Quote from: rawma;1094940If they are not erroneous, step up and provide evidence. Besides 5 Stone Games (who announced his race suicide concern early on, but continued to post for two years), who was banned for being racist and how quickly? (Nobody has challenged "misogyny". Well done! "Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.")

Hey, we have you here. You've never been banned or even censured by the mods, IIRC. What does that mean, if we're going by "guilt by association"?

As for 5 Stone, I'd rather people talked about their ideas, no matter how kooky or mundane, because the space we give them to speak, is the kind of space that everyone with an opinion would want to speak. Remember, once gay activism was an unpopoular topic. Now, we have goddamn rainbow flags all over the place!

Quote from: Opaopajr;1094898Actually, what I find missing from this conversation is the internal resistance and conformity pressures within minority groups. If you actually talk to everyone you'll find they often feel like the odd duck out for doing nerdy things -- which is the good news as everyone into RPGs shares the flak for "being weird." But the level of social pressure within groups seems to vary between groups, and seems especially isolating for minorities from fellow minorities.

(In Sociology this is often referred to as expectations to be a paragon, be a representative for one's group to the entire world... One's own sin becomes the group sin and a risk to survival. So "being different" takes on a different threat urgency. It is an unfair pressure, but socializing does not have to conform to fairness or individualism logic. )

As far as I have seen SJWs are completely  blind to the hostility generated in poc communities now and then ,  especially African American communities. It is as if they have never heard of the label of Uncle Tom.

[video=youtube;ZcgyYd4Ev6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcgyYd4Ev6w[/youtube] 1:52
[video=youtube;42qsTwM-xCs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42qsTwM-xCs[/youtube]
[video=youtube;Zd4wXAUFAow]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd4wXAUFAow[/youtube]

Or as they're called in Britain "coconuts" (brown on the outside, white on the inside). I've had that levelled at me more than once, though mostly at school.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1094647Do you guys have transgenders in your rpg groups? It seems the rpg industry is full of them these days and I got quite alot of shit from such people on the Swedish forum. Don't get me wrong, but has it become trendy to become a transgender rpg nerd these days? I have noticed that quite a few of them have risen through the ranks and now get to be a part of the production of new rpgs, as scenario writers and such. They have quickly become people of great influence. Much of it is because they are transgenders in my book. But I could be wrong, of course. I'm just an old bald bigot.

I had one trans in my group for four years or so in the Nineties. Gaia had no problem playing with us until she decided that all leisure-time activity was frivolous and detracted from her need to change the world. When we would run into each other, she would ask about the game and seemed to remember it fondly. She was a male to female trans and all of the characters she ever played were women.

I had another one hang out with me and create a character. Sandy soloed the character several times in the wee hours of the all-night bookstore. Her character had been gender-switched by  a spell. One night, there was another player there and they both played a session until customers started coming in. Bruce is very old-fashioned and conservative but also polite. He said that he enjoyed playing with her and asked her why she didn't play with the group. She said that she was working up the courage but she never did. She was very shy of groups.

Quote from: Shasarak;1094953Please provide evidence of your purity to the committee together with your social media history where it will be assessed as to your suitability

As I recall, the standard for joining theRPGsite was to copy a word that was provided. Looking at the registration page now, it appears there's a captcha image to type, a simple arithmetic problem and agreeing to the rules. Are you calling for higher screening standards to provide you with the echo chamber of your dreams?

Or are you suggesting that I have ever posted something "obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws"? Citation required, but not by me; you can report it to the moderators. (Usually there's a link at the lower left of each post to report it; even in closed threads, apparently.)

Quote from: jeff37923;1094976So you can provide one guy as evidence of misogyny or racism out of how many thousands of members of theRPGSite?

The goalposts just shattered into splinters from this attempted move. YOU said that every such case was quickly banned; are YOU saying there's exactly one (who wasn't quickly banned)? I already referenced one who was declared racist by a moderator but never banned. It was in the thread that gave you the vapors and led to a 36 hour vacation on your fainting couch. I have no interest in having that person or anyone else banned; you are also the one who brought up banning as a solution.

Quote"A picture is worth a thousand words........"

So I've prompted you to spend 6000+ words on me in reply to my several hundred?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1094994Hey, we have you here. You've never been banned or even censured by the mods, IIRC. What does that mean, if we're going by "guilt by association"?

Who would I be associated with who you want to judge guilty, and guilty of what? :confused:

QuoteAs for 5 Stone, I'd rather people talked about their ideas, no matter how kooky or mundane, because the space we give them to speak, is the kind of space that everyone with an opinion would want to speak. Remember, once gay activism was an unpopoular topic. Now, we have goddamn rainbow flags all over the place!

And I am free to point out error and hypocrisy. It's not virtue signaling; it's the robust exchange of ideas.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1095023I had one trans in my group for four years or so in the Nineties. Gaia had no problem playing with us until she decided that all leisure-time activity was frivolous and detracted from her need to change the world. When we would run into each other, she would ask about the game and seemed to remember it fondly. She was a male to female trans and all of the characters she ever played were women.

I had another one hang out with me and create a character. Sandy soloed the character several times in the wee hours of the all-night bookstore. Her character had been gender-switched by  a spell. One night, there was another player there and they both played a session until customers started coming in. Bruce is very old-fashioned and conservative but also polite. He said that he enjoyed playing with her and asked her why she didn't play with the group. She said that she was working up the courage but she never did. She was very shy of groups.

FWIW, I hadn't played with any transgender players in the 80s and 90s, as far as I know. Currently, I have two transgender and one intersex people in my gaming groups. (I live in the SF Bay area, where most varieties of LGBT seem more common than the U.S. as a whole.) I also played for many years with someone whom I only found out later was transgender. None of them are particularly involved in online gaming groups or game design, and are pretty shy about going to communities or groups.

Quote from: rawma;1095042The goalposts just shattered into splinters from this attempted move. YOU said that every such case was quickly banned; are YOU saying there's exactly one (who wasn't quickly banned)? I already referenced one who was declared racist by a moderator but never banned. It was in the thread that gave you the vapors and led to a 36 hour vacation on your fainting couch. I have no interest in having that person or anyone else banned; you are also the one who brought up banning as a solution.

Nice tapdancing! You even added some snark for taste! :D

You have made the claim that TheRPGSite is a haven for racists and misogynists. The burden of proof is on you and I find your evidence sorely lacking. You Must Try Harder!

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Quote from: rawma;1095042So I've prompted you to spend 6000+ words on me in reply to my several hundred?

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Quote from: rawma;1095042The goalposts just shattered into splinters from this attempted move. YOU said that every such case was quickly banned; are YOU saying there's exactly one (who wasn't quickly banned)? I already referenced one who was declared racist by a moderator but never banned. It was in the thread that gave you the vapors and led to a 36 hour vacation on your fainting couch. I have no interest in having that person or anyone else banned; you are also the one who brought up banning as a solution.

Nice tapdancing! You even added some snark for taste! :D

You have made the claim that TheRPGSite is a haven for racists and misogynists. The burden of proof is on you and I find your evidence sorely lacking. You Must Try Harder!

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Quote from: rawma;1095042Who would I be associated with who you want to judge guilty, and guilty of what? :confused:

US! You accuse this site of being full of misogynists and racists, yet when asked, you were able to come up with one dude, who got banned. I can only assume the others means the rest of the posters here. Unless you're referring to yourself being a racist and misogynist?

Quotend I am free to point out error and hypocrisy. It's not virtue signaling; it's the robust exchange of ideas.

Wonderful! If only more people had that attitude.

Sorry been busy... I picked this post to elaborate.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093528But somehow not enough to you.



Wait, why is it my problem if someone doesn't have a group? Or are you claiming it's Racism!tm? So we as gamers aren't trully inclusive unless everybody has a group?

I'm sure I wasn't the only kid who got the Red Box and discovered this amazing game. The Mentzer Red Box was kind of like a gateway drug... it sure hooked me. Why is this all the sudden called out as racism? I guess you play with your own and my experiences is white suburbia. My post doesn't mention anything about racism. My point is more directed towards the posts like this:

QuoteBecause I've known them since I was 13 years old. 10 years old in one case. Besides, I have this little handy gadget:

Name:  gaydar1.jpg
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Gaydar is dumb and anyone who uses that term is a moron. The dumb post is here for reference: https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40772-SJWs-are-Liars!-The-Hobby-Always-Welcomed-Everyone!&p=1093447&viewfull=1#post1093447

QuoteSo you played a solo adventure? Are you telling us you couldn't find anybody to play? Back then how many kids you think learned the exact same way? And even today, if you're lucky you learn in a group with an "experienced" GM the rest form their all novice groups and learn by themselves. Why is this a bad thing or our fault?

I found plenty to play with. The point was I learned through the Red Box books (which was the whole intent of those books). Why is it a bad thing that others besides me get recognition in a game? Why do people 'flip out' if there are homosexual or trans-gender characters in the game? Again pointing to posts above. You are well meaning and reasonable people right?

QuoteSo at age ten you were a badass fighter killing Dragons in real life?
Do you know many of us play as females? Why can't a girl play as a man?
Why should the sex of a character give them script shields?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rH-u9lUZCQ

Whoa what? Not sure how this is relevant. None of this makes any sense. Not sure where you reach these conclusions.

QuoteAgain so what? Go find a group.



Exactly who are we trying to force to play as we say? How are we doing that? I demand evidence of this.



Funny you mention this, we don't really play anti-sjw games (that would be boring) but SJWs do play anti-"fascist" games, and they define as fascist anybody to the right of Mao.

Edit: The proof is in the pudding as they say

Fair enough... this was a mistake on my part. None of the games you play are anti-SJW or whatever. I apologize for that.

Quote from: fixable;1095063Why is it a bad thing that others besides me get recognition in a game? Why do people 'flip out' if there are homosexual or trans-gender characters in the game? Again pointing to posts above. You are well meaning and reasonable people right?

If you don't mind, I'll give you my own answer.

I'm going to assume that you aren't here just to virtue signal like rawma is, so I think that an honest explanation is in order. I'll take your questions one by one and answer.

Quote from: fixable;1095063Why is it a bad thing that others besides me get recognition in a game?

It isn't a bad thing to do so, in and of itself. It is when that recognition is done in a ham-fisted manner that assumes that tabletop RPG gamers were not already an open and welcoming group in general or that the recognition needs to be shoehorned into a product that disregards that products theme or setting just to be considered "woke" (which is considered pandering).

Quote from: fixable;1095063Why do people 'flip out' if there are homosexual or trans-gender characters in the game?

They don't if those characters make sense in the game as part of the setting or the plot of the adventure. Do some react negatively? Yes. Are those a majority of the hobby and are reacting out of bigotry? No.

Quote from: fixable;1095063You are well meaning and reasonable people right?

We like to think so.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095070If you don't mind, I'll give you my own answer.

I'm going to assume that you aren't here just to virtue signal like rawma is, so I think that an honest explanation is in order. I'll take your questions one by one and answer.

Thanks, I'm going to respond with some honest questions:

I'm not sure what the definition of 'virtue signaling' is. Do you have a clear definition? I see the term used here and elsewhere. Personally, I see it as a term mostly used to dismiss an opposing viewpoint.

QuoteIt isn't a bad thing to do so, in and of itself. It is when that recognition is done in a ham-fisted manner that assumes that tabletop RPG gamers were not already an open and welcoming group in general or that the recognition needs to be shoehorned into a product that disregards that products theme or setting just to be considered "woke" (which is considered pandering).

But who decides whether it is ham-fisted and pandering or not? Who decides if something is 'woke'? Why does including such assume a lack of welcoming to the game? It sounds kind of hypocritical to me. If you are open and welcoming, then why the resistance to non-binary or transgender characters? Where is the line drawn that it is done for 'virtual signaling'? What do you consider an 'acceptable' use of such characters?

QuoteThey don't if those characters make sense in the game as part of the setting or the plot of the adventure. Do some react negatively? Yes. Are those a majority of the hobby and are reacting out of bigotry? No.

Why do they have to 'make sense in the game as part of the setting or the plot of the adventure'? My point is there shouldn't have to be a justification... they can just be. If you don't like it, you can totally change it... I've changed NPC's to different races, genders as I desired for my own games... why does anyone care about this when any DM can make of the NPCs as they desire?

QuoteWe like to think so.

Fair enough. I agree.

Quote from: fixable;1095074But who decides whether it is ham-fisted and pandering or not? Who decides if something is 'woke'? Why does including such assume a lack of welcoming to the game? It sounds kind of hypocritical to me. If you are open and welcoming, then why the resistance to non-binary or transgender characters? Where is the line drawn that it is done for 'virtual signaling'? What do you consider an 'acceptable' use of such characters?

When you remember the adventure from the Mentzer Red Box do you know for certain if Bargle or Aleena were binary or non-binary or transgender or black or white or asian?

Was it exclusionary for Frank not to say?

Quote from: rawma;1094758(snip)  I was commenting on a reference to "Greyhawk pretty much right out of the gate", and the original Greyhawk supplement has a lot of the default "he". (snip)

Don't forget, the default he/him was (and arguably still is) correct English grammar for centuries.

Quote from: Kiero;1094864Maybe it's a UK v US thing, but race really isn't an issue in gaming in Britain. Seriously, I've been doing this over 25 years, and no one cares that I'm brown. It's never been a thing. (snip)

I'm Australian by birth and have lived in Asia for 20+ years. Race has never been an issue for me or my friends: We're not Americans. Why should I feel guilty that a borderline failed state still can't come to terms with its own history?

rawma, keep in mind that you would've been shut down long ago on TBP. You can say your piece here. That's as inclusive as it needs to be.