it unlikely we will ever see them back.

Again, these people do not give a fuck about minorities or even their own minority status should they happen to have such (and if not they often manufacture it) beyond how woke it makes them look. And this sort of unhealthy social environment is at least as responsible for the increase in anxiety and suicide we're seeing as deliberate bullying is.

I mean shitlords are a problem too, but at least you know where you stand with them.

Damn, that is a shame. I would have backed this in a heartbeat if I had known about it. I wonder what the guy said that riled people up so much? Not that it matters, I can separate art and artist and really do not give a crap about people who take offence on behalf of others.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093760I'm saying that shallow representations included for woke cookies have a deleterious effect on the self-image of the minorities they're supposed to support, and only appeal to a very specific set of aggressively obnoxious left wing nutballs who demand constant validation from their entertainment products and lash out when they don't get it. These are the folks who went after Mark Diaz Truman (a latino designer) for how latino characters are represented in Cartel, and Mike Pondsmith (a black designer) over how black characters are represented in Cyberpunk. They do not care about intent, context, or enabling minorities to represent themselves, only that a thing is represented in a way they can interpret as offensive.



For it to have been due to setting drift would have meant they got past the internal problems to continue publishing in the first place. The failure was not due to the game's lack of popularity, but in the company's mismanagement, and it's one of the best examples of * Get * Woke * Go * Broke I've seen to date. To me 7s2e is proof that it simply isn't possible to use existing cultures as inspiration and completely avoid offense, and trying to do so by paying [STRIKE]extortionists[/STRIKE] consultants will ruin you.

Related, the Filipino designer Tobie Abad who worked on Pirate Nations (silver ENnie for 'Best Supplement') had their successfully funded #Kickstarter unceremoniously cancelled after being accused of 'abuse' on #Facebook, and effectively shut down their #Patreon on June 2nd of this year. Sadly I think it unlikely we will ever see them back.

Again, these people do not give a fuck about minorities or even their own minority status should they happen to have such (and if not they often manufacture it) beyond how woke it makes them look. And this sort of unhealthy social environment is at least as responsible for the increase in anxiety and suicide we're seeing as deliberate bullying is.

I mean shitlords are a problem too, but at least you know where you stand with them.

OK, I'll have to take your word for it on 7S2e. I didn't read much more than the mechanics before I closed the pdf and haven't reopened it since. Even my friend that loves all things 7S felt that the new rules were shit, but I don't recall him saying much of anything about the changes to the fluff.

Quote from: jhkimI'm not sure what the specific subject is. Are you saying that the D&D 5th edition core books (PH+DMG+MM) are actively harmful because of their diversity?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093760I'm saying that shallow representations included for woke cookies have a deleterious effect on the self-image of the minorities they're supposed to support, and only appeal to a very specific set of aggressively obnoxious left wing nutballs who demand constant validation from their entertainment products and lash out when they don't get it. These are the folks who went after Mark Diaz Truman (a latino designer) for how latino characters are represented in Cartel, and Mike Pondsmith (a black designer) over how black characters are represented in Cyberpunk. They do not care about intent, context, or enabling minorities to represent themselves, only that a thing is represented in a way they can interpret as offensive.

OK, but this dodges the question about what are shallow representations for woke cookies. Without mind-reading the creators, how can I tell what these are? Can you give some examples? Do you think the 5E core books examples of this?

From my point of view, there exist gamers with a variety of tastes. There exist conservative gamers, moderate gamers, liberal gamers, and plenty of other variations. Some gamers like very woke content - and it's fine to make games for them. It's also fine to make games for conservative gamers.

I'm on board for shutting down lying and irresponsible gossip-mongering in social media. But as far as bashing on published games for being woke, I'd want to know what games are considered cases of this.