This is the smple Stunt System I said I would knock up.... Its got a 2e flavour biut woudl work in any version with some tweaks.

I include a fluff paragraph and a handful of examples so you might argue it's not really a paragraph
It really is just common sense and any experienced DM just knows this stuff it's in our DNA.
If I was doing this for real I would provide a table of variables for the DM to use but mostly its just common sense....


Combat stunts


Combat is not all about running through a series of trained moves like an automoton. A successful warrior seizes every opportunity to give him an advantage and makes use of the environment to give him an edge. To replicae this in we use the system of stunts. Stunts can be anything from throwing sand in an opponents eyes, swinging on a chandalier or pushing them back 10 feet and off a cliff. Any class can attempt a combat stunt but since they run against THACO warriors are more adapt than other classes as you would expect. Stunts can do anything but do not do damage per se but rather do damage as dependent on environment/effect, so pushing someone over a cliff does damage... as does setting fire to them.



To perform a stunt first name what you intend to do and the effect you want to achieve. A stunt has an effect that can last for one round only, so throwing sand at an opponent's eyes will distract them for just 1 round. To perform the stunt make a roll against THACO. The DM may apply a bonus or minus depending on the environment and the PC adds any bonus from Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, so throwing sand gets a dex to hit bonus. If successful the ammount that the roll suceeded by becomes an effect number, so if THACO was 13 and the PC rolls 16 the effect number is 3. If the stunt has a target then the target makes a resistance check (in a perfect world this would be a saving throw but in D&D fighters who should have the highest chance to avoid a stunt effect have some of the worst saving throws so we are going to use THACO again) which is another roll against THACO, to make the save the target needs to exceed his THACO by more than the effect number. If the save fails the stunt works as required. If the stunt has movement effect like pushing the target backwards then the effect number is applied here as well but the DM can apply modifers here as well for elements like size or the environment (someone will move backwards further on ice than on sand for example)



Examples

Pushing an opponent backwards.
Krull is battling with a pair of wights on a narrow ledge. He has no magic weapons and can not damage the undead foe with his broadsword. Instead he elects to use his shield to do a stunt and force on of the wights over the edge. Kull's THACO is 14 (he looses his +3 for weapons specialisation but keeps +1 for his strength) he rolls an 18 for an effect number of 4. The Wight has a THACO of 12 so needs to roll a 16 to resist the effect. The DM rolls an 8 a fial the wight is forced back 4 feet (the effect number) just enough to topple them over the edge and down to the ground below. Note Kull's attack does no damage as he is unable to damage the Wight with out silver or magical weapons. (In another circumstance the attack would have done 1/2 regular damage.

Tripping an opponent
Silk has been caught trying to pick open a lock. Two guards stand over him blocking the alley and preventing his escape. Silk wins initiative and ops to try a stunt. He wants to roll into the guards legs knocking them both over. The DM determines that Silk will get a -2 on the stunt check because Silk is trying to trip 2 opponents. Silk's THACO is 16 he rolls a 16 a success but no effect number. The guards have THACos of 17 and get a resistance check. They roll a 14 and a 13 and so the stunt is a success and both guards fall to the floor. If Silk had failed then he woudl have been prone and both guards would have gained +2 to hit and Silk woudl ahve lost his Dexterity bonus on AC.

Stealing an opponent's weapon.
Kull finds himself cornered by a heavy set Barbarian named Quinn. Kull however has no weapon. Quinn hefts a Battleaxe but on his belt hangs a longsword. Kull makes a call he decides to use a stunt to move past Quinn but to grab and draw the barbarian's blade as he does so. The DM determines that Quinn could act to defend against the stunt or take a free attack and opts for the free attack he rolls a hit and Kull takes 6 damage, however as Quinn opted not to defend against the stunt Kull can stil continue the attempt. He rolls a 15 (his THACO is 15 as he looses his strength and weapons specialisation bonuses) a success. So Kull has spun past Quinn and managed to steal his opponents blade although he took a blow from the battle axe to manage it.

Small correction:

Quote from: jibbajibba;380780(in a perfect world this would be a saving throw but in D&D fighters who should have the highest chance to avoid a stunt effect have some of the worst saving throws so we are going to use THACO again)

This isn't 3rd edition.  Fighters start with some of the worst saving throws, but with a few levels quickly end up in the middle of the pack, or even with the best saves (excluding versus spells).  Still, THAC0 does make more sense.

p.s. THAC0, not THACO

Quote from: 837204563;380783Small correction:



This isn't 3rd edition.  Fighters start with some of the worst saving throws, but with a few levels quickly end up in the middle of the pack, or even with the best saves (excluding versus spells).  Still, THAC0 does make more sense.

p.s. THAC0, not THACO

Fair enough I was putting this together from memory, I still like THACO though, and noice spot on THAC0

Here's my stunt system for D&D that I've used on occasion-

Anytime that you roll a natural 20, you get to describe an additional result of your action- this can include things like knocking down your opponent, pushing him back, moving around them, disarming them, breaking their shield, etc. - be creative.

Mmm. Tacos...



Huh! What? Oh yeah. Yes: Nice houserule. Looks like it works in practice, which is ultimately what matters. If your table's comfortable with it, and it doesn't act in broken ways for you, then it's cool.

Looks workable as far as I can see.
I went back and had a look at the guidelines on combat stunts for 2e in The Complete Fighter ("Don't Say No, Determine Difficulty") and their system was completely different - they suggest ability checks with up to a -10 rather than an attack roll. I'd say this system is better though, since it keeps stunt ability consistent with combat ability.

Pulling of a stunt is relatively difficult here - its as hard as hitting an AC 0 opponent since you're trying to get your THAC0 or better even without considering that an opponent also gets to block - but I guess that's reasonable since the right stunt at the right time can have more effect that just damage.

Right.  Good line of thinking here, very similar to what I've done in the past.  In my incarnation, the stunt was generally a modification to a 'called shot' and thus was still an attack vs. AC (often what we'd now call "touch AC") with negative modifiers.  We retained Saving Throws though, but a different ST depending on the intended effect - you'll recall that 2e had quite a lot of discussion on what the saving throws represented above and beyond their names (i.e. Breath Weapon could be used for an effect in which the character needs to get their whole body out of the way or behind cover).

But, right, I never doubted the basic idea you had in the other thread.  Something more like this is more "extensible" than individual pockets of rules like Powers.

Forgive me, but this seems a bit more cumbersome than it really needs to be as were the examples you cited on the other thread (which is so off topic that it needs to die, else I would have replied there.)

If we're talking about AD&D/Basic rules, then why not make stunts a variation on called shots, requiring the attemptee (is this a word? I've been at work all night) to announce their intent before making the roll and then roll above their THAC0 to succeed?

Yes, this essentially means that higher level melee types are almost always going to succeed, but they're supposed to be awesome at that level. However, this could be mitigated by granting the target the appropriate savings throw.

I'm a fan of unified systems by the way.

Quote from: Shazbot79;382252Forgive me, but this seems a bit more cumbersome than it really needs to be as were the examples you cited on the other thread (which is so off topic that it needs to die, else I would have replied there.)

If we're talking about AD&D/Basic rules, then why not make stunts a variation on called shots, requiring the attemptee (is this a word? I've been at work all night) to announce their intent before making the roll and then roll above their THAC0 to succeed?

Yes, this essentially means that higher level melee types are almost always going to succeed, but they're supposed to be awesome at that level. However, this could be mitigated by granting the target the appropriate savings throw.

I'm a fan of unified systems by the way.

You are right my only issue was how do you track the extent of effects. So how far back can you push someone etc ? The issue here if how do you get am effect number and the easiest way seems to be by taking it from the 'to hit' roll.
I think its one of those things that seems cumbersome on paper but with a good DM (with the ability to do subtraction in their head) its just a roll to hit and a save so ... hard to make it simpler

Quote from: jibbajibba;382258You are right my only issue was how do you track the extent of effects. So how far back can you push someone etc ? The issue here if how do you get am effect number and the easiest way seems to be by taking it from the 'to hit' roll.
I think its one of those things that seems cumbersome on paper but with a good DM (with the ability to do subtraction in their head) its just a roll to hit and a save so ... hard to make it simpler

This is one of the places in which a strength modifier comes in handy.

Here I'd just say that if Kull beats the target roll (in this instance, his THAC0) and if the Wight fails it's saving throw, then Kull manages to push the target a number of feet equal to his movement rate. (Maybe twice that on a nat 20)

It's basically the opposed attack rolls system that 3rd edition D&D uses for disarming.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;382264It's basically the opposed attack rolls system that 3rd edition D&D uses for disarming.

-Frank

Wasn't aware of that as never adopted 3e but yeah opposed attack rolls is the basic mechanic.

As I said this isn't rocket science and I am sure its a non documented mechanic that has been used since forever...

In Swords & Wizardry, I use the core saving throw as the basis for stunts and all Fighting Men get a +2 bonus.  Then depending on the stunt, they get to add the appropriate attribute modifier.

AKA, a 1st level dwarf has a SV of 16 and +1 STR bonus.  If he wanted to shield smash a demon's knee to knock them prone, he'd roll D20 + 3 vs. 16.   That same stunt at 10th level would be D20 + 3 vs. 7.  

As for the opponent's saving throw, I am not a fan of a player doing something cool and then it getting easily negated by NPC rolls.   If it makes sense the NPC should get a save, then I make the PC's bonus into a negative modifier for the NPC's save.   AKA, the demon would have a -3 save against the dwarf's shield smash.

Quote from: Spinachcat;382305In Swords & Wizardry, I use the core saving throw as the basis for stunts and all Fighting Men get a +2 bonus.  Then depending on the stunt, they get to add the appropriate attribute modifier.

AKA, a 1st level dwarf has a SV of 16 and +1 STR bonus.  If he wanted to shield smash a demon's knee to knock them prone, he'd roll D20 + 3 vs. 16.   That same stunt at 10th level would be D20 + 3 vs. 7.  

As for the opponent's saving throw, I am not a fan of a player doing something cool and then it getting easily negated by NPC rolls.   If it makes sense the NPC should get a save, then I make the PC's bonus into a negative modifier for the NPC's save.   AKA, the demon would have a -3 save against the dwarf's shield smash.

If I was designing a system I might well give characters a combat defense value. This value would have 2 uses it would act as an AC (armour itself would would actually make this value worse but absorb damage) and act as the target number for stunts. A stunt would then get a difficulty modifer and you wouldn't have a save as that would be build into the Combat defense. Combat defense would go up with levels and other mods in just the same was as your 'to hit' bonus would go up.

In this system the stunt difficultly modifier would vary from -2 for an easy stunt down to -10 for a very hard stunt. Then you get 1 roll (with an effect number)  

The natural benefit of this is that a 10th level fighter in no armour is still realy hard for a 1st level guy to hit even. Which I certainly used to find when attempting to hit my fencing instructor.

*bump*

A combat defense system is kind of 4th edition-esque, though I don't think its necessarily a bad thing in this case. My only comment would be that where a defense roll is considered to be an action and rolled for, it both 'feels' more like you're doing something to defend, and makes it easier to set up the system for times when a character should take a penalty to their defense. For instance, if you're using an opposed attack roll system, then the 'defense' roll automatically takes penalties for being blinded/disabled/etc, and easily handles instances where the character can't defend themselves at all. Compare for example how Palladium's system handles Parry and Dodge rolls using an opposed roll (attacker d20+Strike bonus vs. Defender d20 +Parry bonus) - it doesn't need a combat penalty condition for 'flatfootedness' or 'surprise' for example, since you can just assume that someone who can't act, doesn't get to make a Parry roll. Fairly elegant, in that regard.

Also, I was pondering how you could broaden out the Stunt system here to work with Magical stunts as well as martial stunts - skating down the balustrade on your Shield spell or trying to use the damaging cold ray to freeze a target in place. Its easy to adapt the stunt system above in games that have a roll for spell malfunction (like Talislanta, say) but harder in D&D since there's no direct equivalent. For 3.5, a Caster level +spellcasting ability modifier roll might work, I guess.