Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093281I think I will just stop looking at my perfect bound full color books and go back to the 16 page folded and staples in the middle books where I can play "Fighting-Men" as my character. That would make everyone happy, no need to change, everything was perfect.

Oh noes! Did they use the term "man at arms" in the text, too?

Quote from: Kiero;1093284Oh noes! Did they use the term "man at arms" in the text, too?

They say such things as "the reward will more than repay him" in the intro section to running a campaign. I mean, it was good enough for 1973/4 why things were first being written down, heaven help us that in 2019 we would change the him to "them" because the problem is that it is others mistaking the "him" for a specific instead of a general term which really means everyone. We'll just stick to the original rules as first written, as the problem is entirely the "woke morons" and the text is perfect.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093286They say such things as "the reward will more than repay him" in the intro section to running a campaign. I mean, it was good enough for 1973/4 why things were first being written down, heaven help us that in 2019 we would change the him to "them" because the problem is that it is others mistaking the "him" for a specific instead of a general term which really means everyone. We'll just stick to the original rules as first written, as the problem is entirely the "woke morons" and the text is perfect.

Hyperbole much? The point of the thread is that gaming groups have always been open and diverse. To claim otherwise is patently false (also known as a Lie).

However, since we're on the subject:

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093279seeing art and rules that affirm and provide examples that all are welcome explicitly written helps and causes no harm.

I wouldn't be so quick to draw this conclusion. Suicide rates are at their highest since World War 2, and up 33% since 1999. Among young men ages 15-19, those rates are up 21% from just 2016 & 2017. Among women ages 15-19, the number is up 8 percent for the same time period. Among the transgender "community", attempted suicide is at a whopping 42%, and 30% will actually succeed. I don't know the age groups for the latter category, but the data was from a 2018 study conducted at Harvard. Among the last group, the data becomes less clear and divided for the root cause. As one could expect, dealing with feelings of rejection from family and loved ones was relatively common. On the surface, someone who's quick to look for any supporting data might conclude that you are correct. However, there is some, though too little to be conclusive as yet - studies are ongoing, data that suggests that "being woke" and "reaffirming woke" (admittedly my word here as a shorthand for people who associate with far left-leaning, "socially aware" circles) tendencies leads to feelings of hopelessness and futility, which leads to and fuels depression. Untreated depression often leads to suicidal tendencies.

I won't belabor the point. The the data is there for anyone who actually is open to real science* on the subject to look into (which I leave as an exercise to the reader, but to start you off I'll leave you with a link to the CDC - other sources may actually require you to pay for access) - so no need to take my word for it. The point, however, is that the available data at least hints at the possibility that the above quoted contributes to trends that are doing active, measurable, objective harm. If the data trends continue, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see published material publicly stating as much hitting the news feeds in the near future.

*As opposed to the so-called studies put for by academics in Humanities that appear to, for all intents and purposes, make up their data as they go. Yes, I have a very, very low opinion of people with Humanities backgrounds. Take that for what you will.

In all honesty, there have been attempts to exclude groups from the hobby. However, they tend to be fringe crusades by individuals or small groups, and usually get very little traction outside of the Internet, if there.
 
  Is anyone else here old enough to remember Drac on rec.games.frp.misc in 1994/5, who tried to convince people that Christianity and gaming were fundamentally opposed and any Christian gamer should apostasize?

  More recently, portions of the hobby have decided that 'not tolerating intolerance' extends to large swaths of the community, and one person has declared that forums have to realize that "they can't remain purely neutral even if they will not or can not become a partisan site or the vanguard of the revolution."

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093286They say such things as "the reward will more than repay him" in the intro section to running a campaign. I mean, it was good enough for 1973/4 why things were first being written down, heaven help us that in 2019 we would change the him to "them" because the problem is that it is others mistaking the "him" for a specific instead of a general term which really means everyone. We'll just stick to the original rules as first written, as the problem is entirely the "woke morons" and the text is perfect.

Which has been understood to be the standard usage to mean "him or her" for decades. And is much neater and simpler than "their".

So yes, let's stick to the standard usage, instead of making awful prose for the sake of some tiny minority of losers with such first-world problems, that the pronouns used in a rulebook offend them so.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093279I am not surprised that you miss the fucking point and want to defend your little perceived corner of reality. First, the sex change magic item was a negative at the time. Second, rule books are where the rules are explicitly written down, including the rule that says that the DM and players have discretion. For someone new to the game, seeing art and rules that affirm and provide examples that all are welcome explicitly written helps and causes no harm.

It is not hard to see account after account of people both new to the game and who have been playing it for quite a long time day how much they appreciate the affirmation. My table has not only been open to all gamers but it has actually been decently diverse over the years I have played. I like that the rules reflect it.

You can cherry pick a spell or magic item and claims that the rules never said you could not, but the rules also did not
Say that not only could you but it is expected and part of the game if you want.

I think that has made a difference, and the difference is easy to see in the increased popularity of the game today.

I'm not surprised YOU think I have no idea of what I'm talking about, I live in México, never did I hear anybody ask why the elves weren't more like them, or my very gay cousin why the dwarfs didn't like to take it up the ass. Or any of the women who played with us why it said El and not ella.

You can make claims about anecdotal evidence and from your thinking I guess we can say you play mostly with SJWs so of course they would say that.

Since the rules didn't say you could nobody did right? Must be why there never was a single self made module, adventure or house rules. Must be why no DM/GM ever invented new monsters or classes. Must be why nobody ever played as anything else than themselves.

So in my tables men played as men, women as women, gays as gays, and not a single one of us ever played as anything other than a mexican fuck doing mexican things like going to school.

Yes, the increased popularity must not have anything to do with the heavy marketing or the fact that the population grew a lot right? RIGHT? It must be because it's more in line with your cult.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093290I'm not surprised YOU think I have no idea of what I'm talking about, I live in México, never did I hear anybody ask why the elves weren't more like them, or my very gay cousin why the dwarfs didn't like to take it up the ass. Or any of the women who played with us why it said El and not ella.

You can make claims about anecdotal evidence and from your thinking I guess we can say you play mostly with SJWs so of course they would say that.

Since the rules didn't say you could nobody did right? Must be why there never was a single self made module, adventure or house rules. Must be why no DM/GM ever invented new monsters or classes. Must be why nobody ever played as anything else than themselves.

So in my tables men played as men, women as women, gays as gays, and not a single one of us ever played as anything other than a mexican fuck doing mexican things like going to school.

Yes, the increased popularity must not have anything to do with the heavy marketing or the fact that the population grew a lot right? RIGHT? It must be because it's more in line with your cult.

My cult? Again, clueless. You assuming I grew up in the USA and that English was the language around me? Maybe assuming my age?

You try and claim that marketing is different and a main reason, but ignore what is being marketed (there really was not much marketing $$$ spent for 5e, Hasbro had laid off all but a skeleton crew that heavily relied on outside contractors. Once it took off, then marketing $$$ showed up).

And, again you seem to confuse who is playing at your table with the rules. I already agreed that claims that the player base itself were racist/sexist or whatever other crap you want to toss in is bullshit. That is missing the point about the base rules being more implicitly diverse. Which can be only on purpose so you can continue to post alarmist threads that are as bad as the woke morons you seem to be afraid of.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093293My cult? Again, clueless. You assuming I grew up in the USA and that English was the language around me?

Actually, the "cult of Diversity" is very much an international one. No need to make such an assumption.

Edit: Or if that's too offensive for the very sensitive, say "diversity culture". Technically they mean very much the same thing.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093293My cult? Again, clueless. You assuming I grew up in the USA and that English was the language around me? Maybe assuming my age?

You try and claim that marketing is different and a main reason, but ignore what is being marketed (there really was not much marketing $$$ spent for 5e, Hasbro had laid off all but a skeleton crew that heavily relied on outside contractors. Once it took off, then marketing $$$ showed up).

And, again you seem to confuse who is playing at your table with the rules. I already agreed that claims that the player ASE itself were racist/sexist or whatever other crap you want to toss in is bullshit. That is missing the point about the base rules being more implicitly diverse. Which can be only on purpose so you can continue to post alarmist threads that are as bad as the woke morons you seem to be afraid of.

I made other points, wonder why you didn't address them?

Also Your cult has infected all the west, even here in México we get your zealots.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093295I made other points, wonder why you didn't address them?

Also Your cult has infected all the west, even here in México we get your zealots.

You still have not shown that there is any cult involved, especially in my opinions, so there is nothing to refute.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093293My cult? Again, clueless. You assuming I grew up in the USA and that English was the language around me? Maybe assuming my age?

The only thing I'm assuming is that you are an asshole based upon what you have been posting here. Don't really care about anything else because it doesn't mean jack shit at the game table and hasn't since the dawn of tabletop RPGs.

Quote from: Omega;1093272Yes they were. Why wouldn't they be?

The answer is in the name.

Quote from: Kiero;1093280It's a bizarre kind of revisionism, because we're talking about events that weren't that long ago. Furthermore, the people engaged in that attempt to alter history don't have any power to make it so.

Do they believe everyone who was there is just going to let them change the account and no one will point out their lies?

I firmly believe that some of these idiots picked up a history book once and leafed through the sections on the 50s-60s and cherry picked "racist! and sexist!" and fanatically believe that all of that still exists everywhere.

It is the new Inquisition/Pulling BADD. Once you start believing that devil cults are everywhere you start seeing devil cults everywhere and start making up systems to find and accuse ANYONE of being a devil cult. And failing all that, they simply hallucinate you doing devil cult stuff. Sarkisian pretty much codified the new inquisitiion cult manifesto.

And there are allways going to be these nuts out there and sooner or later one with a high CHA score is going to start convincing normal people that all these lies are truths. This recent batch of the insane just seems more virulent than in the relatively recent past.

And by far not just gaming. But since D&D came out its become a popular target. Then Arcades, then PC games, then Console games. Would not surprise me if Pinball games before that and and board games before that at some point didnt see some heat from some loony bin out there. Comics are the other one that gets hit often. Then on down the entertainment line.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1093287Suicide rates are at their highest since World War 2, and up 33% since 1999. Among young men ages 15-19, those rates are up 21% from just 2016 & 2017. Among women ages 15-19, the number is up 8 percent for the same time period. Among the transgender "community", attempted suicide is at a whopping 42%, and 30% will actually succeed. I don't know the age groups for the latter category, but the data was from a 2018 study conducted at Harvard. Among the last group, the data becomes less clear and divided for the root cause. As one could expect, dealing with feelings of rejection from family and loved ones was relatively common. On the surface, someone who's quick to look for any supporting data might conclude that you are correct. However, there is some, though too little to be conclusive as yet - studies are ongoing, data that suggests that "being woke" and "reaffirming woke" (admittedly my word here as a shorthand for people who associate with far left-leaning, "socially aware" circles) tendencies leads to feelings of hopelessness and futility, which leads to and fuels depression. Untreated depression often leads to suicidal tendencies.

A few points:

• Suicide rates appear to be increasing most rapidly in rural areas and among non-Hispanic whites, and to be more common among people with chronic pain or under severe socioeconomic stress. These don't seem correlated with being "woke" (or RPGs) to me.
• I'm quite willing to believe that transgender people have a high suicide rate because of how they are treated, by people close to them or by society at large.
• I do think that people should not be jerks to people who show up to play RPGs with them.
• I started playing D&D in the late 70s, and there were people playing who particularly treated women badly; DMs in particular had power in a game to be bullies, but other than that I don't think there was significantly worse or better treatment of women, minorities or whatever in RPGs than in other situations.
• In the absence of jerks, RPGs might help reduce suicide risk by connecting lonely people in a social situation.
• But I'm very, very doubtful that RPGs have more than a negligible effect on suicide rates, no matter how tables are conducted; people for whom their RPG play is that big a deal are likely to already have other more significant problems, and there just aren't that many people in the hobby anyway.
• Can you not promote any analog of the BADD/Satanic panic crap, even if you're just doing it to attack your political enemies? The RPG hobby doesn't need that.

Quote from: Kiero;1093269Unlike passive entertainment like movies or books or video games, I don't have to identify with a character made by someone else; I make my own. Which makes all these arguments about "representation" entirely spurious.

Quote from: Omega;1093340I firmly believe that some of these idiots picked up a history book once and leafed through the sections on the 50s-60s and cherry picked "racist! and sexist!" and fanatically believe that all of that still exists everywhere.

Both expressions of the same need to create a Sheriff of Nottingham, desiring to play Robin Hood.