Shadowrun, though I'm really only familiar with the first edition.  I'm not a big fan of "D&D comes to the real world," but once I got accustomed to that there was a lot to like.  There was depth and complexity and humor, and D&D murderhobos are actually a really good fit with soulless magacorps in need of independent contractors.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 02, 2020, 05:39:18 AM

Shadowrun's setting has had some real ups and downs. I really started losing my love for it in 3e, with the constant metaplot like the Renraku Arcology Shutdown (birth of not-Skynet) and the Year of the Comet (freaky shit all over). The 4e and 5e times just kept adding to this in ways that didn't really appeal to me.

One thing Shadowrun did was to take social issues and make them less real. For example, racism was everywhere in Shadowrun, but written in ways that made it feel cartoonish. Shadowrun racism felt as much like real world racism as Cobra (from GIJoe) felt like a real world terrorist organization.

I too like Torg, but mainly the newer Torg Eternity version. Cyberpapacy has lots of cyberpunk elements, but with the social setup of the middle ages. You don't just take a stand against the corps, you're a heretic opposing the One True God (in the machine--the matrix here contains both heaven and hell) and his rightful servants. Pan-Pacifica (the replacement for Nippon Tech) is cyberpunk in attitude (Electric Samurai are totally cyberpunk) in a Resident Evil setting that lacks cyberware (but has biotech). And, lastly, there is Tharkold with it's occultech (demon-crafted implants) and a post-apocalyptic slant similar to Terminator's dark future or the physical world of the Matrix (outside of the computer simulated Matrix). Lots of different options in Torg Eternity for a variety of cyberpunk flavors.

1: 3e seems to be a point of contention for many.

2: I can unfortunately tell you flat out from personal experience that SRs racism is not cartoony at all when you are on the receiving end. And it was not new in my time by far.

3: All the marketing and the designers bad behavior for nuTorg put me off it right off the bat, then the changes made to the setting made it an instant no-sell. But yeah the Cyberpapacy is a really interesting twist on a CP setting. But then most of original Torgs cosms were.

While not technically an RPG. Another interesting take on a cyberpunk setting was Marvel's 2099 line way back in 92. In an odd way it feels like Shadowrun done right. It explored alot of different themes and technologies and their abuses and uses. Designer drugs that make you permanently addicted/dependent on them. Law enforcement inder corp control. Pretty much everything under some form of corp control. techno-horror and techno crimes possible with access to various technologies, biologies, and mutations and much more.

The setting could be recreated with TSR's MSH superhero system as it is robust enough to cover that easily.

Quote from: Omega on December 03, 2020, 08:50:31 AM
3: All the marketing and the designers bad behavior for nuTorg put me off it right off the bat, then the changes made to the setting made it an instant no-sell. But yeah the Cyberpapacy is a really interesting twist on a CP setting. But then most of original Torgs cosms were.

I can understand not liking the setting changes as it's really a personal preference thing.

However, what was it about the marketing that put you off, and what "bad behavior" are you referring to? I only got into Torg Eternity after a friend pledged in enough that he sent me a spare hard copy of the core rules, so I missed the prerelease build-up.

They were badmouthing the original setting. Which for me is an immediate turn off and disincentive to have anything to with with such a company.

If you have to piss on someone elses work to prop up your own then your product is dirt, and less than dirt if you are pissing on someone elses work you acquired.

Quote from: Omega on December 03, 2020, 11:53:39 AM
They were badmouthing the original setting. Which for me is an immediate turn off and disincentive to have anything to with with such a company.

If you have to piss on someone elses work to prop up your own then your product is dirt, and less than dirt if you are pissing on someone elses work you acquired.

I missed that, but it probably wouldn't have registered with me as I more or less ignored the original Torg back in the 90s. For whatever reason, it never clicked with me then, but a lot of games from then didn't appeal to me, but I find myself liking newer incarnations of them. This includes Torg Eternity and Savage Rifts. In the case of both, it's the mechanical improvements (in my opinion) that make them better than the originals.

Quote from: Batjon on December 02, 2020, 03:50:53 AM
Which setting is your favorite between Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2013/2020/RED? What is your reasoning for your choice?

I prefer Shadowrun.

Not that CP is a bad setting, but I think there are better pure cyberpunk settings out there (Interface Zero, for Savage Worlds, for instance).

Also, I really like the idea of blending cyberpunk and urban fantasy. However, despite playing 4E/Anniversary, my own setting is very different from published canon.

Quote from: Greywolf76 on December 03, 2020, 01:27:33 PM

Quote from: Batjon on December 02, 2020, 03:50:53 AM
Which setting is your favorite between Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2013/2020/RED? What is your reasoning for your choice?

I prefer Shadowrun.

Not that CP is a bad setting, but I think there are better pure cyberpunk settings out there (Interface Zero, for Savage Worlds, for instance).

Also, I really like the idea of blending cyberpunk and urban fantasy. However, despite playing 4E/Anniversary, my own setting is very different from published canon.

Interface Zero has psionics and genetic human/animal chimera hybrids that take it outside my definition of pure cyberpunk.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 03, 2020, 12:23:06 PM

Quote from: Omega on December 03, 2020, 11:53:39 AM
They were badmouthing the original setting. Which for me is an immediate turn off and disincentive to have anything to with with such a company.

If you have to piss on someone elses work to prop up your own then your product is dirt, and less than dirt if you are pissing on someone elses work you acquired.

I missed that, but it probably wouldn't have registered with me as I more or less ignored the original Torg back in the 90s. For whatever reason, it never clicked with me then, but a lot of games from then didn't appeal to me, but I find myself liking newer incarnations of them. This includes Torg Eternity and Savage Rifts. In the case of both, it's the mechanical improvements (in my opinion) that make them better than the originals.

Torg's settings are all very YMMV. Either the quirky twists appeal. Or they do not. Or more likely one of the settings appeals and the rest do not. I knew a few players at conventions who played Torg near exclusively in Nile Empire, or oddly enough, Cyberpapacy. With a few gravitating to Orrorsh or Tharkold, and believe someone was running a campaign set purely in the Living Land. There were also some combos like Living land+Nile Empire as they mesh nicely. Or Cyberpapacy+Asyle.

Just a couple of thoughts:

*)  Shadowrun is one of those settings that people are either cool with or hate with a passion.  Personally, I don't find it to be an inherently bad idea, but I also enjoyed the original trilogy of novels.  Setting drift (or "RPG supplements as fiction you have to keep up with") did get rather disappointing.  Cyberpunk's setting is sparse in comparison, but I found Cybergeneration mildly interesting.  The main arguing point I'd give Shadowrun over Cyberpunk is "anything Cyberpunk can do, I can do in Shadowrun, but the reverse isn't true."  Except... I'm not sure that's true either (that Shadowrun can do everything Cyberpunk does).  Shadowrun -can- do pretty much any broadly generic cyberpunk story though, just not certain specifics (no mass-duplication of your avatar ala Rache Bartmoss for example, without GM fiat that is).
*)  CyberSpace and CyberHERO.  -Basically- the same game/setting, but different systems.  My main attraction is with CyberHERO, I -can- literally do any Cyberpunk (or Cybergeneration) story.  Couple it with FantasyHERO and you've got Shadowrun covered too.  It's HERO, so the system can be cumbersome and slow at times, but it's a solid workhorse (I just don't run it for Supers, oddly enough). 
*)  nuTorg.  Mechanically superior to original Torg (provided you appreciate it's more "Savage Worlds-One System Fits All" approach), it does seem to fix a lot of stuff... and then screw up other stuff.   For example: it gives you stats on the goddess Lanala and talks about plans for a religious upheaval in the Living Land's cosmology, but never actually talks about the faith of the invading alien edeinos.  It just talks -around- it.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 12:59:40 PM
*)  nuTorg.  Mechanically superior to original Torg (provided you appreciate it's more "Savage Worlds-One System Fits All" approach), it does seem to fix a lot of stuff... and then screw up other stuff.   For example: it gives you stats on the goddess Lanala and talks about plans for a religious upheaval in the Living Land's cosmology, but never actually talks about the faith of the invading alien edeinos.  It just talks -around- it.

Well, it's Torg. If you came from a Social 7/Spirit 24 axiom Cosm, you wouldn't need to have it explained; it would just be obvious. But, since Core Earthers are from a Social 23/Spirit 10 Cosm, they demand an explanation for God...

In terms of setting - isn't it mostly a matter of whether you want peanut butter (fantasy) in your chocolate (cyberpunk). Some people like the Reese's Cup that is Shadowrun, while others prefer to keep their Cyberpunk separate.

In both cases I think that their settings are cool, but that their mechanics are generally a hot mess. Cyberpunk & early Shadowrun in the overly complex late 80s and early 90s style, and recent Shadowrun trying & failing to fix it without ever starting over properly, and the most recent edition trying to messily plug in a central meta mechanic without actually redesigning the rest of the system properly to match.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 07, 2020, 01:31:24 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 12:59:40 PM
*)  nuTorg.  Mechanically superior to original Torg (provided you appreciate it's more "Savage Worlds-One System Fits All" approach), it does seem to fix a lot of stuff... and then screw up other stuff.   For example: it gives you stats on the goddess Lanala and talks about plans for a religious upheaval in the Living Land's cosmology, but never actually talks about the faith of the invading alien edeinos.  It just talks -around- it.

Well, it's Torg. If you came from a Social 7/Spirit 24 axiom Cosm, you wouldn't need to have it explained; it would just be obvious. But, since Core Earthers are from a Social 23/Spirit 10 Cosm, they demand an explanation for God...

Heh.

But seriously, 1ed Torg had an interview with an edeinos where he tried to explain his faith.  And it explored how the edeinos were... sensorists?  I don't know the word, but they saw -all- sensory input as a form of worship.  Pleasure, pain, just looking at stuff.  They had miracles based around this concept, and it really helped stress how they didn't work as just another form of cleric casting spells.  And it extended through the Living Land, with Kaah engaged in various heresies involving "dead things" and luring some edeinos to suicide as Kamikaze warriors (I forget the name, but they were given firey powers that burned them to death eventually).

I haven't found that stuff in nuTorg.

Something I'm seeing more and more with these "updated" editions of 20+ year old games is that you really need the original editions to make the new material work to the fullest.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 01:52:52 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 07, 2020, 01:31:24 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 12:59:40 PM
*)  nuTorg.  Mechanically superior to original Torg (provided you appreciate it's more "Savage Worlds-One System Fits All" approach), it does seem to fix a lot of stuff... and then screw up other stuff.   For example: it gives you stats on the goddess Lanala and talks about plans for a religious upheaval in the Living Land's cosmology, but never actually talks about the faith of the invading alien edeinos.  It just talks -around- it.

Well, it's Torg. If you came from a Social 7/Spirit 24 axiom Cosm, you wouldn't need to have it explained; it would just be obvious. But, since Core Earthers are from a Social 23/Spirit 10 Cosm, they demand an explanation for God...

Heh.

But seriously, 1ed Torg had an interview with an edeinos where he tried to explain his faith.  And it explored how the edeinos were... sensorists?  I don't know the word, but they saw -all- sensory input as a form of worship.  Pleasure, pain, just looking at stuff.  They had miracles based around this concept, and it really helped stress how they didn't work as just another form of cleric casting spells.  And it extended through the Living Land, with Kaah engaged in various heresies involving "dead things" and luring some edeinos to suicide as Kamikaze warriors (I forget the name, but they were given firey powers that burned them to death eventually).

I haven't found that stuff in nuTorg.

Something I'm seeing more and more with these "updated" editions of 20+ year old games is that you really need the original editions to make the new material work to the fullest.

I can say with certainty that, had I not read over the (original) Torg book on them, Torg Eternity didn't give enough to have much understanding of Ravagons at all.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 07, 2020, 02:09:27 PM
I can say with certainty that, had I not read over the (original) Torg book on them, Torg Eternity didn't give enough to have much understanding of Ravagons at all.

Yeah, for all the "uh oh, scary Ravagons" we're supposed to buy into, neither edition has done a good job selling them from the start.

1ed had that book, but by the time it got released my party was going after High Lords, and buff Ravagons were barely speed bumps on the High Lords' good days.