Which setting is your favorite between Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2013/2020/RED? What is your reasoning for your choice?
CP2020 has a setting? :o
ahem.
I liked Shadowruns original setting, but it seemed to lose track with each successive edition.
CP2020's setting I have actually never seen. All I have seen was the weird theme park kingdoms version for Im not sure what version.
But I really like the Nights Edge setting for CP2020. A techno-horror/Supernatural setting for CP2020.
SR has the richer setting though. But it is totally YMMV and some like it, some hate it and some jettison the magic part and play it as a straight-up cyberpunk setting.
CP2020 feels more like D&D in that its a "make of it what you will" system and has a rather generic setting as its foundation.
Nights Edge takes things in all sorts of directions and plays with various techno-horror themes in particular. Sometimes with a bit of added supernatural to the mix.
Then theres one most overlook. The Cyberpapacy of the Torg RPG. And the Nippon Tech setting as well. The Cyberpapacy one in particular is an interesting mix of religion and cyberpunk combined.
Another obscure one worth a glance is Chromosome for the Amazing Engine system. A biopunk setting overall. Needed a little more fleshing out. Bu theres enough there to build off of.
Quote from: Omega on December 02, 2020, 05:01:04 AM
CP2020 has a setting? :o
ahem.
I liked Shadowruns original setting, but it seemed to lose track with each successive edition.
CP2020's setting I have actually never seen. All I have seen was the weird theme park kingdoms version for Im not sure what version.
But I really like the Nights Edge setting for CP2020. A techno-horror/Supernatural setting for CP2020.
SR has the richer setting though. But it is totally YMMV and some like it, some hate it and some jettison the magic part and play it as a straight-up cyberpunk setting.
CP2020 feels more like D&D in that its a "make of it what you will" system and has a rather generic setting as its foundation.
Nights Edge takes things in all sorts of directions and plays with various techno-horror themes in particular. Sometimes with a bit of added supernatural to the mix.
Then theres one most overlook. The Cyberpapacy of the Torg RPG. And the Nippon Tech setting as well. The Cyberpapacy one in particular is an interesting mix of religion and cyberpunk combined.
Another obscure one worth a glance is Chromosome for the Amazing Engine system. A biopunk setting overall. Needed a little more fleshing out. Bu theres enough there to build off of.
Shadowrun's setting has had some real ups and downs. I really started losing my love for it in 3e, with the constant metaplot like the Renraku Arcology Shutdown (birth of not-Skynet) and the Year of the Comet (freaky shit all over). The 4e and 5e times just kept adding to this in ways that didn't really appeal to me.
One thing Shadowrun did was to take social issues and make them less real. For example, racism was everywhere in Shadowrun, but written in ways that made it feel cartoonish. Shadowrun racism felt as much like real world racism as Cobra (from GIJoe) felt like a real world terrorist organization.
OTOH, much of Cyberpunk 2020 (and now Red) feels like a grittier setting which can have a more nuanced approach to real world issues if you want it to, and it is my preferred medium for dark & dingy (but with chrome) stories. Please note that this does not apply to Cybergeneration or Cyberpunk 3 (Dollpunk) where the setting itself went very...strange.
I too like Torg, but mainly the newer Torg Eternity version. Cyberpapacy has lots of cyberpunk elements, but with the social setup of the middle ages. You don't just take a stand against the corps, you're a heretic opposing the One True God (in the machine--the matrix here contains both heaven and hell) and his rightful servants. Pan-Pacifica (the replacement for Nippon Tech) is cyberpunk in attitude (Electric Samurai are totally cyberpunk) in a Resident Evil setting that lacks cyberware (but has biotech). And, lastly, there is Tharkold with it's occultech (demon-crafted implants) and a post-apocalyptic slant similar to Terminator's dark future or the physical world of the Matrix (outside of the computer simulated Matrix). Lots of different options in Torg Eternity for a variety of cyberpunk flavors.
Shadowrun. Once it left FASA and went to Fanpro during it's 3rd edition it started to go off the rails but it was stuff that could still fit with the existing cannon to that point. 4th ed and on it lost me.
As someone who has played both Cyberpunk 2020 and Shadowrun extensively, I'm going to have to go with Cyberpunk.
Shadowrun is a fun setting with lots of crazy things that can happen, but it has a way of taking real issues and making them feel less real as has been noted. Not to mention that the game has not aged well. The 2012 thing meant that, as a setting, Shadowrun already had a built in expiration date.
Cyberpunk has always felt grounded and more real. I really appreciate an RPG setting that doesn't feel like it's obligated to crowbar in magic or equivalent magic powers such as the ever popular Psionics.
Friday Night Firefight is a far, far better ruleset than any edition of Shadowrun IMHO. R Talsorian games are always fun to play. They aren't balanced by any means, but Interlock is always a blast. Shadowrun's rules I didn't like quite as much. They were really clunky and full of contradictions. The system pretends to be open-ended for character creation, but specialization is so rewarded and generalization so heavily punished that it might as well have a class system.
One of the major issues CP2020 suffered from was that their sourcebooks were nowhere near as entertaining as SR's. FASA, and even later FanPro and Catalyst books kept eating their lunch from a fluff standpoint.
The whole style of 'postings on a BBS/forum' was surprisingly immersive for an RPG sourcebook. I'm still astonished Pondsmith and company didn't do it themselves. Surely people in the Cyberpunk universe have opinions about Arasaka, kibble, or their favorite pistol.
Shadowrun has also suffered from a split take where some people want the gonzo "pink mohawk" style while others want the more serious "black ops pros" feel. In Shadowrun, these two don't blend very well, whereas CP always went with something in between (you had to have style AND substance, if you went too into style > substance, you just died looking good).
Mechanically, CP net running was, while not great, at least faster than the SR Matrix. Of course, in practice many considered deckers/hackers to be NPC only. I saw this in both games, but the feeling was far stronger in SR.
CP bad guys tended to know how to use their toys, but the lack of magic kept the arms race to a more narrow range. Conversely, SR bad guys had to regularly forget some of the things that their magic and tech should bring to their fingertips. Hell, by SR5e, runners were encouraged to make covert intrusions into secure sites while maintaining active wifi networks that were hooked into all their gear.
Quote from: Omega on December 02, 2020, 05:01:04 AM
CP2020 has a setting? :o
Yes.
It's called Real Life, and we're living on it. ;)
My preferred setting is Shadowrun.
Because it's fictional. :P
I find Shadowrun so bad that I would not insult my ass by using it for toilet paper. The "High Tech Low Life" theme of the cyberpunk genre gets parasitized by the Gross Conceptual Error of adding elements of fantasy to it. Orcs, elves, shamans, and hackers - it takes a delicious wine and turns it rancid and vinegary.
The setting and metaplot for Cyberpunk 2013/2020 and Cybergeneration gives just enough of a skeleton for Players to get immersed without having their characters become mooks for the major NPCs running around. It was pretty open ended and I found I could do a lot with it that my groups enjoyed. Omega already mentioned Night's Edge, which added a wonderful aspect of supernatural horror to games at a time when VtM was taking over game groups and turning them in to LARPs.
From a background/mythology standpoint, I found Shadowrun to be far more interesting. And as a young GM in the early 90's I played and enjoyed both. However, the Man meets magic and machine concept had a far broader appeal.
However, the rules for CP 2020 were elegant (save netrunning of course). Rolling a D10 plus stat+skill is far more intuitive than rolling 20D6 to hit. (exaggeration, but not by much) the background for 2020 OTOH just felt clunky to me, and already a bit dated.
I recently got my copy of CP Red, so that may change my opinion once I grok the new history.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 02, 2020, 08:21:53 AM
One of the major issues CP2020 suffered from was that their sourcebooks were nowhere near as entertaining as SR's. FASA, and even later FanPro and Catalyst books kept eating their lunch from a fluff standpoint.
The whole style of 'postings on a BBS/forum' was surprisingly immersive for an RPG sourcebook. I'm still astonished Pondsmith and company didn't do it themselves. Surely people in the Cyberpunk universe have opinions about Arasaka, kibble, or their favorite pistol.
This was a big selling factor for my group when the games came out. I presented both as options, and a quick flip through both books sold my group on Shadowrun 1e. as a reader, and BBS user at the time, I ESPECIALLY loved the forum posts, and arguments. It felt grounded, and added so much to the flavor of the game.
Quote from: Batjon on December 02, 2020, 03:50:53 AM
Which setting is your favorite between Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2013/2020/RED? What is your reasoning for your choice?
Cyberpunk's setting always felt tacked on. Which is good if you're using the system to do your own setting. Not so much if you're looking for the game to do the heavy lifting for setting.
Shadowrun's setting is the opposite. Great if you're looking for lots of lore hooks, but you're stuck with the meta story, or you have to twist it to fit your campaign, which defeats the purpose of having a shared setting where you can theoretically jump into a new group and know what's going on, lore wise.
What bothers me about Cyberpunk's setting is that I think it's on the horns of a dilemma. So much of the setting is based on 80's asthetics, and either you play it "future retro" or you try to make it something else, like Cybergeneration, where it leaves Cyberpunk behind for some kind of post-cyberpunk.
I guess I'd go with Shadowrun if I had to pick which is my favorite, but it's not a clean decision.
Cyberpunk, because it had rules to let you plug Mekton into it (powered armor, drones, automated cybertanks... you don't even NEED to build giant robots).
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 02, 2020, 10:05:34 AM
Cyberpunk, because it had rules to let you plug Mekton into it (powered armor, drones, automated cybertanks... you don't even NEED to build giant robots).
This. Oh, so much this.
Cyberpunk, although it was already becoming laughably dated by the early 1990s and not even in a wholesome alt-history way.
I had Shadowrun but I found it to be very very "meh".
Shadowrun, though I'm really only familiar with the first edition. I'm not a big fan of "D&D comes to the real world," but once I got accustomed to that there was a lot to like. There was depth and complexity and humor, and D&D murderhobos are actually a really good fit with soulless magacorps in need of independent contractors.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 02, 2020, 05:39:18 AM
Shadowrun's setting has had some real ups and downs. I really started losing my love for it in 3e, with the constant metaplot like the Renraku Arcology Shutdown (birth of not-Skynet) and the Year of the Comet (freaky shit all over). The 4e and 5e times just kept adding to this in ways that didn't really appeal to me.
One thing Shadowrun did was to take social issues and make them less real. For example, racism was everywhere in Shadowrun, but written in ways that made it feel cartoonish. Shadowrun racism felt as much like real world racism as Cobra (from GIJoe) felt like a real world terrorist organization.
I too like Torg, but mainly the newer Torg Eternity version. Cyberpapacy has lots of cyberpunk elements, but with the social setup of the middle ages. You don't just take a stand against the corps, you're a heretic opposing the One True God (in the machine--the matrix here contains both heaven and hell) and his rightful servants. Pan-Pacifica (the replacement for Nippon Tech) is cyberpunk in attitude (Electric Samurai are totally cyberpunk) in a Resident Evil setting that lacks cyberware (but has biotech). And, lastly, there is Tharkold with it's occultech (demon-crafted implants) and a post-apocalyptic slant similar to Terminator's dark future or the physical world of the Matrix (outside of the computer simulated Matrix). Lots of different options in Torg Eternity for a variety of cyberpunk flavors.
1: 3e seems to be a point of contention for many.
2: I can unfortunately tell you flat out from personal experience that SRs racism is not cartoony at all when you are on the receiving end. And it was not new in my time by far.
3: All the marketing and the designers bad behavior for nuTorg put me off it right off the bat, then the changes made to the setting made it an instant no-sell. But yeah the Cyberpapacy is a really interesting twist on a CP setting. But then most of original Torgs cosms were.
While not technically an RPG. Another interesting take on a cyberpunk setting was Marvel's 2099 line way back in 92. In an odd way it feels like Shadowrun done right. It explored alot of different themes and technologies and their abuses and uses. Designer drugs that make you permanently addicted/dependent on them. Law enforcement inder corp control. Pretty much everything under some form of corp control. techno-horror and techno crimes possible with access to various technologies, biologies, and mutations and much more.
The setting could be recreated with TSR's MSH superhero system as it is robust enough to cover that easily.
Quote from: Omega on December 03, 2020, 08:50:31 AM
3: All the marketing and the designers bad behavior for nuTorg put me off it right off the bat, then the changes made to the setting made it an instant no-sell. But yeah the Cyberpapacy is a really interesting twist on a CP setting. But then most of original Torgs cosms were.
I can understand not liking the setting changes as it's really a personal preference thing.
However, what was it about the marketing that put you off, and what "bad behavior" are you referring to? I only got into Torg Eternity after a friend pledged in enough that he sent me a spare hard copy of the core rules, so I missed the prerelease build-up.
They were badmouthing the original setting. Which for me is an immediate turn off and disincentive to have anything to with with such a company.
If you have to piss on someone elses work to prop up your own then your product is dirt, and less than dirt if you are pissing on someone elses work you acquired.
Quote from: Omega on December 03, 2020, 11:53:39 AM
They were badmouthing the original setting. Which for me is an immediate turn off and disincentive to have anything to with with such a company.
If you have to piss on someone elses work to prop up your own then your product is dirt, and less than dirt if you are pissing on someone elses work you acquired.
I missed that, but it probably wouldn't have registered with me as I more or less ignored the original Torg back in the 90s. For whatever reason, it never clicked with me then, but a lot of games from then didn't appeal to me, but I find myself liking newer incarnations of them. This includes Torg Eternity and Savage Rifts. In the case of both, it's the mechanical improvements (in my opinion) that make them better than the originals.
Quote from: Batjon on December 02, 2020, 03:50:53 AM
Which setting is your favorite between Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2013/2020/RED? What is your reasoning for your choice?
I prefer Shadowrun.
Not that CP is a bad setting, but I think there are better pure cyberpunk settings out there (Interface Zero, for Savage Worlds, for instance).
Also, I really like the idea of blending cyberpunk and urban fantasy. However, despite playing 4E/Anniversary, my own setting is very different from published canon.
Quote from: Greywolf76 on December 03, 2020, 01:27:33 PM
Quote from: Batjon on December 02, 2020, 03:50:53 AM
Which setting is your favorite between Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2013/2020/RED? What is your reasoning for your choice?
I prefer Shadowrun.
Not that CP is a bad setting, but I think there are better pure cyberpunk settings out there (Interface Zero, for Savage Worlds, for instance).
Also, I really like the idea of blending cyberpunk and urban fantasy. However, despite playing 4E/Anniversary, my own setting is very different from published canon.
Interface Zero has psionics and genetic human/animal chimera hybrids that take it outside my definition of pure cyberpunk.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 03, 2020, 12:23:06 PM
Quote from: Omega on December 03, 2020, 11:53:39 AM
They were badmouthing the original setting. Which for me is an immediate turn off and disincentive to have anything to with with such a company.
If you have to piss on someone elses work to prop up your own then your product is dirt, and less than dirt if you are pissing on someone elses work you acquired.
I missed that, but it probably wouldn't have registered with me as I more or less ignored the original Torg back in the 90s. For whatever reason, it never clicked with me then, but a lot of games from then didn't appeal to me, but I find myself liking newer incarnations of them. This includes Torg Eternity and Savage Rifts. In the case of both, it's the mechanical improvements (in my opinion) that make them better than the originals.
Torg's settings are all very YMMV. Either the quirky twists appeal. Or they do not. Or more likely one of the settings appeals and the rest do not. I knew a few players at conventions who played Torg near exclusively in Nile Empire, or oddly enough, Cyberpapacy. With a few gravitating to Orrorsh or Tharkold, and believe someone was running a campaign set purely in the Living Land. There were also some combos like Living land+Nile Empire as they mesh nicely. Or Cyberpapacy+Asyle.
Just a couple of thoughts:
*) Shadowrun is one of those settings that people are either cool with or hate with a passion. Personally, I don't find it to be an inherently bad idea, but I also enjoyed the original trilogy of novels. Setting drift (or "RPG supplements as fiction you have to keep up with") did get rather disappointing. Cyberpunk's setting is sparse in comparison, but I found Cybergeneration mildly interesting. The main arguing point I'd give Shadowrun over Cyberpunk is "anything Cyberpunk can do, I can do in Shadowrun, but the reverse isn't true." Except... I'm not sure that's true either (that Shadowrun can do everything Cyberpunk does). Shadowrun -can- do pretty much any broadly generic cyberpunk story though, just not certain specifics (no mass-duplication of your avatar ala Rache Bartmoss for example, without GM fiat that is).
*) CyberSpace and CyberHERO. -Basically- the same game/setting, but different systems. My main attraction is with CyberHERO, I -can- literally do any Cyberpunk (or Cybergeneration) story. Couple it with FantasyHERO and you've got Shadowrun covered too. It's HERO, so the system can be cumbersome and slow at times, but it's a solid workhorse (I just don't run it for Supers, oddly enough).
*) nuTorg. Mechanically superior to original Torg (provided you appreciate it's more "Savage Worlds-One System Fits All" approach), it does seem to fix a lot of stuff... and then screw up other stuff. For example: it gives you stats on the goddess Lanala and talks about plans for a religious upheaval in the Living Land's cosmology, but never actually talks about the faith of the invading alien edeinos. It just talks -around- it.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 12:59:40 PM
*) nuTorg. Mechanically superior to original Torg (provided you appreciate it's more "Savage Worlds-One System Fits All" approach), it does seem to fix a lot of stuff... and then screw up other stuff. For example: it gives you stats on the goddess Lanala and talks about plans for a religious upheaval in the Living Land's cosmology, but never actually talks about the faith of the invading alien edeinos. It just talks -around- it.
Well, it's Torg. If you came from a Social 7/Spirit 24 axiom Cosm, you wouldn't need to have it explained; it would just be obvious. But, since Core Earthers are from a Social 23/Spirit 10 Cosm, they demand an explanation for God...
In terms of setting - isn't it mostly a matter of whether you want peanut butter (fantasy) in your chocolate (cyberpunk). Some people like the Reese's Cup that is Shadowrun, while others prefer to keep their Cyberpunk separate.
In both cases I think that their settings are cool, but that their mechanics are generally a hot mess. Cyberpunk & early Shadowrun in the overly complex late 80s and early 90s style, and recent Shadowrun trying & failing to fix it without ever starting over properly, and the most recent edition trying to messily plug in a central meta mechanic without actually redesigning the rest of the system properly to match.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 07, 2020, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 12:59:40 PM
*) nuTorg. Mechanically superior to original Torg (provided you appreciate it's more "Savage Worlds-One System Fits All" approach), it does seem to fix a lot of stuff... and then screw up other stuff. For example: it gives you stats on the goddess Lanala and talks about plans for a religious upheaval in the Living Land's cosmology, but never actually talks about the faith of the invading alien edeinos. It just talks -around- it.
Well, it's Torg. If you came from a Social 7/Spirit 24 axiom Cosm, you wouldn't need to have it explained; it would just be obvious. But, since Core Earthers are from a Social 23/Spirit 10 Cosm, they demand an explanation for God...
Heh.
But seriously, 1ed Torg had an interview with an edeinos where he tried to explain his faith. And it explored how the edeinos were... sensorists? I don't know the word, but they saw -all- sensory input as a form of worship. Pleasure, pain, just looking at stuff. They had miracles based around this concept, and it really helped stress how they didn't work as just another form of cleric casting spells. And it extended through the Living Land, with Kaah engaged in various heresies involving "dead things" and luring some edeinos to suicide as Kamikaze warriors (I forget the name, but they were given firey powers that burned them to death eventually).
I haven't found that stuff in nuTorg.
Something I'm seeing more and more with these "updated" editions of 20+ year old games is that you really need the original editions to make the new material work to the fullest.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 01:52:52 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 07, 2020, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 12:59:40 PM
*) nuTorg. Mechanically superior to original Torg (provided you appreciate it's more "Savage Worlds-One System Fits All" approach), it does seem to fix a lot of stuff... and then screw up other stuff. For example: it gives you stats on the goddess Lanala and talks about plans for a religious upheaval in the Living Land's cosmology, but never actually talks about the faith of the invading alien edeinos. It just talks -around- it.
Well, it's Torg. If you came from a Social 7/Spirit 24 axiom Cosm, you wouldn't need to have it explained; it would just be obvious. But, since Core Earthers are from a Social 23/Spirit 10 Cosm, they demand an explanation for God...
Heh.
But seriously, 1ed Torg had an interview with an edeinos where he tried to explain his faith. And it explored how the edeinos were... sensorists? I don't know the word, but they saw -all- sensory input as a form of worship. Pleasure, pain, just looking at stuff. They had miracles based around this concept, and it really helped stress how they didn't work as just another form of cleric casting spells. And it extended through the Living Land, with Kaah engaged in various heresies involving "dead things" and luring some edeinos to suicide as Kamikaze warriors (I forget the name, but they were given firey powers that burned them to death eventually).
I haven't found that stuff in nuTorg.
Something I'm seeing more and more with these "updated" editions of 20+ year old games is that you really need the original editions to make the new material work to the fullest.
I can say with certainty that, had I not read over the (original) Torg book on them, Torg Eternity didn't give enough to have much understanding of Ravagons at all.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 07, 2020, 02:09:27 PM
I can say with certainty that, had I not read over the (original) Torg book on them, Torg Eternity didn't give enough to have much understanding of Ravagons at all.
Yeah, for all the "uh oh, scary Ravagons" we're supposed to buy into, neither edition has done a good job selling them from the start.
1ed had that book, but by the time it got released my party was going after High Lords, and buff Ravagons were barely speed bumps on the High Lords' good days.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on December 07, 2020, 01:49:15 PM
In terms of setting - isn't it mostly a matter of whether you want peanut butter (fantasy) in your chocolate (cyberpunk). Some people like the Reese's Cup that is Shadowrun, while others prefer to keep their Cyberpunk separate.
Pretty much.
Personally, I've never understood the folks who can't get into Shadowrun because of it's one sentence sell ("dragons and magic and elves alongside cyberpunk"). If they hate fantasy tropes and themes in general, that'd be one thing, but I always have the impression there's something else. I enjoy Shadowrun's basic premise (if not execution), so it's hard for me to see things the way others gamers do I guess. Like it's -too- imaginative or something.
I wonder if these are the same folks who prefer Star Trek (very much a hard sci-fi setting) to Star Wars ("you want magic swords and ghosts and little green wizards in your setting with robots and spaceships and clones with blasters? No prob.")
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on December 07, 2020, 01:49:15 PMIn both cases I think that their settings are cool, but that their mechanics are generally a hot mess. Cyberpunk & early Shadowrun in the overly complex late 80s and early 90s style, and recent Shadowrun trying & failing to fix it without ever starting over properly, and the most recent edition trying to messily plug in a central meta mechanic without actually redesigning the rest of the system properly to match.
I think both (any) cyberpunk system needs a good effects-based mechanic to let players (and GMs) design their own cyberware, programs, gear, drones, vehicles, etc. etc. Something to emphasize evolving technology, defective knock offs of existing gear, and so on. Shadowrun doubly so, as it has all those spells, Aspect powers, spirits, critters, and so on.
But I know the market rewards exception-based design (i.e. "buy this book if you want new stuff that we double-pinky swear is well playtested and balanced") and my desire for effects-based systems is not universal.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM
I wonder if these are the same folks who prefer Star Trek (very much a hard sci-fi setting) to Star Wars ("you want magic swords and ghosts and little green wizards in your setting with robots and spaceships and clones with blasters? No prob.")
Star Trek is full-blooded sci-fi, but "hard" it most certainly is not. There are too many bullshit miracle devices, space gods, and wonky psychic abilities for that.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM
I wonder if these are the same folks who prefer Star Trek (very much a hard sci-fi setting) to Star Wars ("you want magic swords and ghosts and little green wizards in your setting with robots and spaceships and clones with blasters? No prob.")
I like both Trek & Wars, but it makes me laugh when people call Star Trek hard sci-fi. It's not full-on future fantasy like Star Wars, but it's still far from the "hard sci-fi" side of the spectrum. (I consider it a spectrum rather than an either/or - running from Star Wars on one end to The Martian on the other.)
But yeah, Shadowrun is nearly to the Star Wars side of the spectrum, while (and I'm no expert on the lore) Cyberpunk seems to be about halfway between The Martian and Star Trek - solidly on the hard side of the scale.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM
I think both (any) cyberpunk system needs a good effects-based mechanic to let players (and GMs) design their own cyberware, programs, gear, drones, vehicles, etc. etc. Something to emphasize evolving technology, defective knock offs of existing gear, and so on. Shadowrun doubly so, as it has all those spells, Aspect powers, spirits, critters, and so on.
But I know the market rewards exception-based design (i.e. "buy this book if you want new stuff that we double-pinky swear is well playtested and balanced") and my desire for effects-based systems is not universal.
I tend to lean more towards the latter option with minor customization on a prebuilt chassis, though I can certainly see the draw of the freeform customization, they nearly always throw any semblance of balance out the window (and/or there are only a couple competitive builds). And I like the the peanut butter of the tactics mini-game mixed into my roleplaying game.
Said customization is sort of another layer on the class vs point-buy choice. I really like pure point-buy systems in theory, but in practice they are nearly always too messy & unbalanced. Though I do like a good hybrid of the two (which is the direction I went in the TTRPG I'm working on - besides a signature ability the classes are largely aimed point-buy, with different pools and the class/background somewhat dictating costs).
>Star Trek
>hard sci-fi
Man, I like ST but I wouldn't call it 'hard' sci-fi.
Alright, alright, alright. I misspoke.
Sheesh. It's like I said "2+2=5" in here.
If I admit I was wrong, can we focus on the...
Aw hell, it's the internet. People will be jumping in on this years from now to chime in.
Might as well put it in your sig at this point :D
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 08, 2020, 03:21:26 PM
Alright, alright, alright. I misspoke.
Sheesh. It's like I said "2+2=5" in here.
If I admit I was wrong, can we focus on the...
Aw hell, it's the internet. People will be jumping in on this years from now to chime in.
In order to get this thread back on track we'll have to angle the deflector dish to create a tachyon pulse that will transmogrify the crystalline structure of the temporally disjointed phraseology you used.
Quote from: KingCheops on December 08, 2020, 08:59:55 PM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 08, 2020, 03:21:26 PM
Alright, alright, alright. I misspoke.
Sheesh. It's like I said "2+2=5" in here.
If I admit I was wrong, can we focus on the...
Aw hell, it's the internet. People will be jumping in on this years from now to chime in.
In order to get this thread back on track we'll have to angle the deflector dish to create a tachyon pulse that will transmogrify the crystalline structure of the temporally disjointed phraseology you used.
You win the internets.
Y'know. I do think the tone comparison is accurate.
If Shadowrun is like Star Wars, it has a mystical side. (Can't help it with the fantasy tropes) There's a fairy tale morality lurking underneath the mirror shades and smartguns.
If Cyberpunk is like Star Trek, it solves it's problems with the application of technology and competence in it.
Quote from: KingCheops on December 08, 2020, 08:59:55 PM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 08, 2020, 03:21:26 PM
Alright, alright, alright. I misspoke.
Sheesh. It's like I said "2+2=5" in here.
If I admit I was wrong, can we focus on the...
Aw hell, it's the internet. People will be jumping in on this years from now to chime in.
In order to get this thread back on track we'll have to angle the deflector dish to create a tachyon pulse that will transmogrify the crystalline structure of the temporally disjointed phraseology you used.
Like putting too much air into a balloon!
https://comb.io/KE7ATM (relevant Futurama clip - couldn't figure out how to post it here)
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM
Personally, I've never understood the folks who can't get into Shadowrun because of it's one sentence sell ("dragons and magic and elves alongside cyberpunk"). If they hate fantasy tropes and themes in general, that'd be one thing, but I always have the impression there's something else. I enjoy Shadowrun's basic premise (if not execution), so it's hard for me to see things the way others gamers do I guess. Like it's -too- imaginative or something.
For me, cyberpunk is serious and bleak, whilst fantasy is more light-hearted. Shadowrun's atmosphere is a bit too light and hopeful to scratch my cyberpunk itch. On the other hand, if I consider Shadowrun its own thing rather than a part of cyberpunk, it's got a lot going for it. I quite enjoy the fiction, both in the RPG and the novels. In particular, I found the book about the children raised entirely on the net very moving, especially the rescue at the end.
Quote from: Mishihari on December 17, 2020, 11:26:02 PM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM
Personally, I've never understood the folks who can't get into Shadowrun because of it's one sentence sell ("dragons and magic and elves alongside cyberpunk"). If they hate fantasy tropes and themes in general, that'd be one thing, but I always have the impression there's something else. I enjoy Shadowrun's basic premise (if not execution), so it's hard for me to see things the way others gamers do I guess. Like it's -too- imaginative or something.
For me, cyberpunk is serious and bleak, whilst fantasy is more light-hearted. Shadowrun's atmosphere is a bit too light and hopeful to scratch my cyberpunk itch. On the other hand, if I consider Shadowrun its own thing rather than a part of cyberpunk, it's got a lot going for it. I quite enjoy the fiction, both in the RPG and the novels. In particular, I found the book about the children raised entirely on the net very moving, especially the rescue at the end.
That one stuck with me. Great short story.
I always preferred SR (up until 3e started it's nonsense, just like apparently everyone else).
I did read the first three novels when the game was released, and always used them as a sort of representation of how the world was supposed to appear/function.
All of my SR stuff ended up playing out something like a Noir Detective story, except the theme music was Joy Division.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on December 07, 2020, 01:49:15 PM
In terms of setting - isn't it mostly a matter of whether you want peanut butter (fantasy) in your chocolate (cyberpunk). Some people like the Reese's Cup that is Shadowrun, while others prefer to keep their Cyberpunk separate.
Pretty much.
Personally, I've never understood the folks who can't get into Shadowrun because of it's one sentence sell ("dragons and magic and elves alongside cyberpunk"). If they hate fantasy tropes and themes in general, that'd be one thing, but I always have the impression there's something else. I enjoy Shadowrun's basic premise (if not execution), so it's hard for me to see things the way others gamers do I guess. Like it's -too- imaginative or something.
I wonder if these are the same folks who prefer Star Trek (very much a hard sci-fi setting) to Star Wars ("you want magic swords and ghosts and little green wizards in your setting with robots and spaceships and clones with blasters? No prob.")
First off, Star Trek is most definitely NOT a hard science fiction setting. It is just as science fantasy as Star Wars is. You want to talk hard science fiction, then you are talking about The Martian or The Expanse.
My problem with the Shadowrun setting is that Cyberpunk with all of its nifty tech is primarily a hard science fiction genre. An application of Cyberpunk aesthetics to fantasy strikes me as more Dark Sun than anything else. Where I find the Shadowrun setting an abomination isn't because I hate fantasy (I dig Night's Edge, but vampires are definitely fantasy horror), it is because dragons and magic and elves are not hard science fiction. Since magic is capable of far more than science, there is no reason to use science or technology anymore once magic exists. The appearance of magic in a technological setting would bring about the slow abandonment of technology for magic, because magic has no limitations. The appeal of hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) is that you are bound by the physical laws as we know them and were taught in school. The difference between hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) and fantasy is that the former is playing tennis with the net up and the latter is playing tennis with the net down.
EDIT: Fuck dude, everybody else already ganged up on you about Star Trek. Sorry for the pile on.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on December 07, 2020, 05:20:51 PMStar Trek is full-blooded sci-fi, but "hard" it most certainly is not. There are too many bullshit miracle devices, space gods, and wonky psychic abilities for that.
Id say Star Wars (before the Disney Empire) had a more consistent...world? Then Star Trek. In Star Trek what any piece of tech could do changed every minute. In Star Wars hyperspace was hyperspace.
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 18, 2020, 04:08:33 AM
My problem with the Shadowrun setting is that Cyberpunk with all of its nifty tech is primarily a hard science fiction genre. An application of Cyberpunk aesthetics to fantasy strikes me as more Dark Sun than anything else. Where I find the Shadowrun setting an abomination isn't because I hate fantasy (I dig Night's Edge, but vampires are definitely fantasy horror), it is because dragons and magic and elves are not hard science fiction. Since magic is capable of far more than science, there is no reason to use science or technology anymore once magic exists. The appearance of magic in a technological setting would bring about the slow abandonment of technology for magic, because magic has no limitations. The appeal of hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) is that you are bound by the physical laws as we know them and were taught in school. The difference between hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) and fantasy is that the former is playing tennis with the net up and the latter is playing tennis with the net down.
Well I find that a very weird outlook. Because magic in Shadowrun explicitly can't do everything and the conflict of 'Science' vs 'Magic' is a really old trope in fiction at this point....Possibly one of the oldest tropes. Man vs Machine, Individual Vs Collective, Personal Vs Impersonal. In a sense I find Magic Vs Science slots right in there and CAN highten a cyberpunk story. However I find Shadowrun fumbles most of the execution.
Science fiction is FICTION by its very nature. Even something like the Expanse (even excluding the proto particles) runs on physics bypassing and machinery that modern physics says wouldn't work. What Im saying is that in fictitious literature, 'Science' and 'Magic' are both magic really.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 18, 2020, 09:19:36 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 18, 2020, 04:08:33 AM
My problem with the Shadowrun setting is that Cyberpunk with all of its nifty tech is primarily a hard science fiction genre. An application of Cyberpunk aesthetics to fantasy strikes me as more Dark Sun than anything else. Where I find the Shadowrun setting an abomination isn't because I hate fantasy (I dig Night's Edge, but vampires are definitely fantasy horror), it is because dragons and magic and elves are not hard science fiction. Since magic is capable of far more than science, there is no reason to use science or technology anymore once magic exists. The appearance of magic in a technological setting would bring about the slow abandonment of technology for magic, because magic has no limitations. The appeal of hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) is that you are bound by the physical laws as we know them and were taught in school. The difference between hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) and fantasy is that the former is playing tennis with the net up and the latter is playing tennis with the net down.
Well I find that a very weird outlook. Because magic in Shadowrun explicitly can't do everything and the conflict of 'Science' vs 'Magic' is a really old trope in fiction at this point....Possibly one of the oldest tropes. Man vs Machine, Individual Vs Collective, Personal Vs Impersonal. In a sense I find Magic Vs Science slots right in there and CAN highten a cyberpunk story. However I find Shadowrun fumbles most of the execution.
Science fiction is FICTION by its very nature. Even something like the Expanse (even excluding the proto particles) runs on physics bypassing and machinery that modern physics says wouldn't work. What Im saying is that in fictitious literature, 'Science' and 'Magic' are both magic really.
Well, I disagree. In fiction, science and magic are not both magic. If they were, then there would be no point in separating the two fiction genres. Just because something is fiction, doesn't mean that all of science and engineering must be thrown out the window (this goes back to my tennis game analogy of net up or net down).
And I'm going to blatantly steal a quote from the Magic Versus Science TV Tropes entry because it hits the nail on the head here.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicVersusScience
Quote from: TV TropesMagic is often seen as the realm of mysticism and a violation of scientific laws. Science is often seen as the realm of materialism and technology.
We used to get in to discussions on the Traveller* boards about maintaining a suspension of disbelief and trying not to snap the Players' disbelief suspenders so that the Player can stay immersed in the setting. If you dial the science in science fiction from soft (Godzilla movies) to hard (The Martian, Deep Impact), then you are lessening the tension on those disbelief suspenders and keeping the Players firmly within the setting and its emulation. Once you through magic into the mix, all bets are off because magic.
*Don't get me started on Traveller's bugaboos. An entire interstellar nation based around psionics? Nope.