Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 23, 2023, 02:04:01 PM

Quote from: Klava on August 23, 2023, 08:40:03 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 23, 2023, 07:20:48 AM

Quote from: Klava on August 23, 2023, 02:47:05 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 22, 2023, 06:11:24 PM
The game? You lost me there. You were discussing an actor rehearsing alone. Are you talking about making a game out of that?

no. i'm talking about computer game being to a gamer playing what script, decorations, music etc. would be to an actor rehearsing - a set of stuff to fasilitate roleplaying. some call those kinds of computer games "role playing games", you know >_>.

p.s. one thing that scooter dipshit is right about is my english - it is kinda poor, apologies for that,

In that case, in a computer game without other players you doing the same thing as an actor rehearsing alone. There may other aspects to the game to play but your role playing by yourself has no effect on them. You can both role play AND do other things in the game but your role playing or lack of role playing does not affect the rest of the game. If what you are doing to role play has no affect on the outcome of the game then it really isn't an rpg even though role play is technically possible while doing so if that makes sense.

would you describe roleplaying taking proper effect on aspects of the game for me please. some examples, maybe?

Certainly.

EXAMPLE-Your DM describes a room to you with various contents, and other entrances & exits. There is a trap on one item of furniture in the room and if noise is made while searching, an NPC in an an adjoining room will show up to investigate.

How you describe your character entering, and searching the room has potential game effects. Will you find or set off the trap? Will you make noise drawing the NPC in the next room possibly leading to a social or combat encounter? These are game affecting roleplay actions.

very good, thank you.

judging by that reply, tough, i'd guess that you are not much of a computer gamer, are you? becuase, literally, all of what you described has been happining in those for the longest time. the game describes the room to you - by showing it on the screen - with all the stuff, light sources, furniture, doors and windows. will you push "stealth" button before entering? will you push "search" button - which will slow you to a crawl, but may give you better chances of finding traps? did you acquire a guard badge and uniform before, so, if you fail at stealth you can try and persuade the guards that you are one of them? quite literally, all of this will happens in what some call  "computer rpgs".

launch a Fallout 2 game. create a character with very high strength, endurance and agility, give him "heavy handed" perk and dump as much of the skill points as the game will allow into unarmed combat skill. play through a couple ot starting locations.
now, create a female character with bellow average intelligence, very high charisma, very high luck, give her "sex appeal" perk and dump most of the points into speech. play through the same locations.
then get back to me and tell me that your GM is as good at reflecting "roleplaying actions" in your tabletop game as Fallout 2 is while not even being worthy of the name "rpg" according to some of the posters in this thread.

Quote from: Klava on August 24, 2023, 02:37:10 AM


very good, thank you.

judging by that reply, tough, i'd guess that you are not much of a computer gamer, are you? becuase, literally, all of what you described has been happining in those for the longest time. the game describes the room to you - by showing it on the screen - with all the stuff, light sources, furniture, doors and windows. will you push "stealth" button before entering? will you push "search" button - which will slow you to a crawl, but may give you better chances of finding traps? did you acquire a guard badge and uniform before, so, if you fail at stealth you can try and persuade the guards that you are one of them? quite literally, all of this will happens in what some call  "computer rpgs".

launch a Fallout 2 game. create a character with very high strength, endurance and agility, give him "heavy handed" perk and dump as much of the skill points as the game will allow into unarmed combat skill. play through a couple ot starting locations.
now, create a female character with bellow average intelligence, very high charisma, very high luck, give her "sex appeal" perk and dump most of the points into speech. play through the same locations.
then get back to me and tell me that your GM is as good at reflecting "roleplaying actions" in your tabletop game as Fallout 2 is while not even being worthy of the name "rpg" according to some of the posters in this thread.

I have played some computer games, Including Fallout. What you are describing are scripted responses to your character that depend heavily on the shit your character is front end loaded with. Computer games are great entertainment but don't scratch the same role playing itch that playing a live tabletop rpg does. There are a lot of things you can do in a computer game but you are limited in scope by the programming. The role playing you get to do is limited by what the programmers thought of.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 24, 2023, 07:45:41 AM

Quote from: Klava on August 24, 2023, 02:37:10 AM

very good, thank you.

judging by that reply, tough, i'd guess that you are not much of a computer gamer, are you? becuase, literally, all of what you described has been happining in those for the longest time. the game describes the room to you - by showing it on the screen - with all the stuff, light sources, furniture, doors and windows. will you push "stealth" button before entering? will you push "search" button - which will slow you to a crawl, but may give you better chances of finding traps? did you acquire a guard badge and uniform before, so, if you fail at stealth you can try and persuade the guards that you are one of them? quite literally, all of this will happens in what some call  "computer rpgs".

launch a Fallout 2 game. create a character with very high strength, endurance and agility, give him "heavy handed" perk and dump as much of the skill points as the game will allow into unarmed combat skill. play through a couple ot starting locations.
now, create a female character with bellow average intelligence, very high charisma, very high luck, give her "sex appeal" perk and dump most of the points into speech. play through the same locations.
then get back to me and tell me that your GM is as good at reflecting "roleplaying actions" in your tabletop game as Fallout 2 is while not even being worthy of the name "rpg" according to some of the posters in this thread.

I have played some computer games, Including Fallout. What you are describing are scripted responses to your character that depend heavily on the shit your character is front end loaded with.

right. i also only described the very beginning of the game. if you play much further, Fallout 2 wil start tracking a lot of the choices you make, reputations you gain with in-game factions, even little things like weapons you prefer to use - arguably, more stuff that any human GM possibly could - and reflect that in the situations and possible resolutions it presents to the player. is it all scripted? well, duh. but "rp having no effect on the aspects of the game" - no, that's not the way i'd describe that at all.

QuoteComputer games are great entertainment but don't scratch the same role playing itch that playing a live tabletop rpg does.

i'd hazard a guess that you forgot "for me" in that sentence. maybe it was implied? i can't tell if you are going full scooter on me here, hopefully not.

QuoteThere are a lot of things you can do in a computer game but you are limited in scope by the programming. The role playing you get to do is limited by what the programmers thought of.

and i never said or remotely implied otherwise. one thing computer rpgs lack completely is live on-the-spot reactions - for obvious reasons. which takes us full circle back to my first post:
roleplaying happens, at least partially, in the theater of the mind - that much i think you and i did agree on. a set of stuff designed specifically to facilitates that part alone i, personally, would still call a role playing game. not everybody needs an audience or human interaction to enjoy roleplaying.

Quote from: Klava on August 24, 2023, 08:57:49 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 24, 2023, 07:45:41 AM

Quote from: Klava on August 24, 2023, 02:37:10 AM

very good, thank you.

judging by that reply, tough, i'd guess that you are not much of a computer gamer, are you? becuase, literally, all of what you described has been happining in those for the longest time. the game describes the room to you - by showing it on the screen - with all the stuff, light sources, furniture, doors and windows. will you push "stealth" button before entering? will you push "search" button - which will slow you to a crawl, but may give you better chances of finding traps? did you acquire a guard badge and uniform before, so, if you fail at stealth you can try and persuade the guards that you are one of them? quite literally, all of this will happens in what some call  "computer rpgs".

launch a Fallout 2 game. create a character with very high strength, endurance and agility, give him "heavy handed" perk and dump as much of the skill points as the game will allow into unarmed combat skill. play through a couple ot starting locations.
now, create a female character with bellow average intelligence, very high charisma, very high luck, give her "sex appeal" perk and dump most of the points into speech. play through the same locations.
then get back to me and tell me that your GM is as good at reflecting "roleplaying actions" in your tabletop game as Fallout 2 is while not even being worthy of the name "rpg" according to some of the posters in this thread.

I have played some computer games, Including Fallout. What you are describing are scripted responses to your character that depend heavily on the shit your character is front end loaded with.

right. i also only described the very beginning of the game. if you play much further, Fallout 2 wil start tracking a lot of the choices you make, reputations you gain with in-game factions, even little things like weapons you prefer to use - arguably, more stuff that any human GM possibly could - and reflect that in the situations and possible resolutions it presents to the player. is it all scripted? well, duh. but "rp having no effect on the aspects of the game" - no, that's not the way i'd describe that at all.

QuoteComputer games are great entertainment but don't scratch the same role playing itch that playing a live tabletop rpg does.

i'd hazard a guess that you forgot "for me" in that sentence. maybe it was implied? i can't tell if you are going full scooter on me here, hopefully not.

QuoteThere are a lot of things you can do in a computer game but you are limited in scope by the programming. The role playing you get to do is limited by what the programmers thought of.

and i never said or remotely implied otherwise. one thing computer rpgs lack completely is live on-the-spot reactions - for obvious reasons. which takes us full circle back to my first post:
roleplaying happens, at least partially, in the theater of the mind - that much i think you and i did agree on. a set of stuff designed specifically to facilitates that part alone i, personally, would still call a role playing game. not everybody needs an audience or human interaction to enjoy roleplaying.

Well, < FOR ME> the joy of role playing is because of spontaneous action and coloring outside the lines in a manner that currently, only a human GM can facilitate. Pushing option buttons can be a lot of fun to see where a game goes next but doesn't satisfy that role playing hunger.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 24, 2023, 11:18:19 AM
Well, < FOR ME> the joy of role playing is because of spontaneous action and coloring outside the lines in a manner that currently, only a human GM can facilitate. Pushing option buttons can be a lot of fun to see where a game goes next but doesn't satisfy that role playing hunger.

very good, thank you for this exchange. the no true scotsman bs thrown all around these forums by some was getting kinda old.

The distinguishing feature of RPGs is constantly arguing about what makes an RPG. 

There's a difference between "roleplaying games" the way the term is used in the context of TTRPGs and the way that the term is used in other games that might be tangentially related to TTRPGs, but are not TTRPGs in the strictest sense (and this includes the afore mentioned "solo adventures", as well as video game "RPGs" and board games or wargames with "roleplaying" elements).

"Roleplaying Games" in the TTRPG sense refers to games where you play a character who's hypothetically a "real" person with full agency that exists within a simulated world/"reality" capable of spontaneously reacting to their actions.

"Roleplaying Games" in any other sense involves some type of game (including introductory solo adventures for TTRPGs) where you play a character who technically plays a role, where that character only has limited agency and the simulated world/"reality" is limited to scripted events when reacting to the character's actions. Those types of games or scenarios (e.g. solo adventures) are not "RPGs" in the sense normally meant in the full context (as opposed to abridged contexts, such as solo adventures) of TTRPGs.

This is not a No True Scotsman. These are fundamental differences in the way the same term is used in different contexts. You can't "roleplay" in the way the term is used in a TTRPG when playing a game that doesn't allow full agency or is capable of spontaneously reacting to your character's actions in a non-scripted manner.

One minor pedantic disagreement I have with some people arguing on what might be called the "non-TTRPGs are not RPGs" side of this discussion is that achieving "Roleplaying" in a "TTRPG" sense (for lack of a better term) requires a "human GM" to facilitate the experience. Theoretically, it could also be facilitated by a non-human entity with comparable intelligence, including a True AI. Also, this could theoretically take place in a computer game, assuming that that game was run by an intelligent entity capable of spontaneously reacting to your character's actions in a non-scripted manner.

But if your character isn't a "real" person in the simulated world and doesn't have full agency and the simulated world is not capable of spontaneously reacting to your character's actions in a non-scripted manner, then the "roleplaying" that takes place isn't "roleplaying" in the way that the term is used in TTRPGs.

I guess with that definition, improv and improv games that involve collaboratively creating a scenario and its characters... might more closely fit the specific type of roleplaying one would typically see in TTRPGs as regards player agency and world interactivity/simulation than computer rpgs even with heavier choice, interaction and consequence mechanics? Mainly because of the depth of options and opportunities for scenario interaction afforded. (Though for the game part of rpG or ttrpG, I could maybe see it going the other way.)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on August 24, 2023, 02:02:04 PM
The distinguishing feature of RPGs is constantly arguing about what makes an RPG. 

Well, it gets very difficult to nail down the terms.  To an avid story gamers, they are playing focused RPGs that are careful to home in on either a narrativism, gamism, or simulation model.  Though probably not the latter.  To me, a story game is where the participants play a game that simulates playing an RPG. 

Quote from: KindaMeh on August 24, 2023, 02:35:57 PM
I guess with that definition, improv and improv games that involve collaboratively creating a scenario and its characters... might more closely fit the specific type of roleplaying one would typically see in TTRPGs as regards player agency and world interactivity/simulation than computer rpgs even with heavier choice, interaction and consequence mechanics? Mainly because of the depth of options and opportunities for scenario interaction afforded. (Though for the game part of rpG or ttrpG, I could maybe see it going the other way.)

LARPs (which are improv games) are closely related to TTRPG and sorta meet that definition. So I guess there might be an overlap in that regard. Will have to think it over, but my immediate reaction is that the definition of "roleplaying" in LARPs at least is basically the same as in TTRPGs.

ETA: LARPs are the only type of games that (I think) meet the same definition of "roleplaying" as in TTRPGs that I can think of.

I had totally forgotten about LARPing and LARPGs. I feel like the latter might actually fit my TTRPG definition at times, in fact, which is weird but kinda fits for me. I was mostly thinking of improv games like they do in drama classes and the like, but you've opened up yet another line of pondering for me, lol. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 24, 2023, 02:58:47 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on August 24, 2023, 02:02:04 PM
The distinguishing feature of RPGs is constantly arguing about what makes an RPG. 

Well, it gets very difficult to nail down the terms.  To an avid story gamers, they are playing focused RPGs that are careful to home in on either a narrativism, gamism, or simulation model.  Though probably not the latter.  To me, a story game is where the participants play a game that simulates playing an RPG. 

I'll admit that storygamers are a sizable faction in TTRPGs. But given how storygaming narrativists sacrifice player agency and a living world to the gods of the story the GM wants to tell, and even GNS gamists (arguably not necessarily storygamers) may burn rational cohesion and weaken player agency or in-game realism on the altar of balance and mechanics above all else...

I'd almost say they'd rather read a book (maybe a CYOA if the gm is more generous about choice consequences) or do campfire storytelling if a narrativist, or play a well-balanced computer or board game if a gamist, then simulate a living world or roleplay characters acting with agency within said world. This is not to say that simulationism is the One True Way (TM), but I do feel like when you attempt to abandon player roleplaying agency and the world and simulated reality it takes place in you are effectively minimizing (though I'd perhaps argue you won't fully be able to eliminate them without leaving the TTRPG genre) core parts to what makes TTRPGs great and unique.

So yeah, I think there is absolutely something to your statement here.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on August 24, 2023, 02:02:04 PM
The distinguishing feature of RPGs is constantly arguing about what makes an RPG. 

i know, right? never understood that part of the discussions like this. one would think that the most productive way to go at it would be the usual - start as simple as you can, lay down the basics, agree on your definitions and expand  from there.

role playing game: it's a game designed to facilitate roleplaying.
done.

and then you can flesh it out:
table top rpg is...
computer rpg is...
mmo rpg is...
what-have-you rpg is...

why would some people get their pants in a knot and start smuggling totally arbitrary shit into something as simple as that is beyond me.

QuoteBut given how storygaming narrativists sacrifice player agency and a living world to the gods of the story the GM wants to tell, and even GNS gamists (arguably not necessarily storygamers) may burn rational cohesion and weaken player agency or in-game realism on the altar of balance and mechanics above all else...

I must admit it's funny how SG-RPG critique widely waver between "it sacrifices player agency for GM story" to "it gives players too much power to override GM decisions".

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 07, 2023, 05:25:34 AM

QuoteBut given how storygaming narrativists sacrifice player agency and a living world to the gods of the story the GM wants to tell, and even GNS gamists (arguably not necessarily storygamers) may burn rational cohesion and weaken player agency or in-game realism on the altar of balance and mechanics above all else...

I must admit it's funny how SG-RPG critique widely waver between "it sacrifices player agency for GM story" to "it gives players too much power to override GM decisions".

Yeah people seem to conflate two related, but very separate schools of RPG-ing under the banner of "story-gaming". The first is the GM-as-storyteller model generally associated with stuff like Vampire: the Masquerade, where a GM is expected to use illusionism, contrivance and railroading to produce a "good story". The second would be the "shared storytelling" school, where the players are given mechanical control over the world and the narrative. The two are definitely related, as they both spring out of the desire to make RPGs tell "better stories", but they're attacking that goal from opposite directions. Personally, I only include the latter school in my definition of "story-gaming", as I think it has to have that fundamental difference in mechanical approach to justify being considered a different type of game. The former is frankly just the mainstream way of playing RPGs these days.