As opposed to games more generally, I mean.

Some degree of gamism/rules are gonna be in pretty much any game, I feel. So while necessary I wouldn't call the presence of such category defining.

Likewise, it can't be just that and then narrative, story or the like, because CYOA gamebooks have both that AND the first item mentioned. Heck, even video games have both and can often tell a better prewritten story than a gamemaster can on the fly. Likewise a pure narrative approach would not only lose out to novels, cinema, interactive storytelling like Netflix's Bandersnatch, and the like in appeal, but also likely cease to qualify as a game, losing the G in TTRPG.

But in a TTRPG you can interact with a simulated world and attempt pretty much anything you can think of trying. Which is made possible via the presence of a (usually GM) simulated reality of some sort, even if it typically isn't our own reality being simulated. Simulationism.

Likewise you immerse yourself in a character that can act roughly whatever way within the confines of the game. Basically, you have a lot of roleplaying options that are defined and limited only by the rules and scenarios of the game, as they apply to your character, and by the group's social mores. (By this I don't mean you have to be a method actor to play a TTRPG, though I guess some folks could be and many groups and players may enjoy seeing that. What I mean instead is that a core part to a TTRPG is that you get to play at least one character. And that character can typically try to do or be a wide breadth of things that other gaming mediums wouldn't really be able to handle or account for, hence a big part of the appeal.) Roleplaying.


Am I missing some perspective on all this? Or could it really be in a sense just that simple?

Yes, roleplaying is what defines roleplaying games within the subject matter of games generally, and table top defines it further by having a flexible human brain adjudicate the character actions. Simulation is covered under the game part if the mechanics simulate anything, and in the adjudication part in so far as the outcome of an action simulates the reality of the setting.

Quote from: KindaMeh on August 19, 2023, 03:49:18 AM
But in a TTRPG you can interact with a simulated world and attempt pretty much anything you can think of trying. Which is made possible via the presence of a (usually GM) simulated reality of some sort, even if it typically isn't our own reality being simulated. Simulationism.

There is a difference between simulation and emulation, though the lines can get fuzzy at times, and some of what a broader simulation is said to encompass would cover a great deal of emulation as well.  In a more narrow sense, simulation is about cause and effect, in the reality being simulated.  Your character does something that is directly linked to a cause, and then in the game that produces an effect that is consist with what is being simulated.  "World as physics", whatever that physics of that reality is, falls under this heading.  In emulation, you do something vaguely related to a cause, and then in the game that later leads to an effect vaguely related to what is being emulated. 

A GURPS character fights a monster.  A D&D character fights a monster.  The GURPS character swings and stabs with a sword, sometimes dodging, sometimes blocking, and when a blow connects, it is directly linked to a hit  A hit does damage to health, and can often seriously injure or kill in one blow.  It heavily simulates the acts of the character fighting the monster.  The D&D character is narrated as doing all that, but the process in the game is more abstract, with rolling to hit against AC, ablating hit points, and some final result of someone going down.  The process isn't direct, but the results are similar.  (There are also some differences of course, in the complexity of the rules, the timing of the blows, etc.  Some of these are directly chasing simulation and some are because the realities being simulated/emulated are different.  The D&D rules presume, for example, that the fights are more drawn out for the in-game time, because it is emulating certain fantasy fiction.)  You can see the fuzzy line in that example, because GURPS while highly simulation, is still an RPG game model, with concessions to other concerns, and D&D, while abstract, is still loosely touching the process of swinging that sword. 

On the bigger question, I would say that the distinguishing factor of TTRPGs is the mixture of roleplaying, game play, and a human referee adjudicating results.  From a practical perspective, that usually leads to a mixture of simulation and emulation somewhere on that fuzzy line.

A TTRPG is a game where you can play and direct the actions of a character within a simulated world managed by a referee, where the world (including environment and NPCs) reacts to the character's actions within the strictures of that world aided by the game rules without being bound to the strictures of a computer program or some other medium.

So the defining characteristics of a TTRPG would be:



• It's a game.
• It has rules.
• It has a simulated world.
• It has two types of participants: Players and Game Masters (GMs, referees, whatever).
• Events within the game/simulated world are controlled by the decisions of one or more intelligent entities (Players and GMs) and affected by the rules.
• Participants may control one or more characters (PCs or NPCs) and/or a simulated world's environment (GMs only, or to a lesser extent players controlling characters with powers capable of such feats).
• Is not bound by programming or mediums other than the game rules (assuming that those count as "programming", which they might depending on how you define that word).

ETA types of participants.

Quote from: KindaMeh on August 19, 2023, 03:49:18 AM

As opposed to games more generally, I mean.

I can't think of any TTRPGs that are a simulation.  Role playing yes.  Maybe Papers & Paychecks would be a simulation TTRPG.

I think WOTC is hoping AI will change the prevailing paradigm and replace human game masters. They hope that by eliminating human game masters their strategy of marketing exclusively to players can finally be realized. Mu hahahaha! They key to a successful role plaging game is a game master who can keep the game rolling no matter what kind of whacked out crap the players come up with. An AI system might be able to handle some generic situations but it will fall apart eventually.

As far as simulation goes, what is it a particular game is trying to simulate? Is D&D trying to simulate real humans, elves, and dwarves going into a senseless underground maze on a treasure hunt? In order for something to be considered a good simulation it needs to be compared to whatever it is that it is trying to simulate. Sorry to break the hard news to some fanboys but there is no REAL D&D adventuring to compare the TTRPG to.

Role playing can be done by anyone anywhere. It does not require an assumed persona nor a game of any kind. An emergency evacuation drill is simulationist roleplaying in its purest form. The participants are not playing characters and the drill is simulating something that could actually take place. The participants are simply themselves reacting to the drill ( in game stimuli) as if it were actually happening.

In a tabletop rpg the role playing is done through the lens of a character but the most significant part of the whole thing is GAME. The participants are playing fictional personas for entertainment purposes rather than to simulate anything.

The best distinguishing features are live face to face social interaction which many do not get enough of these days and of course, shared SNACKS! Yes a TTRPG can be played VTT style over the internet but the experience loses something. Noticed facial expressions, some spontaneous moments, and of course, shared SNACKS!

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 19, 2023, 07:55:50 PM

The best distinguishing features are live face to face social interaction which many do not get enough of these days and of course, shared SNACKS! Yes a TTRPG can be played VTT style over the internet but the experience loses something. Noticed facial expressions, some spontaneous moments, and of course, shared SNACKS!

Yes, boxes and boxes of good pizza snacked on throughout the game with lots of good soda.  Been doing that since forever.  NOTHING beats face to face TTRPG's when it comes to gaming.

So, I've been thinking my original query over after reading through what folks have posted.

To clarify, I still stand by my belief that a TTRPG being a game, or even a game with roleplaying, is a necessary qualification, but not a sufficient one. Like, there are plenty of computer rpgs where you roleplay a character and there are game mechanics. Heck, even CYOA gamebooks don't really feel like they qualify, to my mind, in that they simply cannot handle freestyle action on the part of the player. They provide scenes, but not realities.

I'm not even wholly convinced that this and then human arbitration is sufficient. Most games played in person without a computer have human arbitration, like sports and many of those weirder boardgames and the like. Heck, barring AI even computer games or adventure books have people who decide what is and isn't going to be a valid action, narrative or the like within the game. The game rules exist, there are arbiters and referees whether explicit or in the form of designers, authors, or fellow players; and you can in theory roleplay or get into character or whatever, potentially even as part of the game. That said, I don't think candyland becomes a TTRPG by right of a referee and method acting.

This in turn leads me into the whole simulation question side of things. I don't think simulationism actually means modeling our present IRL reality. Rather, to me it means creating a particular reality or hypothetical, and then following through on what that might mean. This almost always results in an otherwise unobtainable player agency, because the player can act within a given reality freely, insofar as their stats and abilities support this.

On reflection, I think this player agency within a person-created and fully functional reality or world might be the core of what a TTRPG is to me.

Although yes, I will acknowledge that such simulation and reactive flexibility can only be achieved by the minds of real people, and that the goal of a TTRPG, as opposed to its definition, tends to be fun and interaction within the participating community. (Snacks, I will concede, can be pretty awesome and conducive to this goal, for instance. )

Quote from: KindaMeh on August 21, 2023, 02:28:18 PM

Like, there are plenty of computer rpgs where you roleplay a character

No, there aren't.  You RP to a computer screen and an algorithm?  They are computer games.  NOT role playing games.  You push buttons.  The program doesn't do anything if you RP.  And the "NPCs" aren't RPed either.

Quote from: Scooter on August 21, 2023, 02:36:57 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on August 21, 2023, 02:28:18 PM

Like, there are plenty of computer rpgs where you roleplay a character

No, there aren't.  You RP to a computer screen and an algorithm?  They are computer games.  NOT role playing games.  You push buttons.  The program doesn't do anything if you RP.  And the "NPCs" are RPed either.

I mean, you pick dialogue, perform actions, can get into character, and more. Interacting with NPCs whose dialogue, actions and more, developed by humans are meant to in turn characterize them. To me that's roleplaying, acting within a role or having your character emerge through actions.

But your response kind of connects with what I was thinking earlier, I feel. It sounds like the world doesn't feel living to you, like you are restricted both in agency and the world's simulated responses. To you it sounds like both of those things are an assumed part of Roleplaying. For me I'd probably call them fully simulating an immersive reality.

The simplest definition of RPG for me involves something like:

A - It is a game;
B - It involves playing a role for most players;
C - And there is a relation between the two things, i.e., they are not completely separated.

Or, in other words: CRUNCH IS FLUFF. "What defines role-playing games is that the fluff is always important to the crunch, and vice-versa; Role-playing games require BOTH role-playing AND games IN COORDINATION".

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2020/03/rpg-and-design-iii-crunch-is-fluff.html

RPGs must include abstraction AND simulation, but abstraction MUST give in to concrete simulation at some point.

Can you trip an ooze with your trip attack? Well, maybe the rules allow it (as in 4e), but you NEED to have an explanation for that **within the fiction**.

You can have an entire TTRPG session without snacks. Most game sessions I ever participated on involved no snacks (though, we often, but still not always, ate something after the game). And restricting the concept to just face to face interactions is an arbitrary limitation that ignores the demonstrable fact that you can play a TTRPG online, or technically even by mail (though, that last one is kinda stretching it, I think). Even removing computer programs as game mechanisms is kinda arbitrary, but it wouldn't be a TTRPG (as in tabletop) specifically if a computer was a requirement, as opposed to just an aid.

Snacks and the emotionality of muh shared experiences is a byproduct of TTRPGs, but not a distinguishing feature itself. In fact, those elements can be present in 100% ANY shared activity, without exception whatsoever. Shit, even going to a FUNERAL can, and often does have those. So they can't possibly be a distinguishing feature of TTRPGs.

The distinguishing features necessarily have to be something that's intrinsic to the game, and that sets it apart from other activities. And "roleplaying" on its own can't be it either since, as the OP correctly points out, even participating on a fire drill is technically a form of "roleplaying". And since most (every?) elements found in TTRPGs can also be found elsewhere in some form or another that means that the distinguishing features almost inevitably have to be a combination of elements rather than any single thing.

And one of those things—the most crucial of them, I believe (aside from it being a "game")—is the presence of a simulated world that reacts to the interactions of participants within it in a spontaneous, non-preprogrammed way. Presumably with a referee that's an intelligent entity (not necessarily human, but potentially other hypothetical intelligent species, or even a true AI) capable of judging those interactions and extrapolating their impact upon the game world. Otherwise you just end with any type of video game, or even board games or non-gaming activities potentially applying for the definition.

Quote from: KindaMeh on August 19, 2023, 03:49:18 AM

As opposed to games more generally, I mean.

Some degree of gamism/rules are gonna be in pretty much any game, I feel. So while necessary I wouldn't call the presence of such category defining.

Likewise, it can't be just that and then narrative, story or the like, because CYOA gamebooks have both that AND the first item mentioned. Heck, even video games have both and can often tell a better prewritten story than a gamemaster can on the fly. Likewise a pure narrative approach would not only lose out to novels, cinema, interactive storytelling like Netflix's Bandersnatch, and the like in appeal, but also likely cease to qualify as a game, losing the G in TTRPG.

But in a TTRPG you can interact with a simulated world and attempt pretty much anything you can think of trying. Which is made possible via the presence of a (usually GM) simulated reality of some sort, even if it typically isn't our own reality being simulated. Simulationism.

Likewise you immerse yourself in a character that can act roughly whatever way within the confines of the game. Basically, you have a lot of roleplaying options that are defined and limited only by the rules and scenarios of the game, as they apply to your character, and by the group's social mores. (By this I don't mean you have to be a method actor to play a TTRPG, though I guess some folks could be and many groups and players may enjoy seeing that. What I mean instead is that a core part to a TTRPG is that you get to play at least one character. And that character can typically try to do or be a wide breadth of things that other gaming mediums wouldn't really be able to handle or account for, hence a big part of the appeal.) Roleplaying.


Am I missing some perspective on all this? Or could it really be in a sense just that simple?

Just roleplay your character. It IS that simple. I'm continually amazed by players who fail at games just because they can't do that.

Roleplaying: act out or perform the part of a person or character.

If you can't do that, just go play video games or something 

Quote from: KindaMeh on August 21, 2023, 02:28:18 PM

On reflection, I think this player agency within a person-created and fully functional reality or world might be the core of what a TTRPG is to me.

Technically, it's true that player agency is the important thing, but in the context of role playing, there is no true player agency without a human referee.  So the distinction collapses.  And people get all wound up about player agency as a buzzword, thinking it is about getting to do whatever they want with no consequences as opposed to the reality of it.

On the softball field, you've got a human referee, but no agency to act outside the constraints of the rules.  On the Monopoly board, you can roleplay being the dog or hat all you want, but the dog can't burn down the house on Baltic avenue to protest the hat's rent, much less get sent to jail for it.  If you had a human referee to the Monopoly game, then maybe you can burn down Baltic avenue, but unless you roleplay as the dog or something else, there's player agency but no "character agency", and it still isn't an RPG.

Besides, it's not just having a human referee.  It's having a human referee who adjudicates player actions and the results for the character.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 21, 2023, 03:19:23 PM
The simplest definition of RPG for me involves something like: ...

Wrong.  That is not the definition that is used for games like D&D.

Try again