Quote from: tenbones;1096962The examples stretch to nearly *every* thing this ideology has touched.

A better challenge is to show me where it has succeeded *without* co-opting something already established? Then let's talk about that "success"...

LOL, where has it succeeded even co-opting something already established? Ghostbusters2016, Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, Marvel Comics, the CUW, Marvel movies. They will claim Captain Wahmen "succeeded" but it made money only because they lied about people needing to see it to understand End Game (very fitting name). And I left out the glaring "Successes" in Video Games.

If you're not unwelcoming, nobody is asking you to change.  If you're not unwelcoming it doesn't mean that you can't admit or accept that some people might be unwelcoming, or even that those people might give the hobby in general a bad reputation.  How many lawn-shitters have to be tolerated before there's a problem?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096967If you're not unwelcoming, nobody is asking you to change.  If you're not unwelcoming it doesn't mean that you can't admit or accept that some people might be unwelcoming, or even that those people might give the hobby in general a bad reputation.  How many lawn-shitters have to be tolerated before there's a problem?

I'll just leave this here

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Quote from: GeekyBugle;1096966LOL, where has it succeeded even co-opting something already established? Ghostbusters2016, Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, Marvel Comics, the CUW, Marvel movies. They will claim Captain Wahmen "succeeded" but it made money only because they lied about people needing to see it to understand End Game (very fitting name). And I left out the glaring "Successes" in Video Games.

That goes without saying... for those of us that know these things are now ruined.

*They* don't see that. It's the proverbial "no raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood."

And worse, they're so pathologically narcissistic they don't care, because they're so focused on their own feelings, they don't really give a fuck about anyone else's, while demanding we focus on them. The we engage in their habits as if we *ought* to care. That our own desires are somehow wrong because of it. And worse: anything outside of their invisible bubble only they can see - is wrought of evil.

Well... that's one way to go through life. I don't recommend it.

"The fundamental condition of Life is suffering, but there is no need to turn the volume up to 12 on it. That's stupid."

- Some Jackass

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096967If you're not unwelcoming, nobody is asking you to change.  If you're not unwelcoming it doesn't mean that you can't admit or accept that some people might be unwelcoming, or even that those people might give the hobby in general a bad reputation.  How many lawn-shitters have to be tolerated before there's a problem?

All of them because the definition of "unwelcoming" is subjective and also none of them because people can choose not to game with those they find "unwelcoming".

Would my white, male friend be able to wear his MAGA hat at any public gaming table or to any gaming convention? I’ve known him for years and at his worst he’s never shit on a lawn. What injustice would he be committing wearing such a hat?

Quote from: tenbones;1096970 That does without saying... for those of us that know these things are now ruined.

*They* don't see that. It's the proverbial "no raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood."

And worse, they're so pathologically narcissistic they don't care, because they're so focused on their own feelings, they don't really give a fuck about anyone else's, while demanding we focus on them. The we engage in their habits as if we *ought* to care. That our own desires are somehow wrong because of it. And worse: anything outside of their invisible bubble only they can see - is wrought of evil.

Well... that's one way to go through life. I don't recommend it.

"The fundamental condition of Life is suffering, but there is no need to turn the volume up to 12 on it. That's stupid."

- Some Jackass

What's baffling is how they're orchestrating their own demise. We tolerated them because, well, we're tolerant. The insipid fools turned inches into miles and used that against us. Now, after being branded evil and cruel and every other negative term imaginable no matter our actions, the damn is breaking and the sane with little to lose are beginning to rouse and turn a mature, measured rage against these buffoons.

Their unspoken claims are "You're not tolerating us *enough*."

Which is funny when they set upon themselves - like when Lesbians get accused of being Transphobic for refusing to have relations with trans-women. They ignore the basic reality that one isn't required to be as involved as you in your "shit".

Quote from: tenbones;1096978Their unspoken claims are "You're not tolerating us *enough*."

Which is funny when they set upon themselves - like when Lesbians get accused of being Transphobic for refusing to have relations with trans-women. They ignore the basic reality that one isn't required to be as involved as you in your "shit".

When other people start telling me who I can have relations with then they can fuck off back to their own safe space and wax their hairy balls themselves.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1096947Jeff, don't know why you would roll your eyes at that.  I'm well aware of that dynamic and have commented on it before, in this forum, multiple times.  That's why the type of people that use that tactic are excluded from my games.  The only way to win that game is not to play.

Well, fuck. I hit the wrong target. Sorry about that.

Serves me right for posting after a 15 hour shift.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096884You're choosing a very sweeping interpretation.  

Since I have been branded an SJW, let me clarify.  

Essentially, jhkim's contention is correct.  There are 300 Million + people in the United States and some of them are extremely bigoted - whether against a sect or religion (Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Satanists, etc), a race (blacks, Africans, Asians, Italians, Roma, etc), a gender (women, trans-) a sexual preference (homosexual, bi-sexual, pansexual, etc) or something else.  It's normal enough that you don't have to look very hard to find these people.  Often they're very eager to express their opinions about why one group or another doesn't deserve to be treated as people.  Because some significant number of people are bigoted, and there's no reason to think that players or RPGs are any less bigoted than the general population (or other groups where bias and bigotry has been a problem like the military, the police, and many other individual businesses), there's no reason to think that bias and bigotry CAN'T exist among people who play RPGs.  It doesn't have to be among all groups for it to be seen as a problem...  Many groups are very stable, they don't typically recruit new players for years at a time and no matter how open-minded they might be, they may not be the first group that people encounter.  If people who play RPGs have the same distribution of prejudice as the general population, some new players will encounter it and may find that it turns them off the hobby completely.  

Some people are very welcoming in this hobby.  That's a good thing.

Some people are very UNwelcoming in this hobby.  That's a bad thing.  

Since there isn't a system set up to ensure that people first interact with welcoming people, it becomes a crap-shoot.  Saying 'I was once new to this hobby and nobody made me feel unwelcome' doesn't invalidate the experience of someone else who's experience wasn't as positive.  Understanding that some groups experience more bias than others, it's even less convincing when a straight white male playing in a group entirely composed of other straight white males helpfully explains how they never experienced discrimination as if that proves that historically discriminated against groups couldn't have had the experience of being discriminated against.

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In the 80's we were attacked by the sportsball players and the "cool kidz". I remember the girls who would not date us, I remember hearing how we were all Nerds and worse. I remember people of every ethnicity, male and female, Straight, Gay and everything else hanging out at my parents place just trying not to get beaten up on a daily basis. Everyone was welcome at our game table. Today we are attacked by SJW lairs rewriting history to please them. They spoil everything they touch.

Quote from: Shasarak;1096987When other people start telling me who I can have relations with then they can fuck off back to their own safe space and wax their hairy balls themselves.

Hairy cunts actually. Its been women pushing for total control over who marries who for ages. And some want that level of power back. They want to tell every woman what they can and cant do. While of course not being under those rules themselves. This is why my friend despises Feminism as it has turned into this.

Quote from: Omega;1096995Hairy cunts actually. Its been women pushing for total control over who marries who for ages. And some want that level of power back. They want to tell every woman what they can and cant do. While of course not being under those rules themselves. This is why my friend despises Feminism as it has turned into this.

Are we talking about the same hairy balls?

What do you have against tennis? :cool:

Quote from: deadDMwalkingSince there isn't a system set up to ensure that people first interact with welcoming people, it becomes a crap-shoot. Saying 'I was once new to this hobby and nobody made me feel unwelcome' doesn't invalidate the experience of someone else who's experience wasn't as positive.

Quote from: Gagarth;1096937Nor does it validate the idea that the vast majority of non-white males who approached a rpg group were told to fuck off.  This is the idea that is being used to fuel the SJW jihad.

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Quote from: tenbones;1096952The *contention* from SJW's *IN* the RPG space - i.e. the loudest, most obnoxious, people what either are part of the publishing/design teams, or indy-scene, and/or their fandom, is that until their arrival the RPG "community" is largely unwelcoming to their ilk, including neutral people they've co-opted that aren't white, or are LGBT that don't really agree.

The counter claim - by Pundit, and many of us here - including "POC" like myself is this is, and I'll use a technical term "HORSESHIT"

Personally, I think both of the following are equally horseshit:
1) No RPG player has ever been bigoted or unwelcoming
2) The majority of all RPG players have always been bigoted and unwelcoming to anything but straight white males

Compared to the rest of society, I think that RPGs have been relatively inclusive. But that doesn't mean we were perfectly welcoming to everyone - because the rest of society has had plenty of prejudice. I know that when I was starting RPGs in the 1970s, my group was myself (half-Korean), an Armenian immigrant kid, and a Jewish kid. But that doesn't mean that we didn't have any prejudices. I'm not sure we would have welcomed a kid who was out as gay. I didn't know of any kids who were out, and for good reason, because it was a huge stigma at the time.

There have been and still are prejudiced RPG players, even here in this thread.

Quote from: tenbones;1096952But you don't get to pretend that the RPG fanbase has not been inclusive from the start. The same is true of comics, movies, etc. You want representation to be sufficient to your own standards? Go create it. You are owned nothing for your own needs by others. Nothing is stopping you except the illusion that those that aren't invested in your pet-identity label of choice *should* be by some corporate fiat or social-mob mandate. That's not "representation". That's co-option and coercion.

This is exactly backwards. "Corporate fiat"??  If you don't like what some company like Paizo or WotC makes, then buy from a different company or just make your own stuff. There are tons of options out there.

On the other hand, if you want WotC to produce stuff according to your tastes, then you're going to have to lobby them more effectively than other groups are lobbying them. Again, that's fucking capitalism. Unless you're a 51% stockholder of WotC, you don't own them, and they may produce stuff that you don't like. That's life.