Quote from: VisionStorm on August 22, 2023, 10:12:43 AM

Quote from: Scooter on August 22, 2023, 09:21:55 AM

Quote from: Klava on August 22, 2023, 09:18:42 AM

Quote from: Scooter on August 22, 2023, 09:10:56 AM
Irrelevant question.  Why? Because if you cannot INTERACT there is NO RPing within the game and therefore it is NOT a ROLE PLAYING GAME

you repeated the same statement with no additional explanation given at all. "RP must be interactive" - why?

Already explained.  Your deficiency in English language comprehension doesn't mean it hasn't been adequately explained.

Except that it wasn't. .

I guess technically since the person receiving the communication was not intelligent enough to understand it.  If someone cares to rewrite it so even a turnip can comprehend that would be great.

Quote from: Scooter on August 22, 2023, 05:09:23 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 22, 2023, 10:12:43 AM

Quote from: Scooter on August 22, 2023, 09:21:55 AM

Quote from: Klava on August 22, 2023, 09:18:42 AM

Quote from: Scooter on August 22, 2023, 09:10:56 AM
Irrelevant question.  Why? Because if you cannot INTERACT there is NO RPing within the game and therefore it is NOT a ROLE PLAYING GAME

you repeated the same statement with no additional explanation given at all. "RP must be interactive" - why?

Already explained.  Your deficiency in English language comprehension doesn't mean it hasn't been adequately explained.

Except that it wasn't. .

I guess technically since the person receiving the communication was not intelligent enough to understand it.  If someone cares to rewrite it so even a turnip can comprehend that would be great.

You literally making up your own definition of words and treating them as self evident isn't other people not being intelligent enough to understand WTF you're saying. It's you not knowing WTF you're talking about and being too much of a retard to understand that you're the retard. Then blaming other people for not getting your made up nonsense.

Quote from: Klava on August 22, 2023, 09:59:12 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 22, 2023, 09:51:07 AM

Quote from: Klava on August 22, 2023, 09:35:24 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 22, 2023, 09:29:25 AM
You can role play all by yourself if you like, heck you can do it while going to the grocery store. That doesn't make what you are doing an rpg.

when an acrtor rehearses a role alone - isn't that a kind of role playing? some computer games facilitate similar process imo, and rather well - that's my point.

Sure an actor rehearsing is role playing, so is the person going to the store but neither are playing an rpg. Role play in many forms is possible without interaction. Its the game part that is missing.

the game is there providing for environment, context and immersion. it's there in place of the script, decorations, music and other stuff that actor i mentioned may be using while rehearsing. doesn't that count?

The game? You lost me there. You were discussing an actor rehearsing alone. Are you talking about making a game out of that?

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 21, 2023, 03:19:23 PM
The simplest definition of RPG for me involves something like:

A - It is a game;
B - It involves playing a role for most players;
C - And there is a relation between the two things, i.e., they are not completely separated.

Or, in other words: CRUNCH IS FLUFF. "What defines role-playing games is that the fluff is always important to the crunch, and vice-versa; Role-playing games require BOTH role-playing AND games IN COORDINATION".

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2020/03/rpg-and-design-iii-crunch-is-fluff.html

RPGs must include abstraction AND simulation, but abstraction MUST give in to concrete simulation at some point.

Can you trip an ooze with your trip attack? Well, maybe the rules allow it (as in 4e), but you NEED to have an explanation for that **within the fiction**.

I've generally defined an RPG similarly, but in terms of player behavior:

QuoteAccording to the Oxford English Dictionary, a role-playing game (abbreviated RPG) is ``a game in which players take on the roles of imaginary characters, usually in a setting created by a referee, and thereby vicariously experience the imagined adventures of these characters.''

Of course, this begs the question of what it means to "take on the role" of an imaginary character. In many games you have a character which is really a token without personality. For example, in the boardgame Clue ™ your token is a suspect in a murder mystery. In a video game, your token might be a fighter pilot.

In my opinion, the difference between a token and a role-played character is this: Hypothetically, a person watching the game looks over your shoulder and suggests a move, and your reply is "No, my character wouldn't do that." If this happens, or is capable of happening, then at some level you are playing a role-playing game. This simple distinction puts a world of difference between RPGs and other games.

A lot of games have mechanics that aren't explained with in-game fiction. The classic for me is AD&D magic users not being able to use armor. There was no in-game fiction, and it was unclear what happened if a magic user did wear armor.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 22, 2023, 06:11:24 PM
The game? You lost me there. You were discussing an actor rehearsing alone. Are you talking about making a game out of that?

no. i'm talking about computer game being to a gamer playing what script, decorations, music etc. would be to an actor rehearsing - a set of stuff to fasilitate roleplaying. some call those kinds of computer games "role playing games", you know >_>.

p.s. one thing that scooter dipshit is right about is my english - it is kinda poor, apologies for that,

Quote from: Klava on August 23, 2023, 02:47:05 AMp.s. one thing that scooter dipshit is right about is my english - it is kinda poor, apologies for that,

True. But you're not the only one who's communicating poorly. And at least you have the humility to owe up to it instead of being a dick about it, then blaming others for not understanding what you're saying while implying that they're the ones who're retarded.

Quote from: Klava on August 23, 2023, 02:47:05 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 22, 2023, 06:11:24 PM
The game? You lost me there. You were discussing an actor rehearsing alone. Are you talking about making a game out of that?

no. i'm talking about computer game being to a gamer playing what script, decorations, music etc. would be to an actor rehearsing - a set of stuff to fasilitate roleplaying. some call those kinds of computer games "role playing games", you know >_>.

p.s. one thing that scooter dipshit is right about is my english - it is kinda poor, apologies for that,

In that case, in a computer game without other players you doing the same thing as an actor rehearsing alone. There may other aspects to the game to play but your role playing by yourself has no effect on them. You can both role play AND do other things in the game but your role playing or lack of role playing does not affect the rest of the game. If what you are doing to role play has no affect on the outcome of the game then it really isn't an rpg even though role play is technically possible while doing so if that makes sense.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 23, 2023, 07:20:48 AM

Quote from: Klava on August 23, 2023, 02:47:05 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 22, 2023, 06:11:24 PM
The game? You lost me there. You were discussing an actor rehearsing alone. Are you talking about making a game out of that?

no. i'm talking about computer game being to a gamer playing what script, decorations, music etc. would be to an actor rehearsing - a set of stuff to fasilitate roleplaying. some call those kinds of computer games "role playing games", you know >_>.

p.s. one thing that scooter dipshit is right about is my english - it is kinda poor, apologies for that,

In that case, in a computer game without other players you doing the same thing as an actor rehearsing alone. There may other aspects to the game to play but your role playing by yourself has no effect on them. You can both role play AND do other things in the game but your role playing or lack of role playing does not affect the rest of the game. If what you are doing to role play has no affect on the outcome of the game then it really isn't an rpg even though role play is technically possible while doing so if that makes sense.

would you describe roleplaying taking proper effect on aspects of the game for me please. some examples, maybe?

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 23, 2023, 07:20:48 AM

Quote from: Klava on August 23, 2023, 02:47:05 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 22, 2023, 06:11:24 PM
The game? You lost me there. You were discussing an actor rehearsing alone. Are you talking about making a game out of that?

no. i'm talking about computer game being to a gamer playing what script, decorations, music etc. would be to an actor rehearsing - a set of stuff to fasilitate roleplaying. some call those kinds of computer games "role playing games", you know >_>.

p.s. one thing that scooter dipshit is right about is my english - it is kinda poor, apologies for that,

In that case, in a computer game without other players you doing the same thing as an actor rehearsing alone. There may other aspects to the game to play but your role playing by yourself has no effect on them. You can both role play AND do other things in the game but your role playing or lack of role playing does not affect the rest of the game. If what you are doing to role play has no affect on the outcome of the game then it really isn't an rpg even though role play is technically possible while doing so if that makes sense.

Technically the way you play your role in a video game "RPG" can affect the outcome of the game, since different events throughout the game (potentially even the ending) might be affected by the way you play your character, depending on what type of things have been scripted in the game. The difference is that in a video game all events or possible outcomes are limited by the script and the game's capabilities and programming. While in a TTRPG they are limited only by what the GM allows and possibly by the game's rules or the setting. And possible events and outcomes in a TTRPG are potentially limitless within the bounds of the setting and what's possible in the game world, based on the GM's judgement.

What sets TTRPGs apart is player agency and the GM's ability to adjudicate player actions to allow potentially limitless events and outcomes within the simulated world. While in a video game everything has to be scripted before hand and is inherently limited by programming. So that player actions and all events and outcomes are fundamentally limited by what has already been programmed and scripted into the game. But there's technically "role playing" and even a simulated world that reacts to player actions. But those actions and reactions are limited by programming, while in TTRPG they're only limited by what the GM allows and what players come up with.

Quote from: Klava on August 23, 2023, 08:40:03 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 23, 2023, 07:20:48 AM

Quote from: Klava on August 23, 2023, 02:47:05 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 22, 2023, 06:11:24 PM
The game? You lost me there. You were discussing an actor rehearsing alone. Are you talking about making a game out of that?

no. i'm talking about computer game being to a gamer playing what script, decorations, music etc. would be to an actor rehearsing - a set of stuff to fasilitate roleplaying. some call those kinds of computer games "role playing games", you know >_>.

p.s. one thing that scooter dipshit is right about is my english - it is kinda poor, apologies for that,

In that case, in a computer game without other players you doing the same thing as an actor rehearsing alone. There may other aspects to the game to play but your role playing by yourself has no effect on them. You can both role play AND do other things in the game but your role playing or lack of role playing does not affect the rest of the game. If what you are doing to role play has no affect on the outcome of the game then it really isn't an rpg even though role play is technically possible while doing so if that makes sense.

would you describe roleplaying taking proper effect on aspects of the game for me please. some examples, maybe?

Certainly.

EXAMPLE-Your DM describes a room to you with various contents, and other entrances & exits. There is a trap on one item of furniture in the room and if noise is made while searching, an NPC in an an adjoining room will show up to investigate.

How you describe your character entering, and searching the room has potential game effects. Will you find or set off the trap? Will you make noise drawing the NPC in the next room possibly leading to a social or combat encounter? These are game affecting roleplay actions.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 23, 2023, 09:17:51 AM
What sets TTRPGs apart is player agency and the GM's ability to adjudicate player actions to allow potentially limitless events and outcomes within the simulated world. While in a video game everything has to be scripted before hand and is inherently limited by programming. So that player actions and all events and outcomes are fundamentally limited by what has already been programmed and scripted into the game. But there's technically "role playing" and even a simulated world that reacts to player actions. But those actions and reactions are limited by programming, while in TTRPG they're only limited by what the GM allows and what players come up with.

There have been a number of solo modules for various games - including Tunnels & Trolls, D&D, and others. 3rd edition GURPS even included a solo module as its introduction to play.

So there's a question here. If someone plays the GURPS solo introductory module, are they playing an RPG?

I don't think there's a definite answer to that. There are going to be fuzzy edges no matter what one's definition.

Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2023, 03:34:38 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 23, 2023, 09:17:51 AM
What sets TTRPGs apart is player agency and the GM's ability to adjudicate player actions to allow potentially limitless events and outcomes within the simulated world. While in a video game everything has to be scripted before hand and is inherently limited by programming. So that player actions and all events and outcomes are fundamentally limited by what has already been programmed and scripted into the game. But there's technically "role playing" and even a simulated world that reacts to player actions. But those actions and reactions are limited by programming, while in TTRPG they're only limited by what the GM allows and what players come up with.

There have been a number of solo modules for various games - including Tunnels & Trolls, D&D, and others. 3rd edition GURPS even included a solo module as its introduction to play.

So there's a question here. If someone plays the GURPS solo introductory module, are they playing an RPG?

I don't think there's a definite answer to that. There are going to be fuzzy edges no matter what one's definition.

Now this is quite the interesting hypothetical, from my perspective.

I'd definitely call it an rpg, since it's a game that involves roleplaying, and that's roughly my definition of the rpg category, as opposed to the more specific TTRPG term my earlier definition stuff might apply to.

As for whether it would be a TTRPG by my own definition (of course noting that mine is not the only definition and I would rather enjoy hearing people's own thoughts on jhkim's thought experiment here)...

It definitely has the game elements. You play a character and get into that role, and do things in-character, so for me that satisfies roleplaying. Also making decisions that impact the plot and way that things turn out, all in a world in your own head. So there is potentially a simulated world to some degree (depends on whether you have the arbitration authority and you're putting in the effort to make one, so maybe make that conditional), and you may or may not have the authority of arbitration (some solo gamebooks are rpg CYOAs with no flexibility whilst others have rules and plot hooks and the like but encourage you to effectively arbitrate and gm for yourself, I guess like with ironsworn maybe? So with two conditionals it's not an automatic TTRPG by my definition. But it might not automatically be disqualified, if it could meet simulation and human arbitration guidelines, which I don't know if many or even much of any do in practice.

I'll see the solo GURPS example and raise:  You are planning an RPG session with new players.  None of them know the rules.  As part of introducing them to the mechanics, you give them some pre-generated characters and walk them through a few round of combat, which doesn't "count".  Is that playing an RPG?

My answers is that loosely speaking, yes--strictly speaking, no.  It's fuzzy, because as part of that walk-through, you might show them how adjudicating works, and the players might start to get into their characters.  However, to me, this example is to playing an RPG--as going to the store, buying a book, pouring a drink, propping up in your chair, and opening the cover is to reading.  It's adjacent to the activity but not the activity itself.

Likewise, making a character is not playing an RPG, though in many cases it would be a necessary prerequisite to playing one.  So much so, that I'd have no objection to loosely throwing it into the thing.  Usually, those kind of distinctions don't really matter all that much.  They do when you want to tease out the essential nature of the thing.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 23, 2023, 05:23:07 PM
I'll see the solo GURPS example and raise:  You are planning an RPG session with new players.  None of them know the rules.  As part of introducing them to the mechanics, you give them some pre-generated characters and walk them through a few round of combat, which doesn't "count".  Is that playing an RPG?

My answers is that loosely speaking, yes--strictly speaking, no.  It's fuzzy, because as part of that walk-through, you might show them how adjudicating works, and the players might start to get into their characters.

My impression is that your definition puts together two things:

(1) the players getting into their characters, and
(2) the GM doing uniquely human adjudication.

There are a number of cases of one without the other, which can blur things.

There are GM-moderated wargames that verge into RPGs, along the lines of "Free Kriegspiel", where a player can try out-of-the-box tactics - but they're not role-playing personalities to their characters. I've played in some Battletech and Star Fleet Battles that edged on this. One of my introductions to RPGs for my son was "Monster Island" - which is human-GMed kaiju battles, which didn't feature much personality.

Conversely, there are times when the players are role-playing, but there isn't uniquely human guidance. This isn't just solo dungeons. I've had times when the GM was largely just mechanically handling the rules and reading from the published module - particularly as a kid or when a kid was GMing (like the first time my nephew GMed). i.e. They just read off what's in the next room according to the map and description. Despite this, the players still all got into playing their characters, with various in-character discussion between them.

Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2023, 06:35:34 PM
My impression is that your definition puts together two things:

(1) the players getting into their characters, and
(2) the GM doing uniquely human adjudication.

There are a number of cases of one without the other, which can blur things.

Yes, because the subject and the OP are asking about the distinguishing features of table-top RPGs.  Thus I think the blurry things aren't in the middle of the Venn diagram.