Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1088961Seems like yet another case of 'polyamory' gone wrong.

This is why you should never get involved in a relationship with emotional needy people. Friends and allies like these are worse than enemies, and as much as I like polyamory in theory, it's still a huge red flag in practice.

   Polyamory almost never works in practice, suggesting the theory is deeply flawed. Read Genesis sometime.

Man, you guys are funny. If you really think adultery, paedophilia, and lawlessness are more common in 'progressive cesspools' like Seattle than in salt-of-the-earth Idaho or Kentucky, you're fucking deluded.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-02-11/what-is-the-divorce-rate-by-state

Oh look, divorce rates are highest in Arkansas, Alabama, Kentucky, Oklahoma, and Idaho.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_religiosity

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-most-dangerous-states-in-the-u-s.html

And when we compare state religiosity with crime, we find the 10 most religious states are also some of the most crime-ridden (violent crime ranking in brackets):

Alabama (7)
Louisiana (5)
Tennessee (4)
Mississippi (36)
Oklahoma (14)
Texas (17)
Kentucky (44)
Arkansas (6)
West Virginia (27)
South Carolina (10)

Conversely, the 10 least religious states are also some of the safest:

Vermont (49)
New Hampshire (48)
Massachusetts (23)
Maine (50)
Washington (32)
Connecticut (46)
Montana (37)
Oregon (26)
Alaska (1)
New York (24)

As much as the dogmatic self-regard of SJWs is hard to stomach, the reactionary know-nothing tirades you guys vent here are no better. Two sides of the same coin.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1089001Polyamory almost never works in practice, suggesting the theory is deeply flawed. Read Genesis sometime.

Greetings!

LOL! Very good, Armchair Gamer! I agree. In discussing such things like "Polyamoury" becoming the fashionable thing in today's society, I always remind my friends that throughout the Bible, even when such is otherwise *legal*--the whole lets have multiple partners just never works out. Even when it isn't the husband suggesting it, but the wife--ala Sarah and Haggar--emotions change down the road, and it always ends up in resentment and hatred, all the way around.

In one of my history classes, we discussed how like, 2500 years ago, a Greek wife had her beloved husband's gravestone inscribed with "All of our life, he loved only me, his wife." The professor made the point that having multiple wives and concubines was legal and permissable at the time in Greek society, and for a Greek wife to purposely have such an inscription made upon her husband's gravestone was a huge statement of intense devotion and respect--and revealed how deeply meaningful and important it was to this Greek wife that her husband loved only her. The subtext of course being, even way back then, monogamy mattered. Monagamy is something that is deeply powerful, and meaningful, whether you are a noble or a peasant.

I'm also reminded of an old story of ancient Rome. An elder Roman husband passed away, and left his wife as the Mistress of everything--their lands, animals, wealth, slaves, and everything. The day after the husband's funeral, the Roman wife had her husband's favourite concubine for the last many years brought before her. The Roman wife, normally serene and happy--had the concubine brutally tortured and killed, right before her. She participated, as well as observed every step of such, face to face. While her husband lived, the concubine was safe. After his death, however, the Roman wife poured out her wrath against her ruthlessly, and unflinchingly.

People don't like their mate fucking around with other people. Whenever you embrace that--even when beforehand everyone *seems* all cool with it or approving--afterwards, it seems to open up doors to uncontrollable emotions and passions that can either be the end of the relationship, or otherwise prove to be fatal.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1088961And never, ever, get involved with anyone who has trouble emotionally differentiating you from your D&D characters.

Quote from: Haffrung;1089003And when we compare state religiosity with crime, we find the 10 most religious states are also some of the most crime-ridden (violent crime ranking in brackets):

Alabama (7)
Louisiana (5)
Tennessee (4)
Mississippi (36)
Oklahoma (14)
Texas (17)
Kentucky (44)
Arkansas (6)
West Virginia (27)
South Carolina (10)

Conversely, the 10 least religious states are also some of the safest:

Vermont (49)
New Hampshire (48)
Massachusetts (23)
Maine (50)
Washington (32)
Connecticut (46)
Montana (37)
Oregon (26)
Alaska (1)
New York (24)

As much as the dogmatic self-regard of SJWs is hard to stomach, the reactionary know-nothing tirades you guys vent here are no better. Two sides of the same coin.

Where are you getting your data from?

The examples you provide, you're claiming that Alaska is one of the least religious, but one of the safest.

The Wikipedia link you provide confirms that Alaska is one of the least religious (at least, according to the article), but the worldatlas link you provide shows that Alaska is the most dangerous for violent crime.

Likewise, Maine is one of the least religious (per the Wikipedia article), neck-in-neck with Alaska, but is the safest state (per worldatlas).

So, bunk?  Please, if I've misread something, correct me.

The Wikipedia article includes some US territories, and therefore ranks American Samoa as #1 for religiosity, and ranks Alaska #52 (followed only by Massachusetts, Washington, New Hampshire and Vermont.

Likewise, the worldatlas site ranks the five least dangerous states as Connecticut (#46), Virginia (#47), New Hampshire (#48), Vermont (#49) and Maine (#50).

I'm not sure what the numbers you noted next to the states necessarily mean.

For example, you have Oregon as (26), yet Wikipedia ranks Oregon as 27 by population, 50 by religiosity and worldatlas has Oregon as 37 on the danger meter.  WTF does 26 represent?

Please explain your methodology.  Some stuff lines up with your claims (i.e. Vermont), other is way off (i.e. Alaska).

tl;dr:

Ultimately, if I'm reading correctly, your sources really prove nothing.  Per your sources:

Maine:  One of the lowest for religiosity, one of the lowest for crime
Alaska:  Lower even than Maine for relgiosity, but #1 highest for crime.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1089001Polyamory almost never works in practice, suggesting the theory is deeply flawed. Read Genesis sometime.

From what I've read of studies, current polyamorous relationships have a divorce rate much higher than monogamy (up to 90%), which roughly matches my personal experience. On the other hand, I know some people who seem to be part of the 10% whose relationships work out. Monogamous marriages often fail as well. That doesn't mean the theory is flawed - it means that people can be bad at implementing it.

I suggest against reading Genesis for your relationship advice, though. Try the New Testament, at least.

Quote from: jhkim;1089014I suggest against reading Genesis for your relationship advice, though. Try the New Testament, at least.

   Genesis isn't for general relationship advice, but as a good collection of hegative examples of 'here's what happens when people try polygamy, even when it's permitted.' For relationship advice, you look to Jesus and St. Paul, as well as the Song of Songs and commentaries thereon, and St. John Paul II for non-inspired but still good work.

Quote from: HaffrungAnd when we compare state religiosity with crime, we find the 10 most religious states are also some of the most crime-ridden (violent crime ranking in brackets):

Alabama (7)
Louisiana (5)
Tennessee (4)
Mississippi (36)
Oklahoma (14)
Texas (17)
Kentucky (44)
Arkansas (6)
West Virginia (27)
South Carolina (10)

Conversely, the 10 least religious states are also some of the safest:

Vermont (49)
New Hampshire (48)
Massachusetts (23)
Maine (50)
Washington (32)
Connecticut (46)
Montana (37)
Oregon (26)
Alaska (1)
New York (24)

As much as the dogmatic self-regard of SJWs is hard to stomach, the reactionary know-nothing tirades you guys vent here are no better. Two sides of the same coin.

Quote from: kythri;1089013For example, you have Oregon as (26), yet Wikipedia ranks Oregon as 27 by population, 50 by religiosity and worldatlas has Oregon as 37 on the danger meter.  WTF does 26 represent?

Please explain your methodology.  Some stuff lines up with your claims (i.e. Vermont), other is way off (i.e. Alaska).

That looks like a typo. He listed Montana (37) and Oregon (26) next to each other, but in the worldatlas link it's Montana (26) and Oregon (37).

Quote from: kythri;1089013Ultimately, if I'm reading correctly, your sources really prove nothing.  Per your sources:

Maine:  One of the lowest for religiosity, one of the lowest for crime
Alaska:  Lower even than Maine for relgiosity, but #1 highest for crime.

Any distribution has outliers - that doesn't disprove a trend. It looks like there is high scatter, at the very least, and it effectively disputes claims of the opposite trend.

Quote from: Haffrung;1089003Man, you guys are funny. If you really think adultery, paedophilia, and lawlessness are more common in 'progressive cesspools' like Seattle than in salt-of-the-earth Idaho or Kentucky, you're fucking deluded.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-02-11/what-is-the-divorce-rate-by-state

Oh look, divorce rates are highest in Arkansas, Alabama, Kentucky, Oklahoma, and Idaho.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_religiosity

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-most-dangerous-states-in-the-u-s.html

And when we compare state religiosity with crime, we find the 10 most religious states are also some of the most crime-ridden (violent crime ranking in brackets):

Alabama (7)
Louisiana (5)
Tennessee (4)
Mississippi (36)
Oklahoma (14)
Texas (17)
Kentucky (44)
Arkansas (6)
West Virginia (27)
South Carolina (10)

Conversely, the 10 least religious states are also some of the safest:

Vermont (49)
New Hampshire (48)
Massachusetts (23)
Maine (50)
Washington (32)
Connecticut (46)
Montana (37)
Oregon (26)
Alaska (1)
New York (24)

As much as the dogmatic self-regard of SJWs is hard to stomach, the reactionary know-nothing tirades you guys vent here are no better. Two sides of the same coin.

This guy gets it.

The progressives wouldn't be so degenerate if the old Religious Right weren't Puritan blowhards.

Honestly, the SJW Left and the Christian Right are both fun-hating moral authoritarians who want to ban anything they don't agree with.

Besides, most SJW's are extremely sex-negative and prudish, it's just based in a radical feminist authoritarian mindset instead of the Christian authoritarian mindset that the old moral guardians had.

Despite their outwardly pro-LGBT stance and platitudes speaking favorably of polyamory, the Millennial Left hate sex every bit as much as the Religious Right does, doubly so if it's male sexuality of any kind, and then triple that if it's heterosexual male sexuality.

SJW's are essentially secular Puritans who want the same type of soulless sex-negative society of old, except female-dominated instead of male-dominated.

Again, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Or in this case, for every idiotic overreaction there is an equally idiotic yet opposite overreaction.

Quote from: kythri;1089013Ultimately, if I'm reading correctly, your sources really prove nothing.  Per your sources:

Maine:  One of the lowest for religiosity, one of the lowest for crime
Alaska:  Lower even than Maine for relgiosity, but #1 highest for crime.

I just graphed it from his sources. It definitely has high scatter, but there is a trend line of lower rank in religiosity corresponds to lower rank in violent crime.  

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3419[/ATTACH]

This is, of course, a correlation - not a causation. There are a huge number of other variables in the states that could account for it. It does dispute there being a strong effect either way.

Quote from: kythri;1089013Where are you getting your data from?
...
Ultimately, if I'm reading correctly, your sources really prove nothing.  Per your sources:

Maine:  One of the lowest for religiosity, one of the lowest for crime
Alaska:  Lower even than Maine for relgiosity, but #1 highest for crime.

He is also leaving out demographics within those states, and which areas are 'religious', and which are not.

When an entire states crime rate is averaged, high crime inner city areas can throw the overall numbers through the roof. Despite areas with different demographics and 'religion' within the states showing much lower per-capita numbers.

In other words, don't look into his methodology - just be shocked! And assume he's right.

Quote from: jhkim;1089024I just graphed it from his sources. It definitely has high scatter, but there is a trend line of lower rank in religiosity corresponds to lower rank in violent crime.  

...

This is, of course, a correlation - not a causation. There are a huge number of other variables in the states that could account for it. It does dispute there being a strong effect either way.

Sources do matter: and Demographics matter too...

States with more religious populations tend to have fewer homicides and fewer suicides:
http://marripedia.org/effects_of_religious_practice_on_crime_rates


So we can go back and forth playing google-fu all day...

Quote from: jhkim;1089024I just graphed it from his sources. It definitely has high scatter, but there is a trend line of lower rank in religiosity corresponds to lower rank in violent crime.  

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3419[/ATTACH]

This is, of course, a correlation - not a causation. There are a huge number of other variables in the states that could account for it. It does dispute there being a strong effect either way.

This is BS pushed by anti-theists (not the same as atheists even if all anti-theists are atheists the same isn't true in reverse), You find more relation with education, family structure (more single mothers more crime), community cohesion, and economic status.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1089061This is BS pushed by anti-theists (not the same as atheists even if all anti-theists are atheists the same isn't true in reverse), You find more relation with education, family structure (more single mothers more crime), community cohesion, and economic status.

Some data was offered - it was disputed - I put up the full data to show the scatter. And I specifically said that it was correlation, not causation. I agree that the correlation is not strong (high scatter), and that other variables will have a stronger prediction.

Personally, I think Christianity is a good influence. However, people can be Christian and still be total assholes - so it's not an overwhelming influence.

Quote from: jhkim;1089064Some data was offered - it was disputed - I put up the full data to show the scatter. And I specifically said that it was correlation, not causation. I agree that the correlation is not strong (high scatter), and that other variables will have a stronger prediction.

Personally, I think Christianity is a good influence. However, people can be Christian and still be total assholes - so it's not an overwhelming influence.

Didn't mean to imply it was you pushing the BS, sorry.

Christianity is a good influence because it pushes for the marriage to survive and makes a community more cohesive by offering a common point. The same could be said of other religions if they do those two things and don't push to destroy the host country.

Agreed, you can find massive assholes everywhere no matter their beliefs (or lack of).

Only one caveat, when any religion (maybe with the exception of jainism) is taken to the extreme and becomes a fundamentalist branch of the religion.