OK, I have just woken up and getting ready for work and my mind was wandering. I remember when tabletop gaming magazines covered many different IPs. You could open up a copy of White Dwarf, Dragon, Polyhedron, Challenge, or Space Gamer and find articles for games like AD&D, B/X D&D, James Bond 007, Warhammer, Traveller, Cyberpunk, Star Wars, Battletech, Runequest, and Cyberpunk. Then at some point in the late eighties and early nineties every gaming magazine became a house organ for their own publisher. It was a sea change in the industry and I humbly think it was for the worst because it killed off a lot of the diversity in gaming ideas.
I'm just wondering a couple of things. Which magazine was the first to start doing this? Why did magazines decide to become house organs?
Avalon Hill started publishing "The General" as a house organ in the 60s. The context I get out of early The Dragon discussion about not being a house organ was pointing at those types of (still contemporaneous) magazines.
Why? Because they sold more of their own product that way; and, if you look at the letters to the editor, many (at least of the letters selected for publishing by the editors) said they wanted only AD&D in Dragon and that other articles were considered a waste of their money.
I reckon The General was the first as well, but they weren't completely house organs (I published a few articles with them which weren't AH games).
Whatever diversity the "house organ" magazines killed in ideas (and I'm not convinced it did) found a huge resurgence when the internet came in and destroyed magazines in general.
Yeah, it sounds like House Organs and diversified magazines always were coexistent, with only a slight bit of which was in prominence at any given time period. One can only speculate as to the decisions of why to be a house organ vs. a non-HO (other than the obvious--if you are marketing yourself to your board of directors or whomever as free-self-advertising, you don't have to make a direct profit to not get cut). I know both White Dwarf and Dragon had a tempestuous relationships with non-self reporting, varying wildly over their lifetimes as to how much they covered their competitor's product.
One of them went the other way, the Journal for the Travellers Aid Society from GDW became Challenge, a multi-system mag until GDW died.
Fear of Copyright started to become a thing in the late eighties - 1988 was the UK Copyright Designs & Patents Act, also the year the USA signed the Bern Copyright Convention. Talking to TSR in house lawyers in the early-mid 90s, they seemed to think copyright worked the same as trade marks - use it or lose it. I think this had a chilling effect.
Challenge dropped articles for Rifts because of that, but I think every other publisher didn't care.
I think the copyright thing is significant, what with some game companies insisting you needed permission from them or at least putting up a disclaimer just to write a blog about their game. So the struggle of media companies with copyright in the digital age contributed to it all. Some are still struggling, for example selling collected works only on... CD.
If it was economically viable today, magazines would still exist that cover multiple game lines.
House organs OTOH can be a benefit, as they can be seen as an extension of a company's game lines. Being the official thing and such.
Advertising used to be a fairly large portion of old print magazine revenue. Companies and writers often didn't take bad reviews and such of their products very well. Those same companies were usually a magazine's main advertisers.
The end of FidoNet killed those rags.
Remember when White Dwarf was good?
And then it became nothing more than a flier. Junk mail that you pay for.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1047658Remember when White Dwarf was good?
And then it became nothing more than a flier. Junk mail that you pay for.
I've still got my old pre-100 issues...
I have to admit to being a little jealous.:o
Quote from: The_Shadow;1047660I've still got my old pre-100 issues...
Some of the early post 100 ones arent too bad wither. but past around I think 160-200 the articles on older games all but vanished and it became progrssively just a big advertisement flyer that you had to pay for.
Part of the move to just in-house material was the increasing rivalry between companies too. TSR was making enemies left and right. It was akin to Marvel's current ending of everything related to the Fantastic Four and possibly X-Men to spite Fox or whomever owns the movie IP now on that front. Who wants to give free advertising to people they don't like? Even if that means cutting off your own nose to spite them. :rolleyes:
Quote from: The_Shadow;1047660I've still got my old pre-100 issues...
Same here. It is part of what prompted the thread.
White Dwarf became all about Warhammer a good while before Dragon became almost only about TSR games.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1047894White Dwarf became all about Warhammer a good while before Dragon became almost only about TSR games.
I don't think so. I took a break from D&D when 2nd Edition came out, and I really couldn't find much reason to pick up Dragon in the late '80s. White Dwarf still had thing like great Call of Cthulhu adventures until at least '88. It was '89 or '90 when White Dwarf became a miniature catalog, and Dragon was already firmly focused on TSR at that point.
Either way, there wasn't that big a span of time between them both becoming house organs. Maybe a year. Maybe two.
If you want to give Dragon points, at least it remained a roleplaying magazine.
Quote from: Baulderstone;1048004I don't think so. I took a break from D&D when 2nd Edition came out, and I really couldn't find much reason to pick up Dragon in the late '80s. White Dwarf still had thing like great Call of Cthulhu adventures until at least '88. It was '89 or '90 when White Dwarf became a miniature catalog, and Dragon was already firmly focused on TSR at that point.
Either way, there wasn't that big a span of time between them both becoming house organs. Maybe a year. Maybe two.
If you want to give Dragon points, at least it remained a roleplaying magazine.
Firmly focused, but not exclusive. Random articles on other games and the Marvel-Phile continued through 1993 in Dragon at least.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1047894White Dwarf became all about Warhammer a good while before Dragon became almost only about TSR games.
WD issue 99 was in March 88 and I think the last to have any non-GW articles in it. Traveller and Call of Cthulhu
DM issue 139 was November 88 and looks to be the start of the decline as it just has one non-TSR article for DC Heroes. The next would not be till issue 144 in April 89 with an article for Runequest. And a Warhammer 40k article in issue 149 of September 89. Some CoC articles in issue 150 which was October 89. May 1990 there was issue 157 with a Star Wars article. A CoC article in issue 162 in October 90. 2 articles in 166 for Autoduel and Battletech for Febuary 91. January 92 issue 177 had an article for Gurps Space.
After that not sure. But probably by issue 180 non-TSR articles were totally phased out or close enough. 180-200 my collection has some holes and past 200 even more.
So 88 seems to be the start of the pulling back to in house only. With Dragon tossing the dogs a bone ever few issues but otherwise all in-house stuff aside from reviews. And not sure when WD stopped doing even reviews.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1048006Firmly focused, but not exclusive. Random articles on other games and the Marvel-Phile continued through 1993 in Dragon at least.
I was responding to Pundit's comment...
"White Dwarf became all about Warhammer a good while before Dragon became almost only about TSR games."
He was comparing the point that White Dwarf become entirely about Warhammer to the point that "Dragon became almost only about TSR Games."
MSH was a TSR game.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1047658Remember when White Dwarf was good?
And then it became nothing more than a flier. Junk mail that you pay for.
It's still a house organ but between like 2010 and 2014 it was just awful. I mean, beyond awful. Literally : here's painted minis, here's how much the paints cost, here's how much the minis cost, here's the new minis and books coming out next month. 90% photos, 10% "content" and the "content" was boilerplate about what the photos were of and it was $10 an issue (I bought exactly 0 issues).
They're now back to doing batreps, lore, scenarios, actual
how to paint etc. They're their own backpatters sure but you can make the argument there's real content again (like for example after the last as in final release ever of space hulk in 2014, they did pieces on how to use Genestealer Cults in it, just like in the old days).
My own recollection is that by the end of the 80s, White Dwarf was nothing but Warhammer stuff, and mostly not good stuff.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048411My own recollection is that by the end of the 80s, White Dwarf was nothing but Warhammer stuff, and mostly not good stuff.
The early 40k lore laid down in the mag was actually full of fun stuff: you had Ork Noiz Boyz introduced then (ork Heavy Metal bands with sonic weapons), I think one issue they threw a cassette EP of the band Bolt Thrower in, there were scenarios and background for Space Hulk, which'd dropped in '89 and gave us the fantastic "Deathwing" fluff. But yeah seeing them going from multi-format to "Here's our stuff, buy it" was a shame.
Not to be confused with the mid 00s, which were a sham. Wasn't a magazine then.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048411My own recollection is that by the end of the 80s, White Dwarf was nothing but Warhammer stuff, and mostly not good stuff.
I have some issues from I think around 190 or 200 that had Warhammer Quest stuff in them. After that though it seemed to progressively shut down and become increasingly just a catalogue. That was in the late 90s. This was also when GW progressively became a VERY hostile place to work for and they were actively shutting down competitor gaming stores amongst other underhanded practices. some of which carry over even now. This was also when they started pulling back gradually their presence at certain conventions. Which was sad as the GW staff liked me and I got to see some sneak preview material and vids during the idle times.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1048056(like for example after the last as in final release ever of space hulk in 2014, they did pieces on how to use Genestealer Cults in it, just like in the old days).
What issues? I have Deathwatch:Overkill, so I have a good number of cult figures which are eager to make the leap to Space Hulk games.
Quote from: Gabriel2;1048537What issues? I have Deathwatch:Overkill, so I have a good number of cult figures which are eager to make the leap to Space Hulk games.
Rules for genestealer cults in the Dec 2017 White Dwarf issue.
Well, maybe just because I was never into WH apart from the RPG, so it didn't seem very useful to me...
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048761Well, maybe just because I was never into WH apart from the RPG, so it didn't seem very useful to me...
Even the RPG articles eventually vanish after issue 100. There were still WHFRP articles as late as issue 122. Then nothing in 123 which was August 90, and just one WHFRP article in 125 and 126. And nothing in 129 and on far as I can tell. So much like TSR there was an abrupt and heavy die off and then the surviving WHFRP suffered a gradual die off.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1048434Not to be confused with the mid 00s, which were a sham. Wasn't a magazine then.
I got a year of it in the early 00's - and I enjoyed it. (I got into 40k well before D&D). But then, I didn't really pay much for it. I remember they used to give you a box of minis with a year's subscription, and then they had a Christmas special for 1/2 off. So basically I got the minis I would have already purchased for full price (maybe $2-3 more than my FLGS) and the magazine subscription for free.
Really - their pricing is ridiculous. They shouldn't try to actually make $ with the thing. They should sell it at cost and consider it marketing. I know that every time I got an issue it got me reinvigorated to do some painting and to go out and buy more minis (though I probably wouldn't be as easily influenced now - I was a teen at the time). They'd probably be better off printing a thinner and/or lower quality mag for significantly cheaper too.
The quality of Dragon magazine certainly declined heavily over time, and I'd say it flipped past being worth buying after Princess Ark ended.
But at least it did, pretty much all the way through, have at least some amount of stuff useful to actual D&D gamers.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1049110The quality of Dragon magazine certainly declined heavily over time, and I'd say it flipped past being worth buying after Princess Ark ended.
But at least it did, pretty much all the way through, have at least some amount of stuff useful to actual D&D gamers.
And a ton of articles that are very useful even now. Despite what a certain village idiot over on BGG likes to declare otherwise.
Theres even some good stiff in the WOTC era.
Same with Dungeon and then Dungeon/Polyhedron, then back to Dungeon. For about 10 issues D/P put out a bunch of really interesting settings to use with d20m and other systems. And it still had some useful other articles in it. Though I lost track after about issue 112 when they ended Polyhedron.
I think the utility of Gaming Magazines kind of went bust in the Internet age.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1049450I think the utility of Gaming Magazines kind of went bust in the Internet age.
I think that you could removing "Gaming" from that statement and have it be just as true.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1049450I think the utility of Gaming Magazines kind of went bust in the Internet age.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1049454I think that you could removing "Gaming" from that statement and have it be just as true.
I don't entirely buy that premise. From what I have seen by mining older magazines for gaming articles, it feels like there was more thought put into them in the past (there was definitely more editing). With the internet, most articles as blog posts are welcome in their brevity, but read like the author just dumped anything out on the screen no matter how bad it is. The exceptions to that are few and well worth reading, but have to be found amid mountains of crap.
Quote from: jeff37923;1049487I don't entirely buy that premise. From what I have seen by mining older magazines for gaming articles, it feels like there was more thought put into them in the past (there was definitely more editing). With the internet, most articles as blog posts are welcome in their brevity, but read like the author just dumped anything out on the screen no matter how bad it is. The exceptions to that are few and well worth reading, but have to be found amid mountains of crap.
This seems to be part of the problem. Over time the quality of the articles seemed to actually lessen as a magazine drifts more and more to just in company stuff. I do not think the internet killed magazines. But it did remove the editing filter that kept out the loony bin. (mostly) The internet is surprisingly and appallingly all too often NOT as useful as those old magazine articles are.
Of course. The old magazine articles had lots of people paying hard money to the publisher before they read them.
But people voted with their wallets - they would rather dig through shit for pearls than pay a jeweler.
I for one like paper magazines, but hey I also prefer face-to-face gaming (shut up, EOTB) and miniatures and old D&D so whaddyagonnado
I sure lean towards the internet killing mags, since it isn't just gaming magazines that have pretty much vanished. Inquest used to run a monthly price guide for Magic cards...but what possible use is such a thing the prices are a month out of date, and the internet can get you instant prices? Toss in much cheaper distribution and a website seems a better option.
Even if something useful WAS in a magazine, there's nothing to stop someone from taking a picture and posting it to the net in a few seconds.
That said, Dragon did taper off in usefulness towards the end. My old Dragons are still pretty readable, but the once you're in the multi-hundreds, there's much more 'meh."
Quote from: Doom;1049625I sure lean towards the internet killing mags, since it isn't just gaming magazines that have pretty much vanished. Inquest used to run a monthly price guide for Magic cards...but what possible use is such a thing the prices are a month out of date, and the internet can get you instant prices? Toss in much cheaper distribution and a website seems a better option.
Even if something useful WAS in a magazine, there's nothing to stop someone from taking a picture and posting it to the net in a few seconds.
That said, Dragon did taper off in usefulness towards the end. My old Dragons are still pretty readable, but the once you're in the multi-hundreds, there's much more 'meh."
Past the 80s (the issues #'d 80-90, I mean) Dragon Magazine quickly becomes "meh" in the overall. Between Gary writing short stories and contributing directly, Gardner Fox's serial, Wormy (which I know continued on quite a bit past that) and guests like Fritz Leiber popping in, the early run of The Dragon was amazing. Just fantastic. Once it got "slick" (after Gary was sent into exile in CA) quality dropped way, way off.
Just prior to the death of 3e when they had Gary and Rob Kuntz contributing (which was when it was run by Paizo, I think) was, ironically, a real spring thaw despite it being a one-note IP only magazine.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1049627Past the 80s (the issues #'d 80-90, I mean) Dragon Magazine quickly becomes "meh" in the overall. Between Gary writing short stories and contributing directly, Gardner Fox's serial, Wormy (which I know continued on quite a bit past that) and guests like Fritz Leiber popping in, the early run of The Dragon was amazing. Just fantastic. Once it got "slick" (after Gary was sent into exile in CA) quality dropped way, way off.
Just prior to the death of 3e when they had Gary and Rob Kuntz contributing (which was when it was run by Paizo, I think) was, ironically, a real spring thaw despite it being a one-note IP only magazine.
Id say it was not untill about the early 90s that Dragon started to lose quality. Least in looks. There was a span of issues that looked really lackluster inside in places. But still had some ok articles. Then it picked back up again and kinda maintained a general level of "ok" at least till the end f the TSR era far as I can tell. My collection putters out around issue 250 or so and after that I picked them up only occasionally.
The primary driver I see as driving the decline in dragon was the increasing concentration/coordination with the RPGA. In its earlier days the authors in each issue were full of new names without many repeats; it was more of a hobby-wide participation. But by '84 or so you can see much more regularity in the authors of the articles chosen to publish - and they often were RPGA members. Dungeon was the same way.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1049454I think that you could removing "Gaming" from that statement and have it be just as true.
True enough. Just like newspapers. They're all dead, some of them just don't know it yet.
Quote from: EOTB;1049669The primary driver I see as driving the decline in dragon was the increasing concentration/coordination with the RPGA. In its earlier days the authors in each issue were full of new names without many repeats; it was more of a hobby-wide participation. But by '84 or so you can see much more regularity in the authors of the articles chosen to publish - and they often were RPGA members. Dungeon was the same way.
er? When? As noted. I have Dragon and some Dungeon and Polyhedron into the 90s and its still a fair amount of user submission material. Its just that after a point a few specifics became fairly regular like Bruce Heard doing a series on the Known World setting and the Princess Ark articles. Or Schends Marvel Phile series.
But a quick glance at the 90s era Dragon and you do see alot of recurring names like Carl Sargent, Spike Y. Jones, Gregory Detwiler, Kim Eastland, and Jean Rabe just at a quick glance through issues 160-200 which spans 1990-93. Not including regular articles. Keep in mind that TSR occasionally hired article submitters and some of them were real workhorses pumping out alot of good articles.
I think that you saw more was an increase in the regular articles and a decrease in the submissions of variants and such. Not sure about Dungeon. But far as I saw there maintained a fair spread of submitted modules. Polyhedron though I suspect you are right. Or at the very least the non-staff submissions were alot fewer.
After Heard and Sargent were gone, that's when it went downhill.