Quote from: cranebump;1095184I didn't say White Man Evil. You did. And no, not all extremists are white males. You went there with that, too.

As for who feels they can speak up, and maybe be heard these days, then, yeah, I'd say it's groups that aren't white dudes, or straight. Women and minorities are assuming more positions of power in government. They're bringing an agenda that reflects their backgrounds, which is quite different from mine. I'm not afraid of it, and I'm not going to get defensive when someone makes an obviously true assertion.
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Pick a date when these groups you speak of  started having a voice then.  Do really think that when the quotas get to the levels that poc activists and their SJW allies (like you)  find acceptable do really think the White Man Evil mantra will stop?  

And yet again a SJW ignores the idea that someone from a non white community  is put off from an activity because of the hatred generated against whites by people within in the community. You should get that type of blindness declared a disability and make some money from it.

Quote from: Gagarth;1095287Pick a date when this started happening then.  Do really think that when the quotas get to the levels that poc activists and their SJW allies like you  find acceptable do really think the White Man Evil mantra will stop?

Please allow me to answer that: No, they won't. You know that, I know that, cranebump knows it. SJWs are like kids who weren't disciplined immediately for bad behavior. Now, we're dealing with habits we should've never tolerated in the first place. They mistook tolerance as weakness and the irony is that if we weren't tolerant and accepting, SJWs and those they champion would never have been able to have a voice at all.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095252Unsurprisingly, the British approached the abolition of slavery in a civilised manner, marshalling institutions and building support for the subsequent abolition via act of parliament for this most heinous crime against humanity.
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There was no large population of ex-slaves within British Isles when slavery  was abolished and were the ex-slaves in the Caribbean in any better a position that the slaves ex-Confederate States?  Your  comparison is wrong .

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095252By contrast, the Americans approached the issue with violence. A war was fought over a tax dispute (much like the rebellion against legitimate British rule in the prior century) and, in order to destroy the economy of the vanquished, slavery was simply declared ended. No institutions were involved. There was no hint that the war involved the issue of slavery. It was simply ended overnight without a framework being put in place to ensure that this enjoyed popular support etc....

The net result? The slavery issue, in reality, took another century to resolve. Slavery might not have existed but the ugly holdovers of that time continued well into the late 20th century. Heck, we're still seeing the matter of reparations being discussed by the economic vandals who think that debasing a currency is sound economic policy.

Slavery had already been ended in the Northern States with legislation so this utter nonsense.

 

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095252TL;DR: The USA is a third world country pretending to be first world. That means weird stuff happens on a regular basis that makes no sense to those of us who enjoy the fruits of civilisation.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095252I cannot control how someone chooses to live his or her life, or what he or she believes in. Nor would I want to. However, the normalisation of these "outlying" behaviours, which have traditionally been held to be mental illnesses rather than bad biological wiring, has major effects for the most vulnerable in society - children. It's child abuse with horrible ramifications for later in life when they wake up and realise they've been deluded.

It's a crime that approaches paedophilia in terms of damage inflicted on the most vulnerable in our societies and should be treated as such. (And, no, I don't mean, "covered up so powerful people don't get thrown in jail.")

But the LBTQABCDEFGHIJKLM community should be treated with kindness because, ultimately, they're people and people should be treated with kindness. Unless, of course, their behaviour threatens the physical or mental health of my children, family, and/or friends. And, yes, that means I would game with them, just as I game with people whose political or economic views are opposed to mine.

You are smoking the same shit as rawma aren't you.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1095289Please allow me to answer that: No, they won't. You know that, I know that, cranebump knows it. SJWs are like kids who weren't disciplined immediately for bad behavior. Now, we're dealing with habits we should've never tolerated in the first place. They mistook tolerance as weakness and the irony is that if we weren't tolerant and accepting, SJWs and those they champion would never have been able to have a voice at all.

If it does get to acceptable levels it will be interesting to see what happens to the"allies". No doubt it will be something like what happened to the allies of the communists in the National Liberation Front in Vietnam and the non-Islamist supporters of the Iranian Revolution.

Quote from: Gagarth;1095291If it does get to acceptable levels it will be interesting to see what happens to the"allies". No doubt it will be something like what happened to the allies of the communists in the National Liberation Front in Vietnam and the non-Islamist supporters of the Iranian Revolution.

I recently had that same conversation with a friend. It's a level of delusion I can't fathom. In some ways I pity young adults who have been so thoroughly indoctrinated, they're orchestrating their own demise.

Quote from: jhkim;1095255My apologies, Aglondir. That was a name slip-up on my part. I meant to say Alathon, who described himself as an ethno-nationalist.

I'll go back and edit that to correct my mistake.

Thanks, that makes sense. I'm more libertarian than nationalist. I've been trying to focus more on gaming  and leave politics behind. Aside from the occasional jab at SJWs.

Quote from: cranebump;1095210I just said it's a white dude's game (but less so these days). I didn't even say that was a bad thing. But it is a thing.

It's only a "thing" to people who divide everyone into separate groups based on skin color and genitalia in the first place. To everyone else, it's as simple as "some people like to RPG, others don't".

To tenbones - I'm glad that Pundit and indeed most posters here are roughly pro-LGBT equality. I think that's great. But more broadly, LGBT rights are not secure. There are plenty of places in the U.S. where someone is likely to be beaten up for coming out as gay, and worse internationally (i.e. China, Russia, Saudi Arabia).

Quote from: jhkimBut I don't think either of those is a good thing, and I'd prefer it if those attitudes didn't exist. My family and friends who are LGBT have had to deal with a lot of crap because of attitudes like this. Particularly when he was younger, I wouldn't want my son being exposed to it, as I consider it a sort or bigotry.

Quote from: tenbones;1095248I suspect what the issue today - is not yours particularly, but those that are in the politically active LGBT/SJW/"allied" crowd is the fact that they want to passive-aggressively *force* people to accept their behavior as "normal" when in fact, it's not. By definition. It's an outlier.

There are different uses of the term "normal". For example, being Swedish-American isn't the average in the U.S., but almost no one would say a person was "abnormal" or an "outlier" because they were Swedish-American.

Quote from: tenbones;1095248This doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated well as humans. But it flies in the face of cultural values that simply can't sustain pretending that the way Americans in, say in San Francisco and LA celebrate "Gay Pride" in their parades, where it's highly sexual in nature - should be somehow embraced by those that don't practice such things. I would no more support a sexual parade *in general* as some expression of pride, if only for the sake of not wanting to subject my kids to it (well my kids are grown now - but you get the idea.)

How invested are we *supposed* to be, to your satisfaction of not "preferring" those attitudes to exist? Where exactly is that line to be drawn where YOU say "Yeah, well whatever?". And should gays likewise be exuberant about Heterosexuality too? If not, why not?

I'm not sure what the values line is that you're talking about here. By parallel, I'm not Catholic and I've never been to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, nor would I take my kid there when he was young - but I accept it as a part of my country's culture. I also realize that Mardi Gras and its sexualized nature isn't representative of all Catholics.

Quote from: jhkim;1095323To tenbones - I'm glad that Pundit and indeed most posters here are roughly pro-LGBT equality. I think that's great. But more broadly, LGBT rights are not secure. There are plenty of places in the U.S. where someone is likely to be beaten up for coming out as gay, and worse internationally (i.e. China, Russia, Saudi Arabia).

What "rights" are homosexuals being denied here? Being beaten up for being Gay *IS* against the law, not because they're gay, but because beating up *anyone* is against the law.

Further - these "plenty of places" where you can be beaten up for being openly gay... do you think the number of such places might not hold equally true for other sub-sets of society in other places filled with other assholes that don't like you for being: White, Asian, Mexican, etc. etc. I'm sure I can pick all kinds of locations where per capita you're going to find this "issue" isn't really an issue. Crime statistics already show that LGBT communities assault THEMSELVES at a MUCH higher rate than non-LGBT folks to themselves - or to LGBT people themselves.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community

Where is the actual problem?

Quote from: jhkim;1095323There are different uses of the term "normal". For example, being Swedish-American isn't the average in the U.S., but almost no one would say a person was "abnormal" or an "outlier" because they were Swedish-American.

So are you saying you don't really know what "normal" means? Or are you being "rhetorical"? Is it possible for a man to make love to you, as tenderly as possible, with whatever emotional context required for you to acquiesce to such advances - is that act normal to you? Does such a state exist for you? If not - then is it not wise to presume that's "not normal" since as a heterosexual man whose line of behaviors in these matters is in accordance with over 90% of the human population (and I'm willing to be generous in either direction) that would be, under any other circumstances - "not normal".  Seems pretty easy (to me).

And as for the Swedish-American bit. Sweden is a Western European nation from which America derives the vast majority of it's socio-philosophical and political mores. My *general* guess is a "Swedish-American" (whatever the fuck that means in reality) isn't probably a sufficient strain of sub-culture to matter much from "the norm". I'm not sure what your point it. Do you think being a hyphenated-American makes you a "Hyphenated-American" and somehow contextually that insulates one from reality? Again, not sure if you're playing dumb or you're pulling a rhetorically weak points without substantive context to what you say you believe.

Do you think "Swedish-Americans" have the same experience and cultural gravity as "Mexican-Americans"? Personally I know VASTLY more Mexican gamers than Swedish ones. What's your point?

Quote from: jhkim;1095323I'm not sure what the values line is that you're talking about here. By parallel, I'm not Catholic and I've never been to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, nor would I take my kid there when he was young - but I accept it as a part of my country's culture. I also realize that Mardi Gras and its sexualized nature isn't representative of all Catholics.

Well that's a very pathological post-modernist view of your religion (which explains a lot about your view on "normal". By pathologically post-modern I *specifically* mean - Post-Modernists (as opposed to Modernists) can hold two values simultaneously in their scrutiny. But pathological post-modernists are unable/unwilling to discern their values so act as if they're equal.

So you say all these things... yet would you then extend those sentiments to Gay Pride events? You clearly think Mardi Gras parades are not representative of Catholicism - do you think the way Gay Pride Parades are celebrated, encouraged and protected in America - in every major city and the content of those parades are representative of LGBT culture?

What does your discernment tell you?

Quote from: jhkim;1095323To tenbones - I'm glad that Pundit and indeed most posters here are roughly pro-LGBT equality. I think that's great. But more broadly, LGBT rights are not secure. There are plenty of places in the U.S. where someone is likely to be beaten up for coming out as gay, and worse internationally (i.e. China, Russia, Saudi Arabia).

I'm fine with LGB rights, not with the rabid trans activists trying to ram their "gender is just a social construct" nonsense down everyone's throats, attempting to erase actual women in sports and endangering children with unnecessary surgery.

Getting back on topic...

I still don't understand how RPG's are not "inclusive". If the premise should be "play these elf-games any fucking way you want" - how is it not inclusive? It's always been this way.

Why do *I* have to expect to find some particular aspect of my irreversible attributes be manifest in *any* game for me to not enjoy it to the point of accusing everyone else they dislike me - *because* that element is not represented?

I say this qualitatively because in my many decades of gameplay what *I* personally identify as has *never* been actually represented and it has not stopped me or slowed me down one iota in engaging as a participant, as a designer, as a writer, editor, GM or player in *any* aspect of the table-top gaming hobby. I've met people in this hobby from every walk of life, many different races, LGBT folks, real gangbangers (yes that actually game), hipsters, meth-heads, geniuses, perverts, a couple of amputees, one dwarf (played with her at a convention tournament - no she didn't play a dwarf)... in fact, I can say unequivocally, I've had more interactions directly with more people from different places, background, viewpoints. Not all of them good people by any stretch.

It's pretty clear this is more of a discussion about "how can we force people to indulge in my emotional needs and like my stuff the way I like it." With the subtext of if you don't agree, then you're a hateful, bigotted -ism practicing -ist.

Quote from: tenbones;1095355I still don't understand how RPG's are not "inclusive".

Aha! We found one of those muhsogggyknees waaaycists on theRPGsite!!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1095381Aha! We found one of those muhsogggyknees waaaycists on theRPGsite!!!

"I can dance all day! I can dance all day! Try and hit me! Try and hit me!"

- FPSDoug

Quote from: tenbones;1095328What "rights" are homosexuals being denied here? Being beaten up for being Gay *IS* against the law, not because they're gay, but because beating up *anyone* is against the law.

It is also considered a Federal hate crime even if the motivation for the assault was not based on them being LGBT.

I always laugh and shake my head when people from both Canada and the US keep openly stating how dangerous it is for gay and trans people here. sure one might see a hate crime every blue moon yet openly being beat up. Unless one is living in a Bizarro Twilight version of the world I live in that is simply not true. When in certain places in the world being gay and trans will get you thrown off the roofs of real tall buildings. I guess when one views reality and the world in general through narratives they lose sight of how lucky they are to live in both countries.