I've read through this entire thing and the whole idea that the RPG community hasn't been inclusive is a load of fetid dingo kidneys.

I've been gaming since '81, and I can tell you for a FACT that the RPG sub-culture has always been inclusive. I've met gamers of all walks of life: gay, black, Asian, women, etc.

back in the day, nobody gave two shits what your ethnicity, your politics, your religion, your whatever was in the real world. All that mattered was 1. do you like to play RPGs? and 2. are you a dick?

Because being a dick knows no boundaries.

So, IMO fuck the SJW revisionist history douche-nozzles. They have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. They came into a sub-culture to change it first and be gamers second, while the whole gaming sub-culture is by it's nature largely inclusive. These fuckwads want to go on a fucking witch hunt on individual gaming groups. I'm not going to exclude someone based on if they're gay, for example. BUT, if you're gay and a complete fucking asshole, you're getting the boot. Playing the fag card does not give you a pass for piss-poor behavior.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Snip

The more people involved in our hobby the better for the game.

Agreed, as long as we're defining "our" hobby as the hobby of playing RPGs.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Everyone can add their own personal experience and it will be a net positive.

"Diversity is our strength" Nope, if person X is a total douche at the table it's not a net possitive, but I'm sure you didn't really meant it like that so whatever.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Each individual group has their right to handle the material they wish to face and that's fine.

Yet you're going to contradict yourself at the end

Quote from: fixable;1097972There should be less barriers for entry into our hobby simply because more people should be involved in our hobby.

What "barriers" are those and can you prove they exist?
And no, there should be as many or as few people as people enjoy playing RPGs and have the time to do so.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Certain people may not like some of the people joining the hobby, but they have no control over that and they shouldn't.

And certain people may not like those of us who got here first, but they have no control over that and they shouldn't.

Quote from: fixable;1097972They can choose to prevent those people from their personal games, but they can't and shouldn't prevent anyone from joining our hobby.

I wish you were more specific as to who "those people" are.

I think that figthing against puritanical, moralistic, hollierthanthou assholes and their wishes to change our hobby to suit their propaganda is a good thing. Notice I don't mention political sides because I still remember the satanic panic and have noticed we're in a different moral panic. We just changed the brand of authoritarian fucks and they have a different villain to fight this time.

Funny how it always ends up being peaceful and inclusive nerds the target for these douchebags.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Snip

Who else has any authority to tell an author what is appropriate for their adventure?

And we get to the part where you contradict yourself.

So, do we have "the right to handle the material we wish to face"? or not?

We also have freedom of expresion (until they manage to remove that too) and can criticize whatever we wish to.

And we still live in a mostly free market world, so until that changes we can vote with our wallets. And combining our free speech with this means we can also tell others not to buy X.

And no author, from whataver political side, religion, nationality, sex, sexuality or race has the privilege of this not being done to their works. At least until they manage to instate the 0.5% of the population as the new aristocrats or they manage to enshrine a regresive theocracy instead of democracy.

Quote from: fixable;1097971I apologize. It wasn't a well formed response and I'd rather respond with more thought. Unfortunately I've been busy so I'll try to approach this later.

OK, you wait two weeks and then want to respond instead of dropping the subject?

I am living rent free inside of your head.......

Quote from: fixable;1097972Ok. So what determines the difference from expressing one's views and 'virtue signaling'. To me it sounds like a judgement call. Who gets to determine that the expression of moral values is not to discuss the topic at hand and instead only demonstrate moral superiority? What if the person is actually genuine?

Common sense determines it because genuine people don't have to make a big production out of their beliefs. This applies for both SJWs and Moral Majority members.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Sure. Whomever is reading can reach their own conclusions. So statements to this effect are subjective. That's fair enough, everyone has their own point of view, but it is only that. Every reader is going to interpret their own way.

Glad that you are in agreement with me.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Ok makes sense. These statements are the subjective views of certain people.

No, they are the definitions of the terms.

Quote from: fixable;1097972The more people involved in our hobby the better for the game. Everyone can add their own personal experience and it will be a net positive. Each individual group has their right to handle the material they wish to face and that's fine. There should be less barriers for entry into our hobby simply because more people should be involved in our hobby. Certain people may not like some of the people joining the hobby, but they have no control over that and they shouldn't. They can choose to prevent those people from their personal games, but they can't and shouldn't prevent anyone from joining our hobby.

If each individual Group can handle themselves how they wish, then why does the Nu Moral Majority insist on every group being inclusive and diverse?

I also disagree that more = better. I'd rather have some quality people who are interested in the hobby regardless of their minority status then have a bunch of people come in to the hobby just for some political reason.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Who gets to decide that? The author of the adventure. If the author decides its appropriate then so be it. The author is the one writing the adventure. If a group doesn't like it, they are free to modify the adventure to suit their needs.

Or not buy the product at all - which is what is happening to those businessesd who have got woke and gone broke.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Again, who makes that call? Who decides that an author is only including minority character for the appearance of moral superiority?

Again, common sense.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Again, who decides if the character fits in the setting? The only authority in this matter is the author of the adventure.

Context of the adventure setting itself. I would no more expect a European white male in Shogunate Era Japan then I would in Ancient Egypt, nor would I expect a Samurai wandering around with native Americans in 1500AD.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Why not?

I explained that already. Any character extraneous to the purpose of the material is needless padding. It is analogous to Herman Melville adding about a hundred pages of trivia on the whaling industry to Moby Dick.

Quote from: fixable;1097972Up to the author. Who else has any authority to tell an author what is appropriate for their adventure?

Sure, it is up to author to include token characters - but it insulting to do so because that character has no relevance to the material except as a token to virtue signal to the audience that the author is woke.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848I am the most manly among you.

It's high time to man up and prove it.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848That's what I would want to look like if I didn't love pizza so much.

Bodybuilders eat a fuckton of carbs.

Work out 6 days a week and you can love all the pizza you want.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848But being 47 it's too late.

Bullshit weak sauce excuse. Guys in wheelchairs go to the gym...and bang chicks.  

Google Bob Delmontenque to see what 80+ years old can look like.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848And I never said I was lonely. I'm alone. Not lonely.

The most manly among us would not let his cueball get in the way of dating.

Living alone is great. Sex alone is not.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848My agoraphobia and other stuff will get better when I move to a smaller town in a couple of years.

The most manly among us would take action NOW, not "a couple of years".

Also, stop being afraid of Ancient Greek marketplaces.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848Btw, is this your Aussie bodybuilder Kyle Aaron?
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl7rc-YFvA_/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

No idea. I think "Kyle Aaron" is his forum nickname because of his South Park viking hat avatar. However, he's posted excellent fitness and health advice for gamers, aka "middle aged fatasses" before so he's who I recommend PMing with because he knows our kind of scum.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097848Some bodybuilders state that Arnold had no legs. I disagree.

Arnold had legs like a tank. I saw him up close several times when I was involved with special education and special olympics pre-2000. Gregarious dude with a big smile and great with kids.

If Arnold is your idol, go walk in his steps.

Except for banging the housekeeper when your wife's pregnant. Or making bad Terminator sequels.

Skip those steps.

Quote from: jeff37923;1098042OK, you wait two weeks and then want to respond instead of dropping the subject?

I am living rent free inside of your head.......

Nope... I just thought it was courteous to respond. I apologize if I come off hard... but you are a pleasure to discuss with. I have no ill will towards you. We may have different views but I think we can relate. If I have gone too far, I apologize.

I don't really have much to comment on your responses other than I am working to understand your point of view. I think this is really an individual perception thing. Which means I can't have any qualms about how you or anyone else feels about this. I am a firm believer that a gaming group gets to decide what works for them.

I have problems understanding why there is resistance to any of this. I mean, if you have control of your game (and you should... it is your game) why the worry and concern?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1097989Agreed, as long as we're defining "our" hobby as the hobby of playing RPGs.



"Diversity is our strength" Nope, if person X is a total douche at the table it's not a net possitive, but I'm sure you didn't really meant it like that so whatever.



Yet you're going to contradict yourself at the end



What "barriers" are those and can you prove they exist?
And no, there should be as many or as few people as people enjoy playing RPGs and have the time to do so.



And certain people may not like those of us who got here first, but they have no control over that and they shouldn't.



I wish you were more specific as to who "those people" are.

I think that figthing against puritanical, moralistic, hollierthanthou assholes and their wishes to change our hobby to suit their propaganda is a good thing. Notice I don't mention political sides because I still remember the satanic panic and have noticed we're in a different moral panic. We just changed the brand of authoritarian fucks and they have a different villain to fight this time.

Funny how it always ends up being peaceful and inclusive nerds the target for these douchebags.



And we get to the part where you contradict yourself.

So, do we have "the right to handle the material we wish to face"? or not?

We also have freedom of expresion (until they manage to remove that too) and can criticize whatever we wish to.

And we still live in a mostly free market world, so until that changes we can vote with our wallets. And combining our free speech with this means we can also tell others not to buy X.

And no author, from whataver political side, religion, nationality, sex, sexuality or race has the privilege of this not being done to their works. At least until they manage to instate the 0.5% of the population as the new aristocrats or they manage to enshrine a regresive theocracy instead of democracy.

Nope. Not a contradiction. An author has the right to include whatever they deem appropriate to their adventure.

Whether a DM decides to use that content is entirely up to them. DM's alter, change, and update content of adventure modules all the time to support their own approach to the game. What DM has not adapted an adventure to suit their group and their campaign?

My point is if an adventure is written with LGBTQ characters, a DM who doesn't want that in their campaign is free to ignore that. Those who do care, get representation, those who don't can just change it to what they want. Why is this an issue?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1098048It's high time to man up and prove it.


 

Bodybuilders eat a fuckton of carbs.

Work out 6 days a week and you can love all the pizza you want.




Bullshit weak sauce excuse. Guys in wheelchairs go to the gym...and bang chicks.  

Google Bob Delmontenque to see what 80+ years old can look like.




The most manly among us would not let his cueball get in the way of dating.

Living alone is great. Sex alone is not.




The most manly among us would take action NOW, not "a couple of years".

Also, stop being afraid of Ancient Greek marketplaces.




No idea. I think "Kyle Aaron" is his forum nickname because of his South Park viking hat avatar. However, he's posted excellent fitness and health advice for gamers, aka "middle aged fatasses" before so he's who I recommend PMing with because he knows our kind of scum.




Arnold had legs like a tank. I saw him up close several times when I was involved with special education and special olympics pre-2000. Gregarious dude with a big smile and great with kids.

If Arnold is your idol, go walk in his steps.

Except for banging the housekeeper when your wife's pregnant. Or making bad Terminator sequels.

Skip those steps.

Thanks for the advice on googling that Bob Delmontenque guy. Since my safe search is always off I got alot of "interesting" poses from his youth. I couldn't scroll down to find any pics of him as an old man because the fragrance of the cock bouquet pic collections teared my eyes. But he has worked out all his life. But as an old man he can't develop muscle mass without using other stuff than 6 raw eggs in the morning.

And the advice to work out 6 days a week in order to be able to eat all the pizza I want would frankly kill me. And if I wanted to work out I would want to become big, not like the men and the women who train every day but has no muscle to show for it. I would need to train like Arnold, 5-6 hours per day. I would also need to follow his old school steroid cycle. Even though it isn't anything compared to the amount of shit modern bodybuilders (even the fake naturals) use it could still fuck me up at 47.

But I have lost weight in the past and I know how to do it. But I just have other issues that need my effort right now. Like not strangling the neighbours kids when they bounce a football INSIDE the apartment. That's just shitty parenthood. Tell those fucking ugly gnats to go out and play instead. We have brand new football fields for kids near here, with real football goals, artificial grass, the works. Stuff we never had as a kids.

As for manning up what else do you want me to do? Challenge you to a duel? A rap battle or a dance off? Are you possessed by Patrick Swayze?

It's crowds that I hate btw, that gives me panic attacks. I just isolated myself too long, got a tad of that old cabin fever along with the depression. The slum neighbourhood where I live now houses about 9000 people. The small town where I want to move and where I have alot of family members has 12000 living in the central parts. It's just the kind of small town I need. The queue system gets me 1 point every day and I need about 700 minimum in order to be number 5 on the list of applicants who gets a showing of a specific apartment. So roughly two years. I have about 250 points now.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065But he has worked out all his life. But as an old man he can't develop muscle mass without using other stuff than 6 raw eggs in the morning.

The most manly among us should be able to look at a dick pic without panicking.

Here's an article on really old people who began fitness training when they were older than you.
http://www.oldest.org/sports/bodybuilders/

AKA, nobody with working arms and legs has any excuse.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065And the advice to work out 6 days a week in order to be able to eat all the pizza I want would frankly kill me.

Plenty of soccer moms work out 6 days a week.

The most manly among us could easily do it.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065I would need to train like Arnold, 5-6 hours per day. I would also need to follow his old school steroid cycle.

It would get you out of the apartment so you could stop worrying about kids playing inside their own home.

And if you're around when the kids bounce the ball, solve the problem with headphones + death metal.

If your big problem is the neighbor kids bopping a ball against a wall, you have NO problems.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065It's crowds that I hate btw, that gives me panic attacks.

Buy a Slayer shirt, an iPod and mirrorshades. Crowds will part like the Red Sea.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065The slum neighbourhood where I live now houses about 9000 people.

Why is the most manly among us living in a slum?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065It's just the kind of small town I need.

Then go there now.

At bare minimum, the most manly among us would do whatever it takes to fast forward that time table.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1098065As for manning up what else do you want me to do?

YOU are the one who declared those of us with differing opinions on who we'd game with were "woke" and then YOU went on a bitchy little McBitchfest.
 
YOU are the one who declared himself most manly among us. That's all on you.

So what do I want you to do? Get off your fucking knees and do whatever it takes to not have such a pathetic
sounding life. It's a bad Tangency thread at RPG.net. Let the SJW brigade have the slums, the fat asses and the bullshit anxieties they milk for feels and vibes.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1098079The most manly among us should be able to look at a dick pic without panicking.

Here's an article on really old people who began fitness training when they were older than you.
http://www.oldest.org/sports/bodybuilders/

AKA, nobody with working arms and legs has any excuse.




Plenty of soccer moms work out 6 days a week.

The most manly among us could easily do it.




It would get you out of the apartment so you could stop worrying about kids playing inside their own home.

And if you're around when the kids bounce the ball, solve the problem with headphones + death metal.

If your big problem is the neighbor kids bopping a ball against a wall, you have NO problems.




Buy a Slayer shirt, an iPod and mirrorshades. Crowds will part like the Red Sea.




Why is the most manly among us living in a slum?




Then go there now.

At bare minimum, the most manly among us would do whatever it takes to fast forward that time table.




YOU are the one who declared those of us with differing opinions on who we'd game with were "woke" and then YOU went on a bitchy little McBitchfest.
 
YOU are the one who declared himself most manly among us. That's all on you.

So what do I want you to do? Get off your fucking knees and do whatever it takes to not have such a pathetic
sounding life. It's a bad Tangency thread at RPG.net. Let the SJW brigade have the slums, the fat asses and the bullshit anxieties they milk for feels and vibes.

I can tell you that anxiety and agoraphobia is no bullshit. You don't have the slightest idea, do you? Well, ok. Since you probably have a nice job and can afford it, buy a ticket here. I will meet you, break you in half and put it up on Youtube for the world to see. Would that suffice?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1098048Bullshit weak sauce excuse. Guys in wheelchairs go to the gym...and bang chicks.  

Agreed and seconded.

One does not have to train like a bodybuilder to get healthy. That is such a transparent lie that it cannot be used as any excuse to not exercise short of actually not being able to move due to an accident or medical condition.

All one needs to do is just slowly add more physical activity into their lives. Walk once or twice around the block for two weeks. Then add one more lap and one more. Instead of taking the escalator take the stairs once in awhile. It most defiantly does not require going to a gym or spending money to go to a gym. Refuse to do so we are not interested in hearing about your health problems

Same thing with cooking instead of eating crap and ordering in crap replace burger with one homemade. Or replace the burger with a sandwich with cold cuts, cheese, tomatoes and a leaf of salad. If one can walk to the restuarant to eat junk food they can walk to get healthy and more importantly to buy and make healthy food. Don't want to heat healthy then shut the hell up about your damn health problems if your not going to change any of your eating habits.

That is what is happened to our culture we can't tell people to eat healthy or exercise to get more healthy because fat and body shaming. Yet we have to put up with their incessant whining and moaning about their health problems. Fuck that no. Just like some don't want to hear about getting healthy and fit and make excuses and lies about not being able to do so. Neither does one have the right to whine and complain about their health problems. It works both ways.

It can be done. I am 46 and should have taken better care of myself. I am still overweight yet trying many ways to get more fit. The gym when I can, talking walks after work as I sit down all day at a desk job. I still eat junk food in small amounts yet most of it is healthy such as more vegetables and fruits. It can be done only a lack of will is what stops a person.

I'd question whether "bodybuilder" is the optimum training ideal for healthy anyway. The (male) human body is designed as a running, jumping, lifting, climbing, swimming machine. Bodybuilding only targets one of those things.

Quote from: sureshot;1098088Agreed and seconded.

One does not have to train like a bodybuilder to get healthy. That is such a transparent lie that it cannot be used as any excuse to not exercise short of actually not being able to move due to an accident or medical condition.

All one needs to do is just slowly add more physical activity into their lives. Walk once or twice around the block for two weeks. Then add one more lap and one more. Instead of taking the escalator take the stairs once in awhile. It most defiantly does not require going to a gym or spending money to go to a gym. Refuse to do so we are not interested in hearing about your health problems

Same thing with cooking instead of eating crap and ordering in crap replace burger with one homemade. Or replace the burger with a sandwich with cold cuts, cheese, tomatoes and a leaf of salad. If one can walk to the restuarant to eat junk food they can walk to get healthy and more importantly to buy and make healthy food. Don't want to heat healthy then shut the hell up about your damn health problems if your not going to change any of your eating habits.

That is what is happened to our culture we can't tell people to eat healthy or exercise to get more healthy because fat and body shaming. Yet we have to put up with their incessant whining and moaning about their health problems. Fuck that no. Just like some don't want to hear about getting healthy and fit and make excuses and lies about not being able to do so. Neither does one have the right to whine and complain about their health problems. It works both ways.

It can be done. I am 46 and should have taken better care of myself. I am still overweight yet trying many ways to get more fit. The gym when I can, talking walks after work as I sit down all day at a desk job. I still eat junk food in small amounts yet most of it is healthy such as more vegetables and fruits. It can be done only a lack of will is what stops a person.

[video=youtube_share;8FgEBoo5NbY]https://youtu.be/8FgEBoo5NbY[/youtube]

Quote from: tenbones;1097480Ahh, so then you do know why he has to imply those things. And who are these people doing the hounding exactly?

On this site, that would be RPGPundit and the moderators. Shasarak is coy enough to run no risk of being banned here, so I don't believe that is the real reason. Probably too timid to say what he means, like you.

QuotePlaying stupid is unbecoming of *all* of us. You because you're too chicken shit to call the duck a duck. And us because we're at least trying to have the conversation in good faith.

If you want to call Shasarak a duck, do so. I've said what I want to say about that; that you're whinging at me is your cowardice and dishonesty and bad faith.

QuoteSo your *very* answer is a classic example of the problem.

Another tenbones special. Ask a question - what is normal, jhkim? do you think IQ tests have any significance, rawma? - and then attack the response, no matter what it is.

I can easily characterize you based on having read your previous posts; but your decision to question me rather than Shasarak who brought up IQ tests is probably sufficient alone. What significance do you think IQ tests have, then?

Hey, leave Shasarak out of it.  Shasarak says what he wants to say and if you are not down with that then Shasarak has got two words for yah.

IQ tests certainly seem to predict performance in the modern workplace. That's why the US military uses the AFQT, which is a test of general intelligence. Stupid people are dangerous to themselves and to others and need to be kept away from weapons. Smart people tend to deal well with complex situations such as the battlefield.