Quote from: fixable;1095074Thanks, I'm going to respond with some honest questions:

I'm not sure what the definition of 'virtue signaling' is. Do you have a clear definition?

Virtue Signaling - the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

Virtue signaling is the conspicuous expression of moral values.

Quote from: fixable;1095074I see the term used here and elsewhere. Personally, I see it as a term mostly used to dismiss an opposing viewpoint.

It is. The conspicuous expression of moral values by people is usually done not to discuss a topic at hand, but to demonstrate the moral superiority of the poster in an attempt to ensure that they are higher up on the social ladder and thus their words have more importance than the rest who are involved in the discussion.

Quote from: fixable;1095074But who decides whether it is ham-fisted and pandering or not?

The reader.

Quote from: fixable;1095074Who decides if something is 'woke'?

Woke - The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue.

Again, the reader.

Quote from: fixable;1095074Why does including such assume a lack of welcoming to the game?

Why does not including such assume a lack of welcoming to the game?

Quote from: fixable;1095074It sounds kind of hypocritical to me.

So, you were not interested in a discussion and have already made up your mind?

Quote from: fixable;1095074If you are open and welcoming, then why the resistance to non-binary or transgender characters?

There is no resistance as long as the characters fit in with the setting of the game or the plot of an adventure.

Quote from: fixable;1095074Where is the line drawn that it is done for 'virtual signaling'?

When the inclusion of minority characters is used to advertise a game or a person's appearance of moral superiority.

Quote from: fixable;1095074What do you consider an 'acceptable' use of such characters?

Your question should be broader than that. ANY character included in the text should fit within the setting of the game or be essential to the plot of the adventure. Otherwise that character is extraneous. That character can be of any race, gender, species, or orientation - it is not just limited to non-binary or transgender.

Quote from: fixable;1095074Why do they have to 'make sense in the game as part of the setting or the plot of the adventure'?

Then why include them?

Quote from: fixable;1095074My point is there shouldn't have to be a justification... they can just be. If you don't like it, you can totally change it... I've changed NPC's to different races, genders as I desired for my own games... why does anyone care about this when any DM can make of the NPCs as they desire?

If you are including a character for no reason other than to include them, then aren't you just using them as a token? Isn't that even more insulting than just not including them at all?

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1095082I'm Australian by birth and have lived in Asia for 20+ years. Race has never been an issue for me or my friends: We're not Americans. Why should I feel guilty that a borderline failed state still can't come to terms with its own history?

Unfortunately, in Britain we are closer, culturally, to the US. What happens there is upstream of us, thus we now have our own "Black Lives Matters" movement, even though most of their charges are utterly irrelevant in Britain.

Our history on race is very different to the US, what with being the leading power in the fight against Transatlantic slavery.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095084Your question should be broader than that. ANY character included in the text should fit within the setting of the game or be essential to the plot of the adventure. Otherwise that character is extraneous. That character can be of any race, gender, species, or orientation - it is not just limited to non-binary or transgender.

Absolutely, shoe-horning in token characters to tick diversity boxes is the opposite of coherent settings.

I normally play non-white characters, but at the same time they are always appropriate to the setting. That hit a stumbling block in our long-running WFRP2e game, which is in an analogous 16th century Europe with the serials filed off. I could have come up with a contrived notion of how someone from a far off land ended up there, but since it wasn't even set in the Empire, that was too much work. As it was, being an Imperial (but specifically of peasant origin) was "minority" enough.

Quote from: moonsweeper;1094882I am stealing this one!

20$ in royalties LET'S GO BOIII.
JK use it as you wish.

Quote from: A5paperboy;109510120$ in royalties LET'S GO BOIII.
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[ATTACH=CONFIG]3590[/ATTACH]

Quote from: jeff37923;1095084VThe conspicuous expression of moral values by people is usually done not to discuss a topic at hand, but to demonstrate the moral superiority of the poster in an attempt to ensure that they are higher up on the social ladder and thus their words have more importance than the rest who are involved in the discussion.

Pretty much. There are two reasons why people publicly and conspicuously enforce group values:

1) To shame the transgressors into conforming to group norms.
2) To demonstrate that the person doing the enforcing is a trustworthy and upright member of the group.

The first has genuine utility to the group (presuming social conformity is sometimes a good thing). The second is pretty much a selfish act of status-seeking.

The problem is that social media has massively incentivized reason 2. Publicly broadcasting your own moral righteousness, and your ability to detect transgressions and willingness to denounce them, is one of the primary ways people today - especially those who are extremely online - have of gaining social status.

Anyone who cares about honesty and good-faith discussion should be highly suspicious of virtue-signalling. And of course this isn't just a progressive left thing. If in a discussion about municipal spending someone tries to suppress criticism of the fire department by saying they put their lives on the line for us every day, they're engaging in virtue-signalling.

Quote from: Haffrung;1095129Pretty much. There are two reasons why people publicly and conspicuously enforce group values:

1) To shame the transgressors into conforming to group norms.
2) To demonstrate that the person doing the enforcing is a trustworthy and upright member of the group.

...

The problem is that social media has massively incentivized reason 2. Publicly broadcasting your own moral righteousness, and your ability to detect transgressions and willingness to denounce them, is one of the primary ways people today - especially those who are extremely online - have of gaining social status.

2 is useful for individuals because it allows them to cement themselves as higher and more important in the chain of the group leadership. If you virtue signal enough and properly you'll get noticed and people will treat you like a leader.

Quote from: fixable;1095063My post doesn't mention anything about racism. My point is more directed towards the posts like this:


Gaydar is dumb and anyone who uses that term is a moron. The dumb post is here for reference: [url]https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40772-SJWs-are-Liars!-The-Hobby-Always-Welcomed-Everyone!&p=1093447&viewfull=1#post1093447[/url

Not only am I a moron. I also refuse to let the session around my kitchen table turn into a Pride festival. I am lord of my castle, my home is not somebody's LGBTQ demonstration. Within these walls my rules and my rules only apply. This is, in newspeak, my safespace from the outside madness. I'm heterosexual and all my friends are heterosexual. I don't have feminist cosplayers, genderfluids, furries or transpeople wearing muumuus in my gaming group. But I'm not a representative of the gaming industry, gamers or the people of this forum. I'm just me. And there are only two genders (male/female) in my world, the rest is delusion. Yes, I'm not only a moron, but an old-fashioned moron. Am I not entitled to be me? Must I bow before the bluehaired and woke Twitter army? Would it help to include people in the rpg hobby if I wore a garter belt and silk stockings? Or if I took a supporting shit for the rainbow-coloured LGBTQ cause in a gender neutral rest room?

I was born in 1972. When I grew up and started with roleplaying around 1984 there was no LGBTQ-movement in the Swedish rpg hobby. There certainly were gays and people were crossdressers/transvestites back then. But I don't think our parents would allow them to play with us 12 year olds. Times may have changed a whole lot but I haven't as much. Sometimes I wonder what's next on the woke agenda? Necrophiliacs in gaming ("Don't mind the rotten skull deepthroating my penis, guys. Hey, I brought cheetos and my character sheet.")? Pedo Pride Festivals? What's the next step, the next group to be included via angry Tweets?

As long as 'you can dance' to the Swedish national anthem -- "Dancing Queen," by ABBA -- you're a-ok by me. "... haa-ving the time of your liiiiife. oooh yeah..."

Quote from: Opaopajr;1095142As long as 'you can dance' to the Swedish national anthem -- "Dancing Queen," by ABBA -- you're a-ok by me. "... haa-ving the time of your liiiiife. oooh yeah..."

Lol, I don't know. Might feel risky. My favourite ABBA songs are these:

[video=youtube_share;wWQ7wrPyUe0]https://youtu.be/wWQ7wrPyUe0[/youtube]

and

[video=youtube_share;iUrzicaiRLU]https://youtu.be/iUrzicaiRLU[/youtube]

Any ABBA is good ABBA

Quote from: A5paperboy;1095151Any ABBA is good ABBA

I guess you're right. Btw when I watched the posted videos it struck me how ugly you could be as a guy and still make it in a pop band back then. If they ever invent a time machine, I will be the first in line to go back to those days. I might even be able to score in the 70's.

All those '70s music videos made me wonder how people watched them back in the heyday. I was of the VCR age and Mtv was just becoming a household name only a few years later. Yet these '70s videos look like super 8 stuff, ready for heavy tv or home reel rotation.

I wonder if the jet set gathered in homes to fire up the fondue, roll out the pink champagne & backgammon, and then for an afternoon delight sneak off to the projection room for some sweet accompanying music video BGM... :eek:

I am sure somewhere out there someone is finding this problematic... and exclusive. (SJW Mystery: "If you think what's being done is so bad, why do you want to be involved so badly?!")

Quote from: fixable;1095063Why do people 'flip out' if there are homosexual or trans-gender characters in the game? Again pointing to posts above. You are well meaning and reasonable people right?

If you're playing a game that's designed to explore your sexuality, then it makes perfect sense. If the game is supposed to explore, I dunno, say, heroic adventure, then a character's sexuality isn't included in the game. So yeah, it's just banner-waving. People get upset because they see that kind of empty virtue signaling bringing lots of harm to the world.

It's funny how "inclusive" people all presuppose that players are only inspired by playing characters of the same skin color, sexual preference, and genital makeup as the player themselves. Personally, I've played plenty of female characters over the years, and never once even stopped to think about my character's sexual preference or genital history ... because exploring sexuality isn't part of the games I play, and I don't want it to be.

Quote from: fixable;1095063Why do people 'flip out' if there are homosexual or trans-gender characters in the game? Again pointing to posts above. You are well meaning and reasonable people right?

Quote from: Zalman;1095161If you're playing a game that's designed to explore your sexuality, then it makes perfect sense. If the game is supposed to explore, I dunno, say, heroic adventure, then a character's sexuality isn't included in the game. So yeah, it's just banner-waving. People get upset because they see that kind of empty virtue signaling bringing lots of harm to the world.

This is utter nonsense. Sexuality (as opposed to the act of sex) is a part of everyday life -- and has  been included in most stories and games of heroic adventure. It's included just by having a shopkeeper and her husband, or a child's loving parents, or a possible romantic interest, and so forth. In D&D, there's sexuality in the earliest modules - from Steading of the Hill Giant Chief and Village of Hommlet and most other modules.

It's possible to play without it, by having characters be asexual beings only interested in gold and/or killing - but it's also normal for sexuality to come up, if just in things like a character's appreciative whistle at a barmaid, or similar. It's a regular part of background and immersion for me.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1095136I was born in 1972. When I grew up and started with roleplaying around 1984 there was no LGBTQ-movement in the Swedish rpg hobby. There certainly were gays and people were crossdressers/transvestites back then. But I don't think our parents would allow them to play with us 12 year olds. Times may have changed a whole lot but I haven't as much. Sometimes I wonder what's next on the woke agenda? Necrophiliacs in gaming ("Don't mind the rotten skull deepthroating my penis, guys. Hey, I brought cheetos and my character sheet.")? Pedo Pride Festivals? What's the next step, the next group to be included via angry Tweets?

I was born in 1970. For me, I learned about gay people from my Presbyterian church when I was younger than 12. A same-sex couple brought their adopted baby in for baptism, and I was confused about how two white men could have a black baby. I learned from that, though, and incorporated the knowledge and values in my life.

What I learned from my childhood was not to be a bigoted asshole. I raised my son with various straight and LGBT people around in games and events. Everyone were treated as regular people, as they are - with no talk about LGBT sex any more than about straight sex. When I talk to and get to know people, I find they're all just people with various different strengths and faults.

Earlier, you wrote:

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1093197I have no experience in playing rpgs with transsexuals or homosexuals. I have always played with friends that I know very well. I'm also a bit homophobic and would feel uncomfortable if a guy in a skirt or leather cap with studs wanted to join our gaming group, to be honest.

I'm glad you're up-front with your bigotry, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't like people who are opposed to my family and friends. Just like I'm opposed to Aglondir's ethno-nationalism and other people's views.

Exactly how much gay-sex was going on in Hommlet? And at the Steading of the Hill-Giant?... or are you equating homesexuality<>heterosexuality as setting assumption in all RPGs?

Or is that a projection of cultural relativism?