I have been rereading the original Magic World and remembering how much fun we had with RQ 2e before the Glorantha canon wankery drove our crew away. I've been a Chaosium customer since its earliest years - especially CoC and Stormbringer, and there's always been lots of good (and some less than good) about their house system. Of course, in recent years, we've seen other D100 games such as Mythras and OpenQuest as well.
I know we have several big fans of BRP/D100 games on this forum, and many who haven't played any of these games. There's so much jabber about OSR / D&D games over the years, but Chaosium keeps chugging along as do the other D100 publishers.
What do you think are the best selling points of BRP/D100 games? What draws you in?
Do you have any hesitations in recommending them to others? If so, why?
What's the common issues that new players to these games experience? What are the common misconceptions?
If you are not a BRP/D100 player, what's kept you from trying them out?
I've had players claim that they will only play in a game that uses a bell curve system for character generation! I've had people who claim that they prefer rolling a D20 for actions/events rather than d% even though the resulting value has virtually the same effect. Possibly these are down to a mental inability to cope with larger numbers, mind you I have a player who has trouble adding two or three d6's together due to his inability to grok numbers.
As far as selling the game I think it's the setting that sells any game but the huge variety of d100 based games makes it very easy to mix and match bits from various sources to get a very close fit for the style of game to match the setting. You can ramp things up or down with overall hp versus distributed hp for example to vary the book-keeping necessary.
I'll always suggest using a d100 system over d20 mostly because of the connotations that a D20 system brings with it - mostly player assumptions about system for example.
Common issues tend to be around the blackjack resolution system (highest roll under skill wins) and that low is a critical/special versus 00 is a fumble.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;957502I've had players claim that they will only play in a game that uses a bell curve system for character generation!
I don't see how that's an issue for BRP. At least in every version I've seen so far, humans roll their stats on either 3d6 or 2d6+6.
I was using that as an example of irrational fears or worries regarding mechanics. These people wouldn't play a PbtA game as it didn't use 3d6 to generate characters. I've sat next to one player earlier this year who derided the DCC game we were playing because it didn't only use a 'standard' set of polyhedrals and had some extra dice and used them in a 'dice chain' for varying effects. People are odd about gaming things outside their comfort zone and that zone can be uncomfortably small.
Quote from: Spinachcat;957499What do you think are the best selling points of BRP/D100 games? What draws you in?
It's a game system that strikes a very neat balance between complexity and verisimilitude. It's also one that hinges on almost no "setting assumptions" and can be easily modded (skill list granularity, hit locations or no hit locations, HP calculation, etc.) the better to reflect the setting, which is why Mythras/RQ6 is my go-to game for fantasy settings that don't necessarily fit D&D's assumptions.
Quote from: Spinachcat;957499Do you have any hesitations in recommending them to others? If so, why?
If you want a comic book take on violence, where larger-than-life heroes cleanly dispose of their opposition at little or no cost to themselves, look elsewhere. My BRP games tend towards brutality and grit, and usually look more like a Norse saga than the average fantasy novel.
Quote from: Spinachcat;957499What's the common issues that new players to these games experience? What are the common misconceptions?
Do not assume building a combat-oriented PC means you will not die in combat! Even the mightiest of warriors can die shanked by a lucky goblin.
In my RQ3 campaign, back in the day, I started to feel quite strongly that the system rewarded cheaters a bit too much. I know, you can cheat in just about any game but there were players who would miraculously make experience rolls on 90+ skills session after session and they seemed to always be the ones who could always pull a critical hit off at just the right moment. I suspect they were flip flopping their rolls but it could have been cheater dice too.
Quote from: The Butcher;957529If you want a comic book take on violence, where larger-than-life heroes cleanly dispose of their opposition at little or no cost to themselves, look elsewhere. My BRP games tend towards brutality and grit, and usually look more like a Norse saga than the average fantasy novel.
I have seen this before, but I disagree a bit on this one. Creating larger than life heroes is super easy if you ask me. OK maybe some options for superhero games are missing (so you need to house rule a bit), but you can easily run games as a bunch of over the top super powerful barbarians a la Conan. I have done this myself. I picked various options from the BRP book (similar to the rules in Stormbringer) in a game directly inspired by Kull and Conan stories, and we had a massive blast.
A lot of experience with Mythras in the last year or two for me. I absolutely love it.
One of the things I like about it is that it is possible to build exactly the character you want without a lot of extra baggage. A lot of this is a product of it being classless, and there are other systems that can do this. But my group recently switched back to 5e and I am chaffing under the lack of granularity a bit.
I really love that shield and spear is a strong option. In Mythras, at least, it covers all of the reach space, protects most of your body, grants a thrown weapon option, can do above average damage with Impale, can knock back with a Bash, can stun locations. It feels like these are both getting the attention they deserve without forcing you into some sort of hyper specialized role.
I love that the system as a whole is extremely modular. You can take bits out and add bits in without very much impact on anything else. You can leverage work from 30 years ago easily, or from some other variant, and by and large, it just works with little effort. I might liken it to cooking, vs many other systems baking.
Quote from: Spinachcat;957499If you are not a BRP/D100 player, what's kept you from trying them out?
D100 roll results are too random.
Quote from: The Butcher;957529If you want a comic book take on violence, where larger-than-life heroes cleanly dispose of their opposition at little or no cost to themselves, look elsewhere. My BRP games tend towards brutality and grit, and usually look more like a Norse saga than the average fantasy novel.
As Trond correctly pointed out, this is more of a problem of the traditional, "pure Chaosium" versions of the game - RQ2, RQ3, Stormbringer, the BGB, CoC, etc. The versions derived from the "Mongoose fork" are much more likely to let you run "larger than life" heroes., and feel like a Conan or John Carter novel. This is, of course, a feature and not necessarily a bug, as the extreme lethality of classic BRP combat adds to the sense of authenticity.
Quote from: RosenMcStern;957558As Trond correctly pointed out, this is more of a problem of the traditional, "pure Chaosium" versions of the game - RQ2, RQ3, Stormbringer, the BGB, CoC, etc. The versions derived from the "Mongoose fork" are much more likely to let you run "larger than life" heroes., and feel like a Conan or John Carter novel. This is, of course, a feature and not necessarily a bug, as the extreme lethality of classic BRP combat adds to the sense of authenticity.
I can concur with this, as far as Mythras and the Mythras-derived Classic Fantasy go. In the latter, an increased amount of luck points and smart expenditure by the players made it less lethal, as critical hits were by and large mitigated, and big damage rolls were rerolled, or neutered by heavier armor.
I have no worthwhile comment on this, except to say my next character will be named Boonzin Bains. :-)
Here's how I did it for my heroic Conan/Kull -inspired game:
Player character stats are all 2D6+6 (or some point buy system that gives higher than average 3D6 stats but somewhat lower than 2d6+6, I think I gave them a choice)
Give them a good amount of points to buy skills, I think I used 400 points. Tell them which skills are not appropriate to the setting of course, and ask them to develop a character story/background as they are allocating points. Set a starting cap to, say, 90 or 95% (including stat bonus) on any given skill, and expect them to actually go that high on their weapon skills and some other important skills. That is unless you want to use skills above 100%, which I just thought was too much of a mess.
Design opponents that seem nasty and dangerous when you describe them, but who are rarely much above 50% in skill :D
Include some more difficult bad guys (bosses) who are designed more-or less like the characters themselves, with some nasty magical tricks up their sleeve. We did not use hit locations in combat, but we did use the Major Wound table included in BRP. This kept things brutal and fast at the same time.
Sadly, we only got to play one of these games before I moved. The opponents were basically the serpent men from Howard's "The Shadow Kingdom", complete with a specific phrase that made them reveal their identity (luckily none of the players had read the story). It was great fun :D
As others have mentioned, the chargen in BRP/D100 games is a fast combo of random stats and chosen skills and spells. The classless aspect in RQ usually means everyone falls somewhere on the Fighter / Thief / Mage combo spectrum, but unless you're playing inexperienced 16 yr old noobs in old RQ, most D100 characters start nicely experienced.
I have always loved how XP works in BRP/D100. For those who don't know, you get to roll over skills you used in game. Thus, its much easier to improve a low skill than a high skill. Also, the concept of "buying training" is built into most settings so you can trade gold for more skills. I found this concept adds to world creation because the concept of highly skilled teachers in various locales.
Also, spells are point based, so you cast a lot more often, which was always a big selling point to D&D players pre-3e.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;957502I've had players claim that they will only play in a game that uses a bell curve system for character generation!
Wow. That's an oddly specific complaint.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;957502I've had people who claim that they prefer rolling a D20 for actions/events rather than d% even though the resulting value has virtually the same effect.
I sometimes have that bias myself, but its from twitching when players who take too long to decide if 40 and 4 is 44 and if 44 is lower than 60%...every round.
There is a speed issue when I say "the Troll is AC 15" and they roll 16, or even 12 when they know their attack bonus is +6. BTW, this issue of player visual math recognition is why I often reconsider the old THAC0 charts.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;957502Possibly these are down to a mental inability to cope with larger numbers, mind you I have a player who has trouble adding two or three d6's together due to his inability to grok numbers.
THIS is a growing issue I have seen increasing among gamers of all ages in the past 2 decades. It's why I am hesitant about running D6 and D10 games where players have to roll up multiple dice each round. I have been working on converting some favorite D6 stuff into a D6 "count successes" instead. I ran L5R two years ago and that uses a handful of D10s and several players broke out phone calculators and fortunately somebody got a rolling app because 2 of the 6 players (with college degrees) were beyond useless counting dice pips up past 20.
Math skills have gone to shit.
Quote from: David Johansen;957532I suspect they were flip flopping their rolls but it could have been cheater dice too.
I've seen this repeatedly over the decades at FLGS game days and conventions with both BRP and Warhammer RPGs. It's why I ask for two colored D10s and people to declare tens / ones in advance. I greatly prefer those D10s marked 10, 20, 30 etc. 94 is always 49 with those people.
My solution?
If I smell a cheater, I throw in some extra monsters as reinforcements who go aggro on the cheater's PC. Of course, I am happy to roll all attacks / parries in the open.
2-3 more moderate opponents arriving in a mid-BRP battle is a world of shit.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;957541D100 roll results are too random.
This is an issue with Warhammer RPGs as well. I've seen this concern before, especially from Traveller and GURPS fans where the 2D6 or 3D6 produces reliable averages, whereas D20 and D100 are "anything goes" with every dice toss.
Quote from: cranebump;957562my next character will be named Boonzin Bains. :-)
My good deed for the month is done!
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;957541D100 roll results are too random.
With a 60% chance of success there is exactly a 60% chance of succeeding on D100.
A few of the things I like about the d100 family of games are:
- Multiple game lines that vary from fairly light (e.g. OpenQuest) to moderately crunchy (Mythras) while keeping the same basic framework
- Easy to mix and match different things from multiple game lines to fine tune it to your preferences
- Seems more in tune with what I view as simulationist/verisimilitude based game
- Character has more flexibility to pursue different areas of ability than in class based games
- Easy to estimate how good my character is at something; I have a 75% skill, so I know that I have a 75% chance of rolling a success.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;957541D100 roll results are too random.
Quote from: Vile;957602With a 60% chance of success there is exactly a 60% chance of succeeding on D100.
I've seen objections to d100 as too random, but as Vile points out, it's just a math issue. The "solution" is to find what your expectations for a competent person are and make that the general ability level for the characters who are using skills in that area. For example, there is no difference between saying you need a 9 or higher on a 3d6 roll and saying you need to roll 74% or lower on a 1d100 roll.
Some don't understand that the famed "bell curve" is emulated well enough in most percentage based systems such as BRP and Rolemaster by having a big fat middle range, then effectively another result for say 91-99 and again for 100.
Quote from: The_Shadow;957614Some don't understand that the famed "bell curve" is emulated well enough in most percentage based systems such as BRP and Rolemaster by having a big fat middle range, then effectively another result for say 91-99 and again for 100.
Note the mention of math skills have gone to shit earlier in the thread and things like people frequently asking about probability in some threads on many RPG forums.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;957541D100 roll results are too random.
Map out a d20 to a d100 (example 1=1-5, 2=6-10, 3=11-15, etc.). Then roll and record and you will find that they are both equally random. Saying dice are too random is bullshit. What you should be saying is "I do not like the spread of dice results."
Quote from: Spinachcat;957580Math skills have gone to shit.
This is not really new though. West End Games had to come up with a new version of the D6 system (that just counted successes on special dice) because they discovered from running games at cons, that players couldn't add up dice. They only used it for Hercules/Xena, but presumably eventually had they not gone under, most games would have shifted to it.
I did my coursework on advanced probability (or some such, it was 22 years ago) for my A-level maths and was an A grade student, however if you put me on the spot my simple addition goes to pot. A lot of people struggle when having to do something 'now' even simple things. Doesn't mean maths have gone to rubbish just that in the moment surrounded by other people your concentration isn't great.
Simplicity leads to an easier time gaming, it's meant to be fun not school. That said I think people worry too much about the math.
Quote from: Spinachcat;957499Do you have any hesitations in recommending them to others? If so, why?
No particularly in its RQ II/Legends/RQ6/Mythras incarnation. Overall a solid system of medium complexity.
Quote from: Spinachcat;957499If you are not a BRP/D100 player, what's kept you from trying them out?
As things shook out my group prefers the use of 3d6 and so we went with a Fantasy Age variant.
I got to say in d100 various incarnations, I have to wonder the point of using the d100 in the first place as most everything in increments of +/- 5%. Yes specific editions varies from that but still why not just use a d20?
Quote from: Spinachcat;957499What do you think are the best selling points of BRP/D100 games? What draws you in?
Do you have any hesitations in recommending them to others? If so, why?
What's the common issues that new players to these games experience? What are the common misconceptions?
If you are not a BRP/D100 player, what's kept you from trying them out?
To answer in order
1. The granular nature of the characters without the requirement to add layer upon layer of complexity, the way they feel rounded and complete without needing to gain new abilities every level but more organic development. The settings and the way the rules meld with them rather than feel tacked on.
2. Some hesitance because of my lack of familiarity but I'm doing so with my gaming group and we should be starting a game in the next month or so...if we ever finish this damned dungeon slog.
3. The lack of strong promotion and the misperceptions about lethality are two issue that act as barriers to new player entry.
4. Misconceptions about it being outdated and again too lethal, lack of strong promotion didn't keep it in mind and I was daunted by the main setting at the time, obviously plenty of choices since.
Quote from: estar;957666I got to say in d100 various incarnations, I have to wonder the point of using the d100 in the first place as most everything in increments of +/- 5%. Yes specific editions varies from that but still why not just use a d20?
That was certainly true of RuneQuest 1&2. They evolved from Steve Perrin's D&D rules that took thief skills and applied them to weapon skills and other non-combat skills.
However, since CoC, BRP has been very much a percentile game with skills across the whole range rather than increments of 5%.
Quote from: Spellslinging Sellsword;957611I've seen objections to d100 as too random, but as Vile points out, it's just a math issue. The "solution" is to find what your expectations for a competent person are and make that the general ability level for the characters who are using skills in that area. For example, there is no difference between saying you need a 9 or higher on a 3d6 roll and saying you need to roll 74% or lower on a 1d100 roll.
This.
But it is clearly an issue for many people, since I have seen published RPGs that people clearly put a lot of work into, but where they still hadn't thought enough about probabilities or they simply got the math wrong.
Quote from: Trond;957681This.
But it is clearly an issue for many people, since I have seen published RPGs that people clearly put a lot of work into, but where they still hadn't thought enough about probabilities or they simply got the math wrong.
I went on the Internet this morning and I found this: http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/3_dice_rolls.htm (http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/3_dice_rolls.htm)
Great table with the percentages listed.
Quote from: estar;957666I got to say in d100 various incarnations, I have to wonder the point of using the d100 in the first place as most everything in increments of +/- 5%. Yes specific editions varies from that but still why not just use a d20?
There are times when I prefer the Pendragon version which converts the d100 to a chunkier d20, and sometimes wish there was a generic BRP variant that did this as well.
That said, a percentile system is entirely intuitive for most people and works well for new players. Most people have a pretty firm grasp of equating percentages and probabilities - (I mean c'mon, those that don't understand the meaning of a basic percentage would probably be happier with a hobby that didn't have dice). The numbers are bigger, but no arithmetic is necessary. Having a 60% skill is a lot clearer to an untrained eye, in terms of understanding probabilities, than a +3 mod to a 3d6 roll that is compared to a target number (which isn't hard either, but unlike percentages it isn't instantly intuitive to the average person). A roll under percentile system is about the simplest way you can put recognizable probabilities on a character sheet.
We never had a problem with the percentage values in BRP or similar games, so I don't see the issue. The one game I have tried where the large numbers did get a bit clunky was Rolemaster (in which you typically have a bonus which can be anything from, say, -20 to 100 or more, plus minus various variables, added to a open-ended D100 roll)
Quote from: Spinachcat;957499What do you think are the best selling points of BRP/D100 games? What draws you in?
Other posters have covered many of the best selling points of BRP/D100. What
draws me in is that I've been running BRP for about 30 years, and I've never found another system that has gelled so well to my playstyle and gaming preferences.
I was originally
drawn in around 1985 when I picked up RQ3 and CoC 2e. It was a gaming-paradigm-shifting event for me. I was so impressed and inspired that I basically said
fuck this (D&D)
shit, and never looked back. Other systems have briefly got my attention, but BRP is what I regularly return to.
Quote from: Trond;957694We never had a problem with the percentage values in BRP or similar games, so I don't see the issue. The one game I have tried where the large numbers did get a bit clunky was Rolemaster (in which you typically have a bonus which can be anything from, say, -20 to 100 or more, plus minus various variables, added to a open-ended D100 roll)
Rolemaster is really a different animal altogether: same dice, completely different mechanic. And yes, it has too much fiddly math for comfortable play, especially if beer is involved, which is too bad as I otherwise rather like Rolemaster, MERP, and HARP.
D100 games like BRP on the other hand have very minimal math so I don't see the issue either. In fact, I think BRP, and games like it, are considerably simpler and more transparent in play than most versions of D&D.
I love D100 game systems! Especially Call of Cthulhu and Stormbringer/ELRIC!
Quote from: Spinachcat;957499What do you think are the best selling points of BRP/D100 games? What draws you in?
I think the system itself is simple and easy to grasp, and very easy to port over stats/options from other D100 systems.
Quote from: Spinachcat;957499What's the common issues that new players to these games experience? What are the common misconceptions?
Spending Skill points during character creation! It usually take new players forever because the skill list is very vast. On top of which, as a player, what you thought would be useful might not be, so a well-rounded character may actually suck at some fairly important stuff within the game!
Quote from: yojimbouk;957677That was certainly true of RuneQuest 1&2. They evolved from Steve Perrin's D&D rules that took thief skills and applied them to weapon skills and other non-combat skills.
Never seen RQ1, but RQ2, at least, has "specials" on 1/5 of skill and "criticals" on 1/20 of skill, so there is still an effect to using d100 instead of d20, even with all the base skill levels being multiples of 5%.
Unless you want to roll a second die, of course. You could roll 2d20 with one determining success/fail and the other indicating critical on 1 and special on 2-4. Still rolling two dice of the same shape, but a little less math for those who have problems with it.
Quote from: Madprofessor;957688That said, a percentile system is entirely intuitive for most people and works well for new players. Most people have a pretty firm grasp of equating percentages and probabilities
You'd think so, but, back in the days of City of Heroes, I seem to recall reading about how most people think "80% chance" means "it will happen almost every time". And I've seen that first-hand many, many times from people insisting that the RNG in XCom (or other computer games) is
obviously cheating because shots with 85% to hit should practically never miss, and they just missed two of them back-to-back.
Quote from: nDervish;957866You'd think so, but, back in the days of City of Heroes, I seem to recall reading about how most people think "80% chance" means "it will happen almost every time". And I've seen that first-hand many, many times from people insisting that the RNG in XCom (or other computer games) is obviously cheating because shots with 85% to hit should practically never miss, and they just missed two of them back-to-back.
Well ok but, a d100 is *exactly* as random as any other die. Missing on an 85% on a d100 is exactly the same as missing on a 1-3 on a d20, it is also very close to missing on a 1 on a d6 or a 7 or less on 3d6. Any dice probability can be mapped out in percentages. I'm not saying it's you, but there seems to be a perception in this thread that d100 is somehow more random than other dice because the numbers are bigger... er something. Did those xcom players pass the 4th grade?
Snide remarks aside, I haven't met too many gamers who are that fundamentally behind in math, and stand by my comment that a roll under d100 percentile system is more instantly intuitive and transparent, as far as recognizing probabilities, than other dice mechanics. Most people work with or encounter percentages on a nearly daily basis from a young age. We're culturally trained to recognize probabilities in terms of percentages.
Quote from: Madprofessor;957880Well ok but, a d100 is *exactly* as random as any other die. Missing on an 85% on a d100 is exactly the same as missing on a 1-3 on a d20, it is also very close to missing on a 1 on a d6 or a 7 or less on 3d6. Any dice probability can be mapped out in percentages. I'm not saying it's you, but there seems to be a perception in this thread that d100 is somehow more random than other dice because the numbers are bigger... er something. Did those xcom players pass the 4th grade?
The real debate is bell curve (mostly in the form of 3d6) versus linear probability (d20, d100, etc).
Bell Curve probabilities are less swingy in that the result cluster in the middle of the curve. So it feel more predictable than linear probabilities which can feel all over the place. Bell Curve also has the characteristic that once you push your bonus so that you rolling above the middle hump of the curve then your odds of success go dramatically up.
If you juggle progression, and odds of success correctly then you can make one work like the other. What it boils down is how you want your progression to look like. With d100 it is even as you increase your skill. With 3d6 you get a little at first, then it ramps up a bit as you hit the middle of the curve, then even out as you traverse the middle of the curve, and then your odds dramatically increase when you start hitting the other side of the curve.
This progression is particularly obvious with Fate/Fudge dice which has a steep hump as its bell curve.
For those of you who are unfamiliar with this, you can play with these at anydice.com
http://anydice.com/program/76eb For fate rolls, for example.
I like 'em cuz they're relatively simple to understand. 1 to 100, anything else is basic additive/subtractive math I learned in school that never left me.
Quote from: Madprofessor;957880Well ok but, a d100 is *exactly* as random as any other die.
Quote from: Madprofessor;957880there seems to be a perception in this thread that d100 is somehow more random than other dice because the numbers are bigger... er something.
Well... That defines on how you define degrees of randomness. I would actually say that a d100 (or other linear distribution) is more random than 3d6 (or other curved distribution) because your chances of guessing the result of a curved roll prior to rolling are substantially better than your chances of guessing a linear roll with the same range. If I try to guess a d100, I only have a 1% chance to be right, but for 5d100/5, I can guess 50 and have about a 3% chance of getting it.
Also, my impression from the discussion around the "RNG cheating" claims is that, even when the complainers have been saying all the right things to show an intellectual understanding of how percentages work, they don't really grok it on an intuitive level and expect most results to cluster around the average - "Well, yeah, any number from 1 to 100 is equally likely, but 50 is the average, so it should be about 50 most of the time." Bell curves meet that expectation. Linear distributions don't, which leads to people misunderstanding them.
I still don't get how people will insist that linear distributions and curved distributions make a lick of difference in a mechanic centered around rolling against a target number. It will make a difference when generating set of numbers, when dealing with modifiers, successlevels and averages, but that's where the actual design-bit in gamedesign comes in.
The BRP-d100's main advantage over many of the others is its ridiculous simplicity and transparency (making it easy to understand and use), combined with a fairly high degree of granularity and modularity (making it very versatile), and topped off with a solid core designed around it. As an RNG, it is just one of many. As a core gamemechanic, it's pretty nifty.
A lot of reasons for folks using 3d6 (and variants). Not the least of which is that d6 is available at the local gas station. Folks are familiar with craps, and thus bell curves are somewhat culturally ingrained. They pay attention to the result and not the probability.
The granularity does contribute to the perception of randomness. You can miss by 1 in a d100 and 1 in a d20 and they are a lot different - 5x as much :)
I think for my group the blackjack resolution was the hard part. However, I had also never heard the term before this thread, and saying that makes perfect sense now - highest without going over, just like blackjack.
It also helped me think about how to implement advantage/ disadvantage ala d&d5e. I like the mechanic, but I was getting hung up for doing it d100. I just need to remember "highest within the band" and it'll work just fine.
Some of the Boons of BRP and its kin:
Simple, transparent mechanics that get out of the way, IMO, and this aids in IC play.
For the most part, verisimilitude and human scale is the base line - especially for combat.
Elegant and natural advancement system - though it can be abused if a GM doesn't know how to handle it.
There are lots of magic systems to chose from - but none of them are as systematic or complete as D&D. For me that makes magic seem more mysterious (and magical?).
Versatile! - there are tons of options and ways to tweek or blend the games.
Pretty much zero gamist or narativist influence. It's pretty straight old school traditional RPG - whatever the hell that means.
Banes:
None for me, but all of the above could be for some.
Quote from: Raleel;958140It also helped me think about how to implement advantage/ disadvantage ala d&d5e. I like the mechanic, but I was getting hung up for doing it d100.
Zweihänder basically does percentile "Advantage/Disadvantage", in the guise of "Flip to Succeed" and "Flip to Fail". It's pretty much what it says on the tin - after rolling the dice, switch the tens and the ones if that will change a failure to success or vice-versa, depending on which you've got.
TBH what CoC 7e does for Advantage/Disadvantage (rolling an extra 10's die) works well enough for me in any d100/BRP game and avoids the issue with some players switching their 10's and units dice 'by mistake'.
Quote from: nDervish;958351Zweihänder basically does percentile "Advantage/Disadvantage", in the guise of "Flip to Succeed" and "Flip to Fail". It's pretty much what it says on the tin - after rolling the dice, switch the tens and the ones if that will change a failure to success or vice-versa, depending on which you've got.
yea, that's an option I read somewhere and started using a while ago. Very popular with my group, because they can predict the result, I suspect.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;958369TBH what CoC 7e does for Advantage/Disadvantage (rolling an extra 10's die) works well enough for me in any d100/BRP game and avoids the issue with some players switching their 10's and units dice 'by mistake'.
I had thought of this, though I've not spent the time to figure the odds on it.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;958369TBH what CoC 7e does for Advantage/Disadvantage (rolling an extra 10's die) works well enough for me in any d100/BRP game and avoids the issue with some players switching their 10's and units dice 'by mistake'.
Do they not establish one color for 10s and another for 1s, or use those dice that have 00-90 on one and 0-9 on the other?
Quote from: nDervish;958351Zweihänder basically does percentile "Advantage/Disadvantage", in the guise of "Flip to Succeed" and "Flip to Fail". It's pretty much what it says on the tin - after rolling the dice, switch the tens and the ones if that will change a failure to success or vice-versa, depending on which you've got.
Zweihander also has a rule where a character can assist another at certain skill rolls, adding 'their' tens die to the original character's roll, and choosing the best result.
Quote from: Dumarest;958379Do they not establish one color for 10s and another for 1s, or use those dice that have 00-90 on one and 0-9 on the other?
Some players seem to switch which d10 is the tens and which the units on a regular basis throughout a game. I use a D10 and D00 to make it clear but some folks who have never bought a d100 pair and use D10's left over from WW WOD games don't seem to been too concerned about appearing to be less than honest.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;958484Some players seem to switch which d10 is the tens and which the units on a regular basis throughout a game. I use a D10 and D00 to make it clear but some folks who have never bought a d100 pair and use D10's left over from WW WOD games don't seem to been too concerned about appearing to be less than honest.
I always establish out the outset "red is tens and yellow is ones" and that's that. No switching.
I never understood the point of cheating in roleplaying games. You gain nothing and lose the respect of everyone at the table if they notice. Plus sometimes the best games result from some lousy rolls of the dice.
For some players 'winning' is the aim of the game, not necessarily having a good time pretending to be an Elf. The same folks will often read a scenario ahead of time to allow them to 'win' as quickly as possible. I blame the insidious rise of CRPGs which have a very different premise because they are one player games.
Quote from: Dumarest;959647I never understood the point of cheating in roleplaying games.
Yeah, I don't think cheatability is a fault of d100/BRP, it's a fault of humans that should be kicked out from one's table.
I've run some d100 games (MRQII, CoC) and the feedback from the players is interesting. They didn't like RQ because, in combat, the defender gets a parry/dodge roll - they've been playing D&D mostly and prefer a success on the to-hit roll to be a success, to have a success negated was a drag. However, in Call of Cthulhu, this has never been an issue; I'm guessing it's because the investigative horror genre is separate enough from adventuring-fantasy that D&D's expectations don't overlap with d100.
I'd say that some players new to RQ have trouble because their expectations are a D&D experience, and RQ is certainly different. The same players don't have trouble with CoC because there are no such expectations that CoC should feel like D&D.
For d%, you either have different colors (and I have a lot of options you can choose from), a tens and ones set, or you always read them Left to Right, or if that cannot be determined, Top to Bottom (in relation to the table edge closest to the rolling player).
Never had a controversy.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;958369TBH what CoC 7e does for Advantage/Disadvantage (rolling an extra 10's die) works well enough for me in any d100/BRP game and avoids the issue with some players switching their 10's and units dice 'by mistake'.
How does advantage work? (I'm guessing you roll 2 ten's dice and take the best?) Is there a corresponding disadvantage mechanic?
Quote from: Aglondir;959777How does advantage work? (I'm guessing you roll 2 ten's dice and take the best?) Is there a corresponding disadvantage mechanic?
I don't know why you would need advantage and disadvantage dice. I've always used simple modifiers +10/-10, +20/-20, +30/-30, etc. Works without a hitch. Not there is anything wrong with an advantage/disadvantage die if that's what you want, I just don't see the point in replacing perfectly simple and functional mechanics.
Advantage is indeed two 10's dice and take the best. Disadvantage, surprisingly, is roll two 10's dice and take the worst. So easy someone should have thought of it earlier. For math challenged players it's easier than calculating plus 10% or plus 20% let alone minus 25%. Nowadays we seem to have more and more folks who aren't very capable with mental arithmetic and have trouble adding, subtracting and multiply (or dividing) numbers. Could be the rise of diagnoses that give folks with issues a label to hang their problems on, could be lack of learning multiplication tables by rote until they are ingrained into the child's brain.
Quote from: Madprofessor;959778I don't know why you would need advantage and disadvantage dice. I've always used simple modifiers +10/-10, +20/-20, +30/-30, etc. Works without a hitch. Not there is anything wrong with an advantage/disadvantage die if that's what you want, I just don't see the point in replacing perfectly simple and functional mechanics.
Innumerate players aside, some people just like non-linear modifiers. Which is also one of the reasons that some (presumably mostly the same) people prefer curved over linear dice systems.
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Quote from: Madprofessor;959778I don't know why you would need advantage and disadvantage dice. I've always used simple modifiers +10/-10, +20/-20, +30/-30, etc. Works without a hitch. Not there is anything wrong with an advantage/disadvantage die if that's what you want, I just don't see the point in replacing perfectly simple and functional mechanics.
To me, it's use in 7e just came off as an a further attempt to add gimmicks or boardgamish widgets (as with 7e's chase mini-game). Someone thought it would be more 'fun'.
Quote from: Madprofessor;959778I don't know why you would need advantage and disadvantage dice. I've always used simple modifiers +10/-10, +20/-20, +30/-30, etc. Works without a hitch. Not there is anything wrong with an advantage/disadvantage die if that's what you want, I just don't see the point in replacing perfectly simple and functional mechanics.
In d&d5e, advantage/disadvantage is roll 2d20 and take the best or worst. The point of it is that it allows for an alteration of the probability curve without explicitly adding anything. It's less about math ability and more about distorting probability. In the case of d&d5e, it was specifically put in to avoid adding 5 or six different bonuses to the die. They call it "bounded accuracy"
If you plot a curve of that, you'll see that a straight additive factor merely shifts the single die roll up, while rolling multiples makes a bell curve. The bell curve, in turn, helps or hinders those will a middle success chance the most, and those with an extreme success chance (low or high skill) the least. This tends to incentivize the activities which grant advantage or disadvantage by those who need the help and not so much by those who don't.
In my case, I like it because the straight bonus on d100 can shoot you over 100, and (in Mythras at least) this will cause additional maths where you end up subtracting the amount over 100 from both you and the opponent's skill. An advantage mechanic where you just roll again and take the best result (with blackjack resultion not just the highest number) can avoid that situation quite nicely and a solid bonus.
The difference between D&D5 and CoC7 here is that rolling 2d20 in D&D is far more elegant than 3d10 in CoC.
Quote from: baragei;959808The difference between D&D5 and CoC7 here is that rolling 2d20 in D&D is far more elegant than 3d10 in CoC.
I have to agree there. Frankly, it's one of the best moves in d&d5e in its history. Very smart.
What I don't like about rolling an extra 10s is that it prevents you from getting a 45 and get success when you rolled a 46 and failed. I'll just recollection both dice and compare success levels.
I like advantage/ disadvantage, but getting rid of complex modifiers and just having a +/-30%* would do the trick, too. If you feel it should be easier, don't bother rolling, make it routine. If you feel it should be harder, don't bother rolling, make it impossible. The main issue I take with modifiers is that they are usually too fiddly, and there are usually too many.
* Or something. I haven't done the maths, but I was under the impression that advantage in D&D 5E is equivalent to +5.
Quote from: Vile;959815I like advantage/ disadvantage, but getting rid of complex modifiers and just having a +/-30%* would do the trick, too. If you feel it should be easier, don't bother rolling, make it routine. If you feel it should be harder, don't bother rolling, make it impossible. The main issue I take with modifiers is that they are usually too fiddly, and there are usually too many.
* Or something. I haven't done the maths, but I was under the impression that advantage in D&D 5E is equivalent to +5.
In d&d advantage is equivalent to +5 if you have 50/50 shot. If you have an 80% chance, it's more like a +2. Same if you have a 20% chance. Think of it, in a d100 sense, as adding half the distance between your skill and the nearer of 01 or 100. So if you have a 20%, add 10%. If you have an 80%, add 10%. If you have a 50%, add 25%
Quote from: Raleel;959817Think of it, in a d100 sense, as adding half the distance between your skill and the nearer of 01 or 100. So if you have a 20%, add 10%. If you have an 80%, add 10%. If you have a 50%, add 25%
Meh. I think I'll just stick with adding bonuses and penalties... or declaring actions as Difficult (1/2 skill) or Easy (2x skill).
There usually aren't all that many influencial elements coming into play that it bogs things down with calculations.
I can see the benefit in D&D though.
Quote from: Vile;959815I like advantage/ disadvantage, but getting rid of complex modifiers and just having a +/-30%* would do the trick, too. If you feel it should be easier, don't bother rolling, make it routine. If you feel it should be harder, don't bother rolling, make it impossible.
I like the core of the BGB: no modifiers, halve your skill, double your skill or automatic failure/success. In the world of bounded accuracies and whatnot it probably doesn't fly, but it still gets the job done spiffingly.
Quote from: baragei;959808The difference between D&D5 and CoC7 here is that rolling 2d20 in D&D is far more elegant than 3d10 in CoC.
Agreed, which is why I prefer Flip to Succeed/Flip to Fail to emulate Advantage/Disadvantage on percentile rolls instead of rolling an extra tens die. Same basic effect, but with no extra dice required. It even takes a step out of the rolling process when it comes into play, since you don't need to pre-declare which die is tens and which is ones. (Although that does leave some room for people to cheat by "getting confused" on rolls that they aren't supposed to flip.)