Quote from: jeff37923 on December 18, 2020, 04:08:33 AM
My problem with the Shadowrun setting is that Cyberpunk with all of its nifty tech is primarily a hard science fiction genre. An application of Cyberpunk aesthetics to fantasy strikes me as more Dark Sun than anything else. Where I find the Shadowrun setting an abomination isn't because I hate fantasy (I dig Night's Edge, but vampires are definitely fantasy horror), it is because dragons and magic and elves are not hard science fiction. Since magic is capable of far more than science, there is no reason to use science or technology anymore once magic exists. The appearance of magic in a technological setting would bring about the slow abandonment of technology for magic, because magic has no limitations. The appeal of hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) is that you are bound by the physical laws as we know them and were taught in school. The difference between hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) and fantasy is that the former is playing tennis with the net up and the latter is playing tennis with the net down.

Well I find that a very weird outlook. Because magic in Shadowrun explicitly can't do everything and the conflict of 'Science' vs 'Magic' is a really old trope in fiction at this point....Possibly one of the oldest tropes. Man vs Machine, Individual Vs Collective, Personal Vs Impersonal. In a sense I find Magic Vs Science slots right in there and CAN highten a cyberpunk story. However I find Shadowrun fumbles most of the execution.

Science fiction is FICTION by its very nature. Even something like the Expanse (even excluding the proto particles) runs on physics bypassing and machinery that modern physics says wouldn't work. What Im saying is that in fictitious literature, 'Science' and 'Magic' are both magic really.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 18, 2020, 09:19:36 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 18, 2020, 04:08:33 AM
My problem with the Shadowrun setting is that Cyberpunk with all of its nifty tech is primarily a hard science fiction genre. An application of Cyberpunk aesthetics to fantasy strikes me as more Dark Sun than anything else. Where I find the Shadowrun setting an abomination isn't because I hate fantasy (I dig Night's Edge, but vampires are definitely fantasy horror), it is because dragons and magic and elves are not hard science fiction. Since magic is capable of far more than science, there is no reason to use science or technology anymore once magic exists. The appearance of magic in a technological setting would bring about the slow abandonment of technology for magic, because magic has no limitations. The appeal of hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) is that you are bound by the physical laws as we know them and were taught in school. The difference between hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) and fantasy is that the former is playing tennis with the net up and the latter is playing tennis with the net down.

Well I find that a very weird outlook. Because magic in Shadowrun explicitly can't do everything and the conflict of 'Science' vs 'Magic' is a really old trope in fiction at this point....Possibly one of the oldest tropes. Man vs Machine, Individual Vs Collective, Personal Vs Impersonal. In a sense I find Magic Vs Science slots right in there and CAN highten a cyberpunk story. However I find Shadowrun fumbles most of the execution.

Science fiction is FICTION by its very nature. Even something like the Expanse (even excluding the proto particles) runs on physics bypassing and machinery that modern physics says wouldn't work. What Im saying is that in fictitious literature, 'Science' and 'Magic' are both magic really.

Well, I disagree. In fiction, science and magic are not both magic. If they were, then there would be no point in separating the two fiction genres. Just because something is fiction, doesn't mean that all of science and engineering must be thrown out the window (this goes back to my tennis game analogy of net up or net down).

And I'm going to blatantly steal a quote from the Magic Versus Science TV Tropes entry because it hits the nail on the head here.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicVersusScience

Quote from: TV TropesMagic is often seen as the realm of mysticism and a violation of scientific laws. Science is often seen as the realm of materialism and technology.

We used to get in to discussions on the Traveller* boards about maintaining a suspension of disbelief and trying not to snap the Players' disbelief suspenders so that the Player can stay immersed in the setting. If you dial the science in science fiction from soft (Godzilla movies) to hard (The Martian, Deep Impact), then you are lessening the tension on those disbelief suspenders and keeping the Players firmly within the setting and its emulation. Once you through magic into the mix, all bets are off because magic.

*Don't get me started on Traveller's bugaboos. An entire interstellar nation based around psionics? Nope.