Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 13, 2021, 06:44:02 PM
Well, looks like it was WotC who filled a lawsuit first. It's tenkar so take it with a grain of salt.

This isn't so much "First" as much as the consequences of TSR3.5 trying to file a trademark that they KNEW they didn't have a claim to, and after having been sent several Cease and Desist orders. This is also not a court case in the same fashion as TSR3.5 tried, this is using the law the way that the law actually works.

Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2021, 08:25:35 PM
Except that is not what WOTC did. They slapped a great big "Warning this may be wacist!" stamp on what appears to be every pre-wotc RPG product they own over at DTRPG.

And ... that differs from what I said in what fashion? They pointed at a particular work of fiction and said "the values presented in this were those of the time it was created in."

I don't see any names, I don't see people at all, just "this work of fiction reflects its era."

We've seen similar disclaimers in front of Warner Brothers movies and cartoons, we've seen it in other books, it's ... pretty common. Boring in fact.

And if one more of you says "Those times weren't racist or sexist?"  Dungeons and Dragons came out in the same era that there was a court case to win women the right to get a credit card. A lot of things are a lot more recent than we think. So, the times were different back when I was a kid even. I mean, I shouldn't say this stuff because I don't want to get into a fight, but I just said it because the opinion "the 1970s and 1980s were a different era than today" is LITERALLY something that both the woke and anti-woke crowd agree on.

And some of the anti-woke crowd specifically have the problem that people view things from the past with the sensibilities of the today, and claim that it's not something you should do.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 13, 2021, 08:46:44 PM
What a heap of unprincipled sniveling shitheads WotC have become. "We are fundamentally opposed to the views held in this product we are offering for sale." How do they say this with a straight face?

Really simple. Exactly like they did. Unless you're saying that disagreeing with the presentation of something in a partial fashion completely eliminates all value of that thing. They're saying that the past works have value and are GOOD, they just disagree with some aspect

The do it just like Warner Brothers did, in nearly the same words:

Quote from: hoshisabi on December 13, 2021, 10:39:56 PM
The do it just like Warner Brothers did, in nearly the same words:

This movie is bad and wrong but we still want your money, you biggot.

Quote from: hoshisabi on December 13, 2021, 01:44:23 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 13, 2021, 11:49:06 AM
I will not donate, but it is my hope that both TSR and WotC waste a tremendous amount of money and resolve nothing.

WOTC is owned by Hasbro, they have lawyers on retainer. The lawyers can whip up a reply to this without affecting WOTC/Habsro's budgets in the slightest.

TSR does not have lawyers on retainer, in fact, it could be a REALLY bad thing for them if Hasbro/WOTC ever spent real money on fighting this. The moment that the lawyers start billing for REAL time, suddenly the costs of them LOSING the lawsuit will affect TSR.

And then we'll hear a bunch of anti-woke folks start whining about how WOTC are trying to silence their bull crap. And that's just nonsense, if you understand how things actually worked you'd understand that it's not about sending a message or anything of that sort, it's the people that are manipulating you to profit off of your "outrage."

That's my opinion, and you can disregard my opinion like most folks on this forum do. I've been accused of being SJW plenty, but one of the easiest ways to manipulate people is to spread FUD, and this has all of the signs of that sort of manpulation.

The reason why I am disregarding your opinion is because you are insulting me for not donating any money in the hope that your insults will persuade me into donating money.

Instead of giving money to a questionable legal case, I will spend my money on multiple printed copies of  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/355200/Classic-Traveller-Facsimile-Edition and give them to friends who will use them because that benefits the hobby more.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 14, 2021, 02:11:59 AM
The reason why I am disregarding your opinion is because you are insulting me for not donating any money in the hope that your insults will persuade me into donating money.

Instead of giving money to a questionable legal case, I will spend my money on multiple printed copies of  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/355200/Classic-Traveller-Facsimile-Edition and give them to friends who will use them because that benefits the hobby more.

Isn't that the reverse of what I've been saying? I REALLY don't want you to donate money, I REALLY want you to keep your money, and I REALLY want you to spend it on things that you enjoy.

Go ahead and look at my post history, I might disagree with you about certain political things, but at no point have I wished ill on anyone.

If you enjoy a thing, you buy it and enjoy it, and if you don't, then don't and save your money.

I believe, but have no proof, that this IndieGogo campaign is a way to scam money from folks whose politics are much different than my own, but I don't want to see them donate to a scam. I am literally just a guy, and I have no stake in any of this, and I have no authority in any of this, and you can disregard me as you will. But I figure folks will maybe do a little of their own research and thinking after a few people speak up.

Quote from: Shasarak on December 13, 2021, 11:09:31 PM

(and don't think I forgot you, sir, the brightest spot in my visits here.)

Two thoughts:

1. Let's not pretend Ernie and his gang aren't the grift that keeps on grifting. Between TSR's 2021 summer special and this recent stunt, they started "DaveCon": Because what the world always needed was Ernie and Tim Kask holding a Dave Arneson memorial event. ...Without any communication with or consent from anyone in the Blackmoorsphere, no less. And of coooouuurse, it turned into a trainwreck as quickly as one would imagine. - Not putting a link up here, but basically it's the same trick with different venue: Get your name on some oldschool project, sit on it with the intention of preventing others from using it, ask for money because sitting makes your buttocks wet.

2. Regardless of what some possible legal loopholes might be, neither Ernie nor his cronies have any moral right to the trademarks or to the otherwise directly or indirectly related intellectual properties. There is no case to be made here on their behalf, whatsoever, and the current lawsuit or non-lawsuit doesn't change anything about that. Nobody has ever actively tried to hinder Ernie or his associates of doing anything by themselves, and on their own, and their evident lack of success is not the fault of anyone else but them, from the "Hobby Shop Dungeon" KS to the "Giant Lands", or whatever that one was called. Like, didn't they do "The Lost City of Gaxmoor" before, and wasn't it kind of alright? --- Like, regardless of recent events, there surely exists some parallel universe in which those guys are just sitting in their basements writing cool stuff. It's time they make that universe happen in our reality.

Quote from: hoshisabi on December 14, 2021, 02:28:14 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on December 13, 2021, 11:09:31 PM

(and don't think I forgot you, sir, the brightest spot in my visits here.)

Ah, shucks.

What exactly is WOTC filing a patent suit on?

Could this actually be directed at TRS. Who produce the Dragon Dice game still? I thought they had bought the rights when WOTC was about to destroy the product.

 Ahhh, lawfare the tool of the weak and slack jawed.  Let's bring back dueling in place of law suits.  I have a feeling there will be far fewer duels than law suits.  Though the image of ernie stumbling around trying to poke some spineless executive with a sword entertains me to no end.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 14, 2021, 02:11:59 AM

Quote from: hoshisabi on December 13, 2021, 01:44:23 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 13, 2021, 11:49:06 AM
I will not donate, but it is my hope that both TSR and WotC waste a tremendous amount of money and resolve nothing.

WOTC is owned by Hasbro, they have lawyers on retainer. The lawyers can whip up a reply to this without affecting WOTC/Habsro's budgets in the slightest.

TSR does not have lawyers on retainer, in fact, it could be a REALLY bad thing for them if Hasbro/WOTC ever spent real money on fighting this. The moment that the lawyers start billing for REAL time, suddenly the costs of them LOSING the lawsuit will affect TSR.

And then we'll hear a bunch of anti-woke folks start whining about how WOTC are trying to silence their bull crap. And that's just nonsense, if you understand how things actually worked you'd understand that it's not about sending a message or anything of that sort, it's the people that are manipulating you to profit off of your "outrage."

That's my opinion, and you can disregard my opinion like most folks on this forum do. I've been accused of being SJW plenty, but one of the easiest ways to manipulate people is to spread FUD, and this has all of the signs of that sort of manpulation.

The reason why I am disregarding your opinion is because you are insulting me for not donating any money in the hope that your insults will persuade me into donating money.

Instead of giving money to a questionable legal case, I will spend my money on multiple printed copies of  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/355200/Classic-Traveller-Facsimile-Edition and give them to friends who will use them because that benefits the hobby more.

You probably should read what Hoshisabi is saying if you're going to respond to it because you appear to be in agreement with him. All he did was point out the factually incorrect assumption that WotC could be harmed by this legal annoyance in any way. The rest of your actions comport to what he is suggesting is an appropriate course of action, which is to recognize grifters for what they are and avoid giving them money. And you are most definitely avoiding them, and giving your money to something more intrinsically useful, so good on you.

Quote from: Rafael on December 14, 2021, 03:37:51 AM
Two thoughts:

1. Let's not pretend Ernie and his gang aren't the grift that keeps on grifting. Between TSR's 2021 summer special and this recent stunt, they started "DaveCon": Because what the world always needed was Ernie and Tim Kask holding a Dave Arneson memorial event. ...Without any communication with or consent from anyone in the Blackmoorsphere, no less. And of coooouuurse, it turned into a trainwreck as quickly as one would imagine. - Not putting a link up here, but basically it's the same trick with different venue: Get your name on some oldschool project, sit on it with the intention of preventing others from using it, ask for money because sitting makes your buttocks wet.

2. Regardless of what some possible legal loopholes might be, neither Ernie nor his cronies have any moral right to the trademarks or to the otherwise directly or indirectly related intellectual properties. There is no case to be made here on their behalf, whatsoever, and the current lawsuit or non-lawsuit doesn't change anything about that. Nobody has ever actively tried to hinder Ernie or his associates of doing anything by themselves, and on their own, and their evident lack of success is not the fault of anyone else but them, from the "Hobby Shop Dungeon" KS to the "Giant Lands", or whatever that one was called. Like, didn't they do "The Lost City of Gaxmoor" before, and wasn't it kind of alright? --- Like, regardless of recent events, there surely exists some parallel universe in which those guys are just sitting in their basements writing cool stuff. It's time they make that universe happen in our reality.

It seems like they would actually generate more good will and less suspicion if they actually...produced something we could all appreciate, agreed.

Sad but true at this point.

Not trying to beat a dead horse stereotypical wedding DJ when he's down, but Ernie and his crowd have the "Plumber's Wife" problem, as detailed by Bill Burr:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYxJUGjmuxE

Unless they can make a case for themselves based on something else than "having lived with the person", nobody's interested in hearing from them. So, they need to make that case, and urgently so, at this point.


EnWorld put together a history of TSR 3's business exploits:

https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-full-glorious-history-of-nutsr.684697/

What exactly have they created, for themselves or for the community, except for a couple of mildly embarassing headlines?