So far, my favorite stunt system is the one found in the Dragon Age RPG, in which the player is granted a certain number of "stunt points" upon rolling doubles on 3d6, which must immediately be applied to things like bull rushing, tripping, extra damage, etc.

Basically most of the stuff that melee characters can do in 4E, but more organic than the power structure, and it makes more more exciting crits.

Quote from: Shazbot79;384023So far, my favorite stunt system is the one found in the Dragon Age RPG, in which the player is granted a certain number of "stunt points" upon rolling doubles on 3d6, which must immediately be applied to things like bull rushing, tripping, extra damage, etc.

Basically most of the stuff that melee characters can do in 4E, but more organic than the power structure, and it makes more more exciting crits.

Immediately use so you can't store them? and how does level/experience get rolled into the mix. I ask because that seems like a nice elegant system and I can see maybe in D&D taking a nat 20 and instead of taking a double damage there and then putting it into a stunt pool for later use.

Quote from: Shazbot79;384023So far, my favorite stunt system is the one found in the Dragon Age RPG, in which the player is granted a certain number of "stunt points" upon rolling doubles on 3d6, which must immediately be applied to things like bull rushing, tripping, extra damage, etc.

Basically most of the stuff that melee characters can do in 4E, but more organic than the power structure, and it makes more more exciting crits.

I am truly curious about this elegant sounding system, but I haven't read the books to know how it really works.  My one big concern is that of player agency; In other words, is it fun to only get to perform your stunts on lucky rolls?  What about being able to choose when you want to try to perform a stunt?  Lady Luck can be a cruel bitch, and I don't think I want her to have full say over when I can or can't try something.

Quote from: jibbajibba;384029Immediately use so you can't store them? and how does level/experience get rolled into the mix. I ask because that seems like a nice elegant system and I can see maybe in D&D taking a nat 20 and instead of taking a double damage there and then putting it into a stunt pool for later use.

Just so. The stunt points have to be used immediately, or they go away by the start of your next turn. Also, enemies get this too. I like it better this way because there is a bit less bookkeeping involved, and because the system adds an element of unpredictability to what is otherwise a pretty straightforward combat system.

The system itself WOULD be elegant except for one minor nitpick of mine.

The base resolution mechanic is roll 3d6+modifier vs. target number, the higher the better. One of these dice is designated as the "dragon die" (usually a different colored die than the others). If the player rolls doubles, say for example a roll of 4, 4 and 2 (two being the dragon die for the sake of argument) then the character is immediately granted a number of stunt points equal to the value showing on the dragon die (2, in this case).

This system is pretty easy, but the dragon die part just adds complication to the mix. I think it would be better to award a number of stunt points equal to the doubled value, so a roll of 4,4 and 2 would net the character 4 skill points. That way, one could come up with something SUPER exciting when a character rolls triples.

As for levelling, the only real effect it has on this system is that certain talents lower the point cost of certain stunts.

As for a D20 based system, you would need some other form of randomizer to get the same effect.

Quote from: winkingbishop;384031I am truly curious about this elegant sounding system, but I haven't read the books to know how it really works.  My one big concern is that of player agency; In other words, is it fun to only get to perform your stunts on lucky rolls?  What about being able to choose when you want to try to perform a stunt?  Lady Luck can be a cruel bitch, and I don't think I want her to have full say over when I can or can't try something.

The final arbiter of that would be the DM, I suppose.

But the way it works out, you'll be pulling this stuff off about 45% of the time anyway.

By the way, there is a similar system for magic with stunt points affecting spells that you cast which is also a really cool idea.

Unfortunately, the list of available spells is kind of limited.

Quote from: Shazbot79;384034Unfortunately, the list of available spells is kind of limited.

Well, I'm sure they plan to remedy that with the level-scaling publication scheme they are going to use.

Sounds cool.  I had no idea there was a similar mechanic applied to the spells.

Quote from: winkingbishop;384035Well, I'm sure they plan to remedy that with the level-scaling publication scheme they are going to use.

Sounds cool.  I had no idea there was a similar mechanic applied to the spells.

Yeah...way cooler than metamagic feats in my opinion.

Quote from: Shazbot79;384032Just so. The stunt points have to be used immediately, or they go away by the start of your next turn. Also, enemies get this too. I like it better this way because there is a bit less bookkeeping involved, and because the system adds an element of unpredictability to what is otherwise a pretty straightforward combat system.

The system itself WOULD be elegant except for one minor nitpick of mine.

The base resolution mechanic is roll 3d6+modifier vs. target number, the higher the better. One of these dice is designated as the "dragon die" (usually a different colored die than the others). If the player rolls doubles, say for example a roll of 4, 4 and 2 (two being the dragon die for the sake of argument) then the character is immediately granted a number of stunt points equal to the value showing on the dragon die (2, in this case).

This system is pretty easy, but the dragon die part just adds complication to the mix. I think it would be better to award a number of stunt points equal to the doubled value, so a roll of 4,4 and 2 would net the character 4 skill points. That way, one could come up with something SUPER exciting when a character rolls triples.

As for levelling, the only real effect it has on this system is that certain talents lower the point cost of certain stunts.

As for a D20 based system, you would need some other form of randomizer to get the same effect.

I can see your issue on that.
In a D20 system just pooling the 20s that weren't used for double damage might be okay as most of the time the simple double would be the obvious option and bookkeeping is pretty tiny. But you do have class, level and oposition to throw into the mis I guess... although needing a stunt point + 1 point for the level difference but do it...

Quote from: jibbajibba;384054I can see your issue on that.
In a D20 system just pooling the 20s that weren't used for double damage might be okay as most of the time the simple double would be the obvious option and bookkeeping is pretty tiny. But you do have class, level and oposition to throw into the mis I guess... although needing a stunt point + 1 point for the level difference but do it...

Hrm.  Have you considered awarding a stunt-point based on "overkill."  In other words, track degree of success beyond DC.  You could award a bonus point for attacks that would have been a critical hit.  Something like:

Beat AC by 0-5: Zero stunt points for the round.
Beat AC by 6-10: One stunt point
Beat AC by 11-15: Two point
...
And a potential bonus of one stunt point for critical hits.

So gathering a single stunt point is easy for warrior types, which shouldn't be ultimately unbalancing if your 1-point stunts aren't that flashy.  But for those occasional awesome rolls, and awesome rolls that also get a bonus point for a crit, your 3 and 4 point stunts are spectacular.

This way you do not have to track a resource (pool of dice) that persist between rounds too.

I almost like this fledgling idea (or something similar) more than the Dragon Age mechanic.  In terms of rationalizing these stunts, the overkill method acknowledges an interaction between the attacker (BaB) and their defender (AC), rather than simply letting lucky rolls=stunt.

On further thought, it would be more thrilling/satisfying to let attacks that fall in crit threat range to "explode" and potentially achieve greater degrees of success with more potential results.

Quote from: Shazbot79;384023So far, my favorite stunt system is the one found in the Dragon Age RPG, in which the player is granted a certain number of "stunt points" upon rolling doubles on 3d6, which must immediately be applied to things like bull rushing, tripping, extra damage, etc.

Basically most of the stuff that melee characters can do in 4E, but more organic than the power structure, and it makes more more exciting crits.

That sounds wicked cool. Makes me want to try Dragon Age.

Quote from: winkingbishop;384060On further thought, it would be more thrilling/satisfying to let attacks that fall in crit threat range to "explode" and potentially achieve greater degrees of success with more potential results.

What you want to play is Role Master. Come on. You know it. Don't resist.

Quote from: winkingbishop;384057Hrm.  Have you considered awarding a stunt-point based on "overkill."  In other words, track degree of success beyond DC.  You could award a bonus point for attacks that would have been a critical hit.  Something like:

Beat AC by 0-5: Zero stunt points for the round.
Beat AC by 6-10: One stunt point
Beat AC by 11-15: Two point
...
And a potential bonus of one stunt point for critical hits.

So gathering a single stunt point is easy for warrior types, which shouldn't be ultimately unbalancing if your 1-point stunts aren't that flashy.  But for those occasional awesome rolls, and awesome rolls that also get a bonus point for a crit, your 3 and 4 point stunts are spectacular.

This way you do not have to track a resource (pool of dice) that persist between rounds too.

I almost like this fledgling idea (or something similar) more than the Dragon Age mechanic.  In terms of rationalizing these stunts, the overkill method acknowledges an interaction between the attacker (BaB) and their defender (AC), rather than simply letting lucky rolls=stunt.

I did think about it but if you don't track between turns ie build up a pool then a PC can't pull off a stunt at will it becomes a critical hit variant instead. And if you tracked effect number (ie the ammoutn you exceed the hit by) in a pool it gets pretty fiddly pretty quick.

Okay...so to clarify, in Dragon Age, a player can only gain stunt points on a successful attack roll in which doubles come up...which of course, makes perfect sense.

However, I find myself weighing the benefits of granting stunt points even on a missed roll.

Case in point:

During a pitched battle on a rickety suspension bridge, Kull charges an orc as it prepares to strike down the party's Cleric, rolling 3d6 plus his strength modifier (+2), resulting in a 2, a 2 and a 3 for a total of 9, but not enough to overcome the orc's defense value (12). However, Kull does gain 2 stunt points from the roll, which he uses to make a bullrush attempt against the creature. Capitalizing on the momentum of his charge, Kull barrels into the orc who fails it's saving throw and is sent hurtling off the bridge into the chasm below.

I think that this would add a dynamic element to combat, capitalizing on both character skill and player skill.

By the way, has anyone noticed that this Kull fellow is kind of a bad ass? ; p

Quote from: Benoist;384062What you want to play is Role Master. Come on. You know it. Don't resist.

Bite your tongue, you're likely to curse someone with statements like that.  MERP is as close as I got and that was too close.  

Quote from: Shazbot79;384114During a pitched battle on a rickety suspension bridge, Kull charges an orc as it prepares to strike down the party's Cleric, rolling 3d6 plus his strength modifier (+2), resulting in a 2, a 2 and a 3 for a total of 9, but not enough to overcome the orc's defense value (12). However, Kull does gain 2 stunt points from the roll, which he uses to make a bullrush attempt against the creature. Capitalizing on the momentum of his charge, Kull barrels into the orc who fails it's saving throw and is sent hurtling off the bridge into the chasm below.

This scenario illustrates a mental problem I'm having with all of these proposed stunt systems.  You don't have your results until the dice are rolled as part of an attack.  How do they interact with movement?

Forgive me if I can't get out of a D&D frame of mind, but I'm thinking that a turn will consist of a movement phase and an attack.  You need to approach the guy before making your attack.  But in Dragon Age you can perform stunts that have a movement component?  Like this bullrush?

Maybe I'm thinking too grainy.  Does Dragon Age use narrative combat or minis?  If you choose to perform a bullrush stunt after you have already moved do you just pretend the movement hasn't happened yet?

Just can't get my noodle completely around these stunts being declared after the attack roll is made.  I'm much more comfortable in my little box where the player chooses their action first and it subsequently affects die rolls.