Quote from: cranebump;1094832Never said it wasn't. Just asserted that, welcoming or not, decades ago, it seemed a white guy's hobby. It's also okay for others to play, as well. However, I do think it's hard to assert "well, everyone was always welcome" without ignoring the demographics. The presence of change there, diversity-wise, implies a more, um, monolithic population at one time. In the big scheme of things, social progress in gaming is small potatoes. I think, though, we can agree that, whether it was white guys mainly or not, if you were a gamer decades ago, and you tried to explain what it was, non-gaming folks thought you were a bit strange. Today? Not so much. Or rather, as much? That seems to me what this is all about. Gamers were seen as weird folk. Now, weirdness is okay.

I think the reason why we can assert that everyone was always welcome* is that some demographics had the perception you mention afterwards that D&D was for smelly nerds.
Things change, gaming has become pretty mainstream. There's a lot less peer pressure to avoid the nerdy hobbies.

*Your statement. Absolutes are probably not accurate here.

QuoteHell, is there such a thing as weird these days?

I admit, I'm scratching my head. I think being conservative is the new counter-culture. So maybe that?

Quote from: rawma;1094821So I take it you agree that jeff37923 was wrong, if not dishonest?

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Quote from: rawma;1094821What, no defense of your erroneous assertions about theRPGsite's response to racists?

Why? My assertions are not erroneous and the only reason why you are here is role-play the crusader striking a blow for social justice. Even if I made some kind of "defense", you would only say that it is just another reason for you to hoist yourself up upon that cross and die for the sake of intersectionality in the hope that by dying you will bring about our redemption.

Quote from: rawma;1094821I started lurking at the end of the 5e D&D playtest and posting after the PHB was released but before the other core books (when some posters here had seen early copies). This site is capable of good discussion of gaming (even jeff37923 - that hunka hunka burnin' love that I so desire, if only Senpai would see me as I want him to see me! ) when it's not obsessing over that other RPG website or stupid political crap (you do realize that the fate or survival of the RPG hobby, no matter how dire, says nothing about the fate or survival of civilization?). One of the moderators (before they all quit) expressed disappointment that posters did not step up to dispute false information posted, and I am happy to contribute in my small way to the campaign to avoid being an echo chamber.

Dance monkey! Dance!
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Quote from: rawma;1094821But if you don't like my posts, you can take another 36 hour vacation. Free speech for the win no matter what you decide.

Well, since I already live rent free 24/7 inside of your head, vacations are not allowed for me.  So I'll just sum up your argument below.

[video=youtube;tAh8rNsjWt4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAh8rNsjWt4[/youtube]

Quote from: Zalman;1094854I guess ignoring "demographics", which apparently equates to "skin color", is easier for some than others. And for some reason it's always white people that are singled out. Every time. Nobody pontificates about having to ignore basketball's "demographics", but gaming is badwhitefun.

I would add gender in with skin color, and would assert that the gender component is at least as important in considering the question. Didn't say it was badwrongfun. Just stating who seems to dominate the hobby. Also stated that the demographics seem to have changed. This is not a value judgment. Just an observation.

As for basketball, if you can play, you can play, at least on the non-pro courts. I know this because I used to. A lot. Too old and out of shape now. But it's a shitty comparison because basketball requires some developed physical conditioning, and a ton of skill honing, whereas gaming just requires an ass to sit on and the ability to talk (which, at my current age, I appreciate).

As for white people, particularly males, being singled out, it's taken a long to be called to account for some things. People who formerly couldn't say anything now feel they can, and they so do. Some folks can't handle that, though, so they label every critic an SJW, then bitch and moan they're being unfairly targeted. It's like the idiots who think Christianity is under attack. So, everyone's aggrieved, and someone else is to blame. No admissions are made, no common ground is achieved, and the world belongs to people who enjoy being pissed off all the time. it's ridiculous really. All it does is drive moderate voices into silence, clearing the space for the self-aggrandizing, blowhard extremists, leaving us with the sound of two bricks slapping together.

Maybe it's a UK v US thing, but race really isn't an issue in gaming in Britain. Seriously, I've been doing this over 25 years, and no one cares that I'm brown. It's never been a thing.

As a collective, gamers are far more accepting of "difference" than the general population. Mostly because all that is required to take part is an interest in this rather strange activity. Being interested and enthusiastic tends to overcome all other factors.

Quote from: cranebump;1094832Just asserted that, welcoming or not, decades ago, it seemed a white guy's hobby.

Just because most of the player base in my neck of the woods in the mid-1980s was male does not mean a systematic campaign of exclusion was being waged by us to get other POC or female gamers from the hobby.

Of course their were some and perhaps still do want to only play with white male gamers and keep others other. They are nowhere near a large a group as the SJW narrative like to imply that it is.

In the 80s we never turned away POC or female gamers the second in my neck of the woods was rare. Not because of lack of POC in schools or outside of it. As female gamers their seemed a lack of interest and with the first no interest in gaming let alone wanting to hang out with gamers. To many women of that time we were social pariahs. Not knowing that the geek and nerds woud end up being their bosses and the jocks also would work for them too. No gay players in my group or if they were in the closest. In the late 90s and early 2000s we began to see more gay people entering our group. We welcomed them. No transgender gamers yet.

Either way it is way too easy to say "well it looks like it was just a white male hobby to me". Implying no effort was made to recruit POC, gays, trans and female gamers. You know what else many who spout that nonsense ignore. One can't force anyone to game with anybody. If I put an ad out to recruit people for a new campaign and only white (mostly straight) males answer. I'm not going to put my campaign on hold for 3-5 years to get other non-white non-straight members.

Social Justice Wankers are convinced that the only reason why there are not more minorities in gaming is because they would be unwelcome, howling about racism and misogyny are popular lies for them. The truth is that there aren't enough minorities in gaming for their taste because most minorities are not interested in the hobby (just like the vast majority of straight white men aren't interested). The kicker to all this SJW weeping and wailing is that it is turning off those who might be interested in trying the hobby, because who in their right mind wants to walk into the same level of acrimony that is being exhibited here and especially on other forums?

Face it fucknuckles, this social pressure campaign against the majority of the hobby has helped to drive away the exact people that they wanted in the hobby.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1094825we should cook and eat Jeff while dancing to Abba.

Cooking and eating Jeff is fine.

Abba however, is a hate crime.

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Quote from: Blankman;1094791The rpg hobby/industry does not have a high threshold for participation. You don't Have to put in 20 years waiting for a promotion before you get the chance to be a "big name". You can just make shit and write shit and if people think it's good, rock and roll. There's like one transgendered rpg writer in Sweden who has had a recent meteoric rise, but she puts in the work too, writing scenarios for various publishers, running scenarios at conventions, holding panels at conventions etc. You want to meet the movers and shakers of the rpg hobby in Sweden? Go to GothCon, they'll pretty much all be there. Network a bit, show off your stuff, and if it is any good, something could happen really fast.

I must be frank when I say that I dislike that person with a passion. She gave a thumbs up when I was banned from the biggest Swedish rpg forum there is. That site is pure leftist quagmire. I think that person has gotten a seat in Sveroks nominating committee. She's also the head of some gaming group called The QueerNerds. She is a frequent speaker at gaming conventions like you said, rubbing elbows with the right people. But do you think that person would have gotten to where she is if she had been a white, conservative male and SD-party member like me? A bald, fat guy born in 1972? I've been gaming since 1984. I'm not cool, extrovert and popular. I have anxiety issues and agoraphobia. I'm not a feminist or a genderfluid LGBTQ-supporter. Hell, I'm not even friendly. I'm a toxic male who grew up in a world of old Swedish rpgs, Schwarzenegger and horror movies, Marvel, porn magazines and heavy metal.

There's also another matter with my political affiliation I mentioned. Did you know that if you happen to be actively involved in the Sweden Democrats in any way (which I'm not due to my mental health) you will be excluded from any kind of position in Sverok? You can't even start a local gaming group, register it with Sverok and get a small fund like every other Sverok-connected group if your acting chairman is active in the Sweden Democrats. It's ok to be a communist though. It's always ok to be a commie in Sweden. Swedens biggest umbrella organization for gamers is as leftist as they come and will not give monetary to support rpg groups who don't "share the same values" as them.

With that in play, being a transgender with a high position in Sverok and someone who likes to be in the spotlight, attending gaming conventions, participating in  panel talks, rubbing elbows, fighting for LGBTQ-inclusion, being a professed "horror expert" and most likely sharing similar leftist views as the big names in the Swedish rpg scene - well what could stop her from getting her suckers stuck to everything in the Swedish rpg world? Shitty writing? Nah, I doubt that.

I wrote you a longer reply (but it got lost when I pressed Go Advanced), with her popping up in the FB groups for the upcoming Swedish Chill (Chock) and the upcoming Swedish rendition of CoC. She's gotten the chance to write for both (well, both games will be published by the same company). So now Chock and Swedish CoC scenarios coming from her will get a treatment in the genderblender, just like her adventure for Tales from the Loop got. Bravo. That's just what horror games need. I'm really looking forward playing a genderfluid, polyamorous, crossdressing Peter Cushing waving islamic prayer beads in the Swedish version of Chill. True dread. True dread, indeed.

In the FB forums for the Swedish CoC there was a request from the creators on suggestions for Swedish based Cthulhu scenarios. Among alot of stuff I proposed a Cthulhian twist on the historic Kautokeino rebellion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kautokeino_rebellion), where a group of religious freaks (sami converts) started a mini crusade up north, murdered two people (including a police man), flogged a priest and set fire to buildings. They were eventually stopped by other sami.

Naturally my transgender nemesis was on it like a fly on shit, stating how sensitive the issue was with portraying the sami in that way (it was just a group of 35 adults and 22 kids under 13), that we should avoid doing what Lovecraft did when describing minorities, etc. That wasn't my point at all. My point was that there could be a horror story to extract from the events, where a Mythos entitity made the sect members do what they did. That was all, but she and another person kept harping on about how sensitive the issue was and all that jazz. If I had begun a serious debate about it, I would probably have been banned from that group as well.

Look, you just said it yourself. You are not cool, extrovert or popular, you are not even friendly. The person you are talking about is extroverted, popular and friendly (cool is in the eye of the beholder). That goes a long way when freelancing in a small industry where personal connections are paramount. She also seems to have a great ability to sell herself and her stuff. And again, this is one person. I can't think of any other prominent Swedish adventure writers who are also transgender. In fact I can only think of one other prominent Swedish adventure writer. Most are famous as game designers who also maybe write adventures for their games.

Other big names in Sweden's rpg scene? Well, you've got Krister Sundelin who has been active in the hobby forever, wrote for Neogames in the 90s, constantly draws pinups/nudes of his company mascot and ran the Playelf gallery on his website for many years (basically a fantasy Playboy, but all drawn and without the articles). The guys at The Iron Ring (now a part of Free League) have been involved in stuff since the 80s. Anders Blixt is one of the OGs of the Swedish roleplaying scene and has been active forever (and is highly anti-communist as far as I know). The Gillbring couple have been publishing their Western rpg since the early 90s. There are some new faces yeah, it happens, but it isn't suddenly all young and hip lgbt people in the Swedish rpg scene. And there are enough people left from the old days that you could be there too, if you wanted to and had the talent and interpersonal skills.

It just sounds like you have a beef with one particular person and are deciding to make it about her identity in general rather than her personally. I'm not particularly enamored with her scenarios (good GM though), but you know what? If you don't like em, don't buy em. It isn't like she's writing the games themselves, just an adventure or so for each.

Quote from: cranebump;1094862...and the world belongs to people who enjoy being pissed off all the time. it's ridiculous really. All it does is drive moderate voices into silence, clearing the space for the self-aggrandizing, blowhard extremists...

We seem to agree about the symptoms but not the cause. I think that it's a lack of pushing back against obnoxious behavior as long as it's dressed up in wokeness that most often leads to the world belonging to people who enjoy being pissed off.

Yeah It's annoying to have people that are entryists and don't actually play.

Like, a good amount of my players are SJWs, but they play, and they completely disagree with the "woke critique" of DND.
At the same time I am on many servers where people who never played think that it's a valid critique.

At the end of the day it depends on the person, but I'll never take my advice from someone who's only experience with DND is watching critical role and posting DND memes on Tumblr.

Quote from: A5paperboy;1094881At the end of the day it depends on the person, but I'll never take my advice from someone who's only experience with DND is watching critical role and posting DND memes on Tumblr.

I am stealing this one!

Quote from: Blankman;1094871Look, you just said it yourself. You are not cool, extrovert or popular, you are not even friendly. The person you are talking about is extroverted, popular and friendly (cool is in the eye of the beholder). That goes a long way when freelancing in a small industry where personal connections are paramount. She also seems to have a great ability to sell herself and her stuff. And again, this is one person. I can't think of any other prominent Swedish adventure writers who are also transgender. In fact I can only think of one other prominent Swedish adventure writer. Most are famous as game designers who also maybe write adventures for their games.

Other big names in Sweden's rpg scene? Well, you've got Krister Sundelin who has been active in the hobby forever, wrote for Neogames in the 90s, constantly draws pinups/nudes of his company mascot and ran the Playelf gallery on his website for many years (basically a fantasy Playboy, but all drawn and without the articles). The guys at The Iron Ring (now a part of Free League) have been involved in stuff since the 80s. Anders Blixt is one of the OGs of the Swedish roleplaying scene and has been active forever (and is highly anti-communist as far as I know). The Gillbring couple have been publishing their Western rpg since the early 90s. There are some new faces yeah, it happens, but it isn't suddenly all young and hip lgbt people in the Swedish rpg scene. And there are enough people left from the old days that you could be there too, if you wanted to and had the talent and interpersonal skills.

It just sounds like you have a beef with one particular person and are deciding to make it about her identity in general rather than her personally. I'm not particularly enamored with her scenarios (good GM though), but you know what? If you don't like em, don't buy em. It isn't like she's writing the games themselves, just an adventure or so for each.

I believe myself to be on the friendly side of Erik Granström, Tobias Tranell (map maker) and probably Anders Blixt and Thomas Arfert. I'm very active and quite respected on //www.erebaltor.se which is a site/forum for the game world for old Drakar och Demoner.

If you're Swedish and visit //www.rollspel.nu you'll soon find that the site is run by a coven of leftists and feminists. Hell, there's even a Flashback thread on how infected that rpg site is. If you think rpg.net is bad, you haven't seen anything. They even have a feminist manifesto stickered in the forum. I have a beef with many on that site, including Magnus Seter who runs it. I have a burning dislike for most of them. There have been a group of people who supported me via private messages but I seldom got open support on that site when they ganged up on me with their SJW shit.

I have nothing bad to say about the Gillbrings (I like Western IV) apart from the fact that their only costumer forum is at the mercy of that leftist rpg site. That's just bad business, really.

Btw, Järnringen had nothing to do with the old Mutant and Äventyrsspel. They started around 2002.

"And there are enough people left from the old days that you could be there too, if you wanted to and had the talent and interpersonal skills." The old guard contribute very little to the new RPGs that are being made. They might write a scenario or two, that's about it. Granström would probably be the exception with Forbidden Lands since he wrote alot of background material.

I will send in scenarios to Eloso Förlag after I have witnessed the results of their Swedish versions of Chill and Call of Cthulhu. They might fuck it all up. I will register at DriveThruRpg too and try to sell English scenarios too when the stars are right. But you shouldn't confuse talent with rubbing elbows with inclusive game publishers and other interpersonal skills. You can have talent and still be a loner and top notch bastard like me. I do watch kitten videos on Youtube though and I once saved an unknown latino girl's favourite doll. I have also saved two cats that fell from my white trash neighbours balcony. Those are the things that still keep me humane I guess. Otherwise I would hover around like the Eye of Sauron or walk upon cloven hooves.

Iron Ring the company no, but the people who founded that company were active and doing fan things for games since at least the early nineties I believe (it's been over ten years since I talked to them about this). As for other activity, Sundelin has two rpgs currently in print, Anders Blixt just announced a new rpg, the Gillbrings are working on their translation of Western despite cancer etc etc. So the old guard is plenty active I would say.

Rollspel.nu I don't hang out at, it never seemed interesting to me. Not my type of game being discussed mostly. But I checked it out and mostly saw a bunch of people, including who I presume to be you, acting like a bunch assholes.

As for talent, interpersonal skills are a necessary component of it, at least if you want to be able to sell your stuff.

Actually, what I find missing from this conversation is the internal resistance and conformity pressures within minority groups. If you actually talk to everyone you'll find they often feel like the odd duck out for doing nerdy things -- which is the good news as everyone into RPGs shares the flak for "being weird." But the level of social pressure within groups seems to vary between groups, and seems especially isolating for minorities from fellow minorities.

(In Sociology this is often referred to as expectations to be a paragon, be a representative for one's group to the entire world... One's own sin becomes the group sin and a risk to survival. So "being different" takes on a different threat urgency. It is an unfair pressure, but socializing does not have to conform to fairness or individualism logic. )