Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1093760I'm saying that shallow representations included for woke cookies have a deleterious effect on the self-image of the minorities they're supposed to support, and only appeal to a very specific set of aggressively obnoxious left wing nutballs who demand constant validation from their entertainment products and lash out when they don't get it. These are the folks who went after Mark Diaz Truman (a latino designer) for how latino characters are represented in Cartel, and Mike Pondsmith (a black designer) over how black characters are represented in Cyberpunk. They do not care about intent, context, or enabling minorities to represent themselves, only that a thing is represented in a way they can interpret as offensive.



For it to have been due to setting drift would have meant they got past the internal problems to continue publishing in the first place. The failure was not due to the game's lack of popularity, but in the company's mismanagement, and it's one of the best examples of * Get * Woke * Go * Broke I've seen to date. To me 7s2e is proof that it simply isn't possible to use existing cultures as inspiration and completely avoid offense, and trying to do so by paying [STRIKE]extortionists[/STRIKE] consultants will ruin you.

Related, the Filipino designer Tobie Abad who worked on Pirate Nations (silver ENnie for 'Best Supplement') had their successfully funded #Kickstarter unceremoniously cancelled after being accused of 'abuse' on #Facebook, and effectively shut down their #Patreon on June 2nd of this year. Sadly I think it unlikely we will ever see them back.

Again, these people do not give a fuck about minorities or even their own minority status should they happen to have such (and if not they often manufacture it) beyond how woke it makes them look. And this sort of unhealthy social environment is at least as responsible for the increase in anxiety and suicide we're seeing as deliberate bullying is.

I mean shitlords are a problem too, but at least you know where you stand with them.

I am missing your point. The Filipino designer (Tony Abad) seems to have an issue with his local group, not because of his race. And I don't see why blacks need to accept the work of another black designer just because the designer is black. Designers get criticized all the time and there are lots of places and cultures a black designer could be from. There is no magical ability conferred on anyone to understand all people that share a common skin tone with them.

I see zero proof of "shallow representation" causing any harm, just a statement from you. I see plenty of people posting that the art direction in 5e was appreciated. Plenty of people bitching about different things, but I don't see where you are getting harm in that the art depicts women and men as different class examples.

Despite your claims of harm, there are plenty of people that comment that they like it and it makes them feel more attached to the game.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1093846I am missing your point. The Filipino designer (Tony Abad) seems to have an issue with his local group, not because of his race. And I don't see why blacks need to accept the work of another black designer just because the designer is black. Designers get criticized all the time and there are lots of places and cultures a black designer could be from. There is no magical ability conferred on anyone to understand all people that share a common skin tone with them.

I see zero proof of "shallow representation" causing any harm, just a statement from you. I see plenty of people posting that the art direction in 5e was appreciated. Plenty of people bitching about different things, but I don't see where you are getting harm in that the art depicts women and men as different class examples.

Despite your claims of harm, there are plenty of people that comment that they like it and it makes them feel more attached to the game.

Wait, are you saying speech doesn't cause harm? Because it sure looks like that's what you're saying. Remember that art is also free speech.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1093627I like how the evidence of "objectionable radical leftist" rpg content turned this topic from argument to how game-worthy such a setting premise would be. I like it even better when I read it on my Apple products. Keep up the gaming talk, guys!

Pretty sure theres been a few tries before with this or that kingdom in various games. But nothing comes to mind right off the bat as a good example?

Quote from: jhkim;1093836OK, but this dodges the question about what are shallow representations for woke cookies. Without mind-reading the creators, how can I tell what these are? Can you give some examples? Do you think the 5E core books examples of this?

The 5e D&D books don't give shallow representations of human ethnic 'minorities', human ethnicities are barely discussed at all.  Sexual minorities well there is that one paragraph about playing a man trapped in a woman's body that took flak from the SJWs as well as the Edgelords.

I generally think the 5e PHB represents diversity about as tastefully & inoffensively as it possibly could. I'd like a few more white human male fighter type depictions, but there is a white human male as the barbarian illustration so that's something.

I think the diversity of 5e has very little if anything to do with the current popularity.  A bigger factor is probably that everything geek and nerd is currently in fashion.  I mean, one of the biggest tv shows in recent history is basically geek blackface and people fucking loved it.

As for 7th Sea 2e, I thought it did what Wick wanted it to do really well and never really dove too far into the diversity and inclusivity well.  The problem, IMO, was the Kickstarter.  For $60 I got:

• Every 7th Sea 1e book in pdf
• The 2e core book in pdf and in hard copy
• Every 2e book that's come out since in pdf

So basically after buying the core book I never had to spend another dime on the game line.  That's not a great way to keep your business going.

Quote from: rgalex;1093914I think the diversity of 5e has very little if anything to do with the current popularity.  A bigger factor is probably that everything geek and nerd is currently in fashion.

Yep. It's been swinging that way since home computers became ubiquitous, and certain famous nerds became billionaires.

Also, Stranger Things.

Quote from: jhkimOK, but this dodges the question about what are shallow representations for woke cookies. Without mind-reading the creators, how can I tell what these are? Can you give some examples? Do you think the 5E core books examples of this?

Quote from: S'mon;1093905The 5e D&D books don't give shallow representations of human ethnic 'minorities', human ethnicities are barely discussed at all.  Sexual minorities well there is that one paragraph about playing a man trapped in a woman's body that took flak from the SJWs as well as the Edgelords.

I generally think the 5e PHB represents diversity about as tastefully & inoffensively as it possibly could. I'd like a few more white human male fighter type depictions, but there is a white human male as the barbarian illustration so that's something.

I don't consider "tasteful and inoffensive" to be a positive for me personally -- but I understand it's a successful way to market. And I didn't have a problem with it, which was what they were going for.

Do you feel, like Anon Adderlan, like there harmful shallow representations for woke cookies in gaming? What would be your examples of such? My impression is that the stuff considered most offensive comes from authors who are true believers, not authors who are just throwing stuff in to appease. But that's just an impression, of course.

Quote from: jhkim;1094091I don't consider "tasteful and inoffensive" to be a positive for me personally -- but I understand it's a successful way to market. And I didn't have a problem with it, which was what they were going for.

Do you feel, like Anon Adderlan, like there harmful shallow representations for woke cookies in gaming? What would be your examples of such? My impression is that the stuff considered most offensive comes from authors who are true believers, not authors who are just throwing stuff in to appease. But that's just an impression, of course.

Harmful shallow representations for woke cookies ...I find a lot of Paizo LOOK HOW WOKE WE ARE stuff annoying, but it only harms their bottom line when I don't buy their product. I don't think it causes any moral/spiritual harm.

It's fair to say our tables, IRL, have probably always been accepting, especially when you consider how marginalized gamers were, at one time. I think it's also fair to say there wasn't much overt representation of diversity in the available materials until recent times. It's no bother to me if companies want to pitch their inclusivity.

Quote from: cranebump;1094110It's fair to say our tables, IRL, have probably always been accepting, especially when you consider how marginalized gamers were, at one time. I think it's also fair to say there wasn't much overt representation of diversity in the available materials until recent times. It's no bother to me if companies want to pitch their inclusivity.

Mekton II, circa 1987. Pretty diverse.

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It isn't that it is bad for a company to pitch its diversity. It is bad for a company to lie about how the hobby was an unwelcoming place for minorities beforehand in order to make themselves look better by virtue signalling - case in point D&D 5e's ham-fisted declaration of inclusivity and Mike Mearl's virtue signalling.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094130Mekton II, circa 1987. Pretty diverse.

Racist cover.  The white guy is standing in front of the minorities and the wimminz.

Quote from: kythri;1094131Racist cover.  The white guy is standing in front of the minorities and the wimminz.

Racist against mecha too, since the giant robot is in the background!

Quote from: kythri;1094131Racist cover.  The white guy is standing in front of the minorities and the wimminz.

Yeah, but it even covers the forgotten minority (i.e., those left-handed bastards!).

Quote from: cranebump;1094110It's fair to say our tables, IRL, have probably always been accepting, especially when you consider how marginalized gamers were, at one time. I think it's also fair to say there wasn't much overt representation of diversity in the available materials until recent times. It's no bother to me if companies want to pitch their inclusivity.

Uhhh... There wasnt? Really? You must not have played many RPGs at all then.

Greyhawk pretty much right out the gate. Or at least by the time of the boxed set. And As Jeff points out above. Mekton. Theres lots of examples. People just werent virtue signalling it.