Quote from: Zak S on November 14, 2023, 04:11:29 AM
A key issue is that two things existed before the TTRPGs as we know them:

Wargames (these have simulation--the little cannon represents a cannon)

and

Drama class exercises and parlor games where people play improvised roles ("Let's all pretend we're on a sailing ship"). These have simulation because part of the fun is the power of imagining alternate circumstances.

To distinguish the thing we call TTRPGs you need to show how neither of those historical precedents are what you're talking about.

I'd say a TTRPG--commercially and historically speaking--is a wide group of activities which have elements in the overlap of wargame and improv acting games. All RPGs have at least one element from each thing--even ones without war have, say, rules for simulating objects and their properties.

Can you directly link drama classes with RPG development with any evidence?  To my knowledge, the drama class connection came after D&D was on the market.  I would be interested in learning about one of the early designers bringing in theater exercises as part of game play.

Quote from: BadApple on December 22, 2023, 09:40:56 AM

Quote from: Zak S on November 14, 2023, 04:11:29 AM
A key issue is that two things existed before the TTRPGs as we know them:

Wargames (these have simulation--the little cannon represents a cannon)

and

Drama class exercises and parlor games where people play improvised roles ("Let's all pretend we're on a sailing ship"). These have simulation because part of the fun is the power of imagining alternate circumstances.

To distinguish the thing we call TTRPGs you need to show how neither of those historical precedents are what you're talking about.

I'd say a TTRPG--commercially and historically speaking--is a wide group of activities which have elements in the overlap of wargame and improv acting games. All RPGs have at least one element from each thing--even ones without war have, say, rules for simulating objects and their properties.

Can you directly link drama classes with RPG development with any evidence?  To my knowledge, the drama class connection came after D&D was on the market.  I would be interested in learning about one of the early designers bringing in theater exercises as part of game play.

I absolutely am not claiming that the creators of RPGs were trying to reproduce or copy anything from a drama class or learned anything from one--I'm just saying that all the games people call tabletop RPGs share elements with acting exercises (most obviously: you play a single character and decide their actions).

They resemble these games (and even earlier improv forms like commedia del'arte) in some respects, but I don't know of any case where they grew out of them.

Just, in trying to define an RPG in any way that couldn't also refer to a bajillion other things which nobody calls RPGs, you basically point to this stretch of activities that lies in the center of a Venn diagram with wargames on one side and improv theatre on the other.

Like wargames: there is chance, often simulated violence and genres characterize the game, there are attempts to create rules which simulate or at least refer to real-world or genre-defined environmental and tactical conditions, and an attempt to achieve something where success is in doubt and measurable (you die or don't, you level up or don't, etc) often in competitive ways.

Like improve theatre: you play a single character, you decide their actions based on an invented personality or set of characteristics (stats, etc), the character remains consistent (at least until you die) but deals with a series of different situations created at least partially by someone else, you play as a member of an ensemble together with other people.

Pretty much every game which has everything from column A and everything from Column B is sold and marketed as a role-playing game.

Quote from: Zak S on December 22, 2023, 10:28:24 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 22, 2023, 09:40:56 AM

Quote from: Zak S on November 14, 2023, 04:11:29 AM
A key issue is that two things existed before the TTRPGs as we know them:

Wargames (these have simulation--the little cannon represents a cannon)

and

Drama class exercises and parlor games where people play improvised roles ("Let's all pretend we're on a sailing ship"). These have simulation because part of the fun is the power of imagining alternate circumstances.

To distinguish the thing we call TTRPGs you need to show how neither of those historical precedents are what you're talking about.

I'd say a TTRPG--commercially and historically speaking--is a wide group of activities which have elements in the overlap of wargame and improv acting games. All RPGs have at least one element from each thing--even ones without war have, say, rules for simulating objects and their properties.

Can you directly link drama classes with RPG development with any evidence?  To my knowledge, the drama class connection came after D&D was on the market.  I would be interested in learning about one of the early designers bringing in theater exercises as part of game play.

I absolutely am not claiming that the creators of RPGs were trying to reproduce or copy anything from a drama class or learned anything from one--I'm just saying that all the games people call tabletop RPGs share elements with acting exercises (most obviously: you play a single character and decide their actions).

They resemble these games (and even earlier improv forms like commedia del'arte) in some respects, but I don't know of any case where they grew out of them.

Just, in trying to define an RPG in any way that couldn't also refer to a bajillion other things which nobody calls RPGs, you basically point to this stretch of activities that lies in the center of a Venn diagram with wargames on one side and improv theatre on the other.

Like wargames: there is chance, often simulated violence and genres characterize the game, there are attempts to create rules which simulate or at least refer to real-world or genre-defined environmental and tactical conditions, and an attempt to achieve something where success is in doubt and measurable (you die or don't, you level up or don't, etc) often in competitive ways.

Like improve theatre: you play a single character, you decide their actions based on an invented personality or set of characteristics (stats, etc), the character remains consistent (at least until you die) but deals with a series of different situations created at least partially by someone else, you play as a member of an ensemble together with other people.

Pretty much every game which has everything from column A and everything from Column B is sold and marketed as a role-playing game.

Ok, I see now what you were saying.  The way I read it made it seem to me that you were suggesting that TTRPGs were derived from war games and improv.

To me, a role playing game need only have two conditions; one is that the players assume a role and the other it has some structure to it that it isn't just free form.  If a player has any third party control over the character or the ability to influence the game world other than through the PC then the player isn't role playing.  With this in mind, there's a wide variety of games that meet this criteria like solo journal RPGs, share character games (Everyone is John), and various levels of structure and focus.

Quote from: BadApple on December 22, 2023, 04:41:33 PM

Quote from: Zak S on December 22, 2023, 10:28:24 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 22, 2023, 09:40:56 AM

Quote from: Zak S on November 14, 2023, 04:11:29 AM
A key issue is that two things existed before the TTRPGs as we know them:

Wargames (these have simulation--the little cannon represents a cannon)

and

Drama class exercises and parlor games where people play improvised roles ("Let's all pretend we're on a sailing ship"). These have simulation because part of the fun is the power of imagining alternate circumstances.

To distinguish the thing we call TTRPGs you need to show how neither of those historical precedents are what you're talking about.

I'd say a TTRPG--commercially and historically speaking--is a wide group of activities which have elements in the overlap of wargame and improv acting games. All RPGs have at least one element from each thing--even ones without war have, say, rules for simulating objects and their properties.

Can you directly link drama classes with RPG development with any evidence?  To my knowledge, the drama class connection came after D&D was on the market.  I would be interested in learning about one of the early designers bringing in theater exercises as part of game play.

I absolutely am not claiming that the creators of RPGs were trying to reproduce or copy anything from a drama class or learned anything from one--I'm just saying that all the games people call tabletop RPGs share elements with acting exercises (most obviously: you play a single character and decide their actions).

They resemble these games (and even earlier improv forms like commedia del'arte) in some respects, but I don't know of any case where they grew out of them.

Just, in trying to define an RPG in any way that couldn't also refer to a bajillion other things which nobody calls RPGs, you basically point to this stretch of activities that lies in the center of a Venn diagram with wargames on one side and improv theatre on the other.

Like wargames: there is chance, often simulated violence and genres characterize the game, there are attempts to create rules which simulate or at least refer to real-world or genre-defined environmental and tactical conditions, and an attempt to achieve something where success is in doubt and measurable (you die or don't, you level up or don't, etc) often in competitive ways.

Like improve theatre: you play a single character, you decide their actions based on an invented personality or set of characteristics (stats, etc), the character remains consistent (at least until you die) but deals with a series of different situations created at least partially by someone else, you play as a member of an ensemble together with other people.

Pretty much every game which has everything from column A and everything from Column B is sold and marketed as a role-playing game.

Ok, I see now what you were saying.  The way I read it made it seem to me that you were suggesting that TTRPGs were derived from war games and improv.

To me, a role playing game need only have two conditions; one is that the players assume a role and the other it has some structure to it that it isn't just free form.  If a player has any third party control over the character or the ability to influence the game world other than through the PC then the player isn't role playing.  With this in mind, there's a wide variety of games that meet this criteria like solo journal RPGs, share character games (Everyone is John), and various levels of structure and focus.

well, there's nothing wrong with saying that that's your definition it isn't the one that I would use in the kind of context that were in like an RPG forum because it includes thousands of activities completely unrelated to what we're talking about when we say RPG.

For example, a person participating in  aknock, knock joke fits your definition.

Quote from: Zak S on December 22, 2023, 04:59:45 PM

Quote from: BadApple on December 22, 2023, 04:41:33 PM

Quote from: Zak S on December 22, 2023, 10:28:24 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 22, 2023, 09:40:56 AM

Quote from: Zak S on November 14, 2023, 04:11:29 AM
A key issue is that two things existed before the TTRPGs as we know them:

Wargames (these have simulation--the little cannon represents a cannon)

and

Drama class exercises and parlor games where people play improvised roles ("Let's all pretend we're on a sailing ship"). These have simulation because part of the fun is the power of imagining alternate circumstances.

To distinguish the thing we call TTRPGs you need to show how neither of those historical precedents are what you're talking about.

I'd say a TTRPG--commercially and historically speaking--is a wide group of activities which have elements in the overlap of wargame and improv acting games. All RPGs have at least one element from each thing--even ones without war have, say, rules for simulating objects and their properties.

Can you directly link drama classes with RPG development with any evidence?  To my knowledge, the drama class connection came after D&D was on the market.  I would be interested in learning about one of the early designers bringing in theater exercises as part of game play.

I absolutely am not claiming that the creators of RPGs were trying to reproduce or copy anything from a drama class or learned anything from one--I'm just saying that all the games people call tabletop RPGs share elements with acting exercises (most obviously: you play a single character and decide their actions).

They resemble these games (and even earlier improv forms like commedia del'arte) in some respects, but I don't know of any case where they grew out of them.

Just, in trying to define an RPG in any way that couldn't also refer to a bajillion other things which nobody calls RPGs, you basically point to this stretch of activities that lies in the center of a Venn diagram with wargames on one side and improv theatre on the other.

Like wargames: there is chance, often simulated violence and genres characterize the game, there are attempts to create rules which simulate or at least refer to real-world or genre-defined environmental and tactical conditions, and an attempt to achieve something where success is in doubt and measurable (you die or don't, you level up or don't, etc) often in competitive ways.

Like improve theatre: you play a single character, you decide their actions based on an invented personality or set of characteristics (stats, etc), the character remains consistent (at least until you die) but deals with a series of different situations created at least partially by someone else, you play as a member of an ensemble together with other people.

Pretty much every game which has everything from column A and everything from Column B is sold and marketed as a role-playing game.

Ok, I see now what you were saying.  The way I read it made it seem to me that you were suggesting that TTRPGs were derived from war games and improv.

To me, a role playing game need only have two conditions; one is that the players assume a role and the other it has some structure to it that it isn't just free form.  If a player has any third party control over the character or the ability to influence the game world other than through the PC then the player isn't role playing.  With this in mind, there's a wide variety of games that meet this criteria like solo journal RPGs, share character games (Everyone is John), and various levels of structure and focus.

well, there's nothing wrong with saying that that's your definition it isn't the one that I would use in the kind of context that were in like an RPG forum because it includes thousands of activities completely unrelated to what we're talking about when we say RPG.

For example, a person participating in  aknock, knock joke fits your definition.

Saying that a knock knock joke fits my definition stretches it to the breaking point but I get what you mean.  In the end, there's a lot of subjectivity to what an RPG is and I'm ok with that.  Not every game or every table is suitable for every player.