Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on December 07, 2020, 01:49:15 PM
In terms of setting - isn't it mostly a matter of whether you want peanut butter (fantasy) in your chocolate (cyberpunk). Some people like the Reese's Cup that is Shadowrun, while others prefer to keep their Cyberpunk separate.

Pretty much. 

Personally, I've never understood the folks who can't get into Shadowrun because of it's one sentence sell ("dragons and magic and elves alongside cyberpunk").  If they hate fantasy tropes and themes in general, that'd be one thing, but I always have the impression there's something else.  I enjoy Shadowrun's basic premise (if not execution), so it's hard for me to see things the way others gamers do I guess.  Like it's -too- imaginative or something.

I wonder if these are the same folks who prefer Star Trek (very much a hard sci-fi setting) to Star Wars ("you want magic swords and ghosts and little green wizards in your setting with robots and spaceships and clones with blasters?  No prob.")

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on December 07, 2020, 01:49:15 PMIn both cases I think that their settings are cool, but that their mechanics are generally a hot mess. Cyberpunk & early Shadowrun in the overly complex late 80s and early 90s style, and recent Shadowrun trying & failing to fix it without ever starting over properly, and the most recent edition trying to messily plug in a central meta mechanic without actually redesigning the rest of the system properly to match.

I think both (any) cyberpunk system needs a good effects-based mechanic to let players (and GMs) design their own cyberware, programs, gear, drones, vehicles, etc. etc.  Something to emphasize evolving technology, defective knock offs of existing gear, and so on.  Shadowrun doubly so, as it has all those spells, Aspect powers, spirits, critters, and so on.

But I know the market rewards exception-based design (i.e. "buy this book if you want new stuff that we double-pinky swear is well playtested and balanced") and my desire for effects-based systems is not universal.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM
I wonder if these are the same folks who prefer Star Trek (very much a hard sci-fi setting) to Star Wars ("you want magic swords and ghosts and little green wizards in your setting with robots and spaceships and clones with blasters?  No prob.")

Star Trek is full-blooded sci-fi, but "hard" it most certainly is not.  There are too many bullshit miracle devices, space gods, and wonky psychic abilities for that.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM

I wonder if these are the same folks who prefer Star Trek (very much a hard sci-fi setting) to Star Wars ("you want magic swords and ghosts and little green wizards in your setting with robots and spaceships and clones with blasters?  No prob.")

I like both Trek & Wars, but it makes me laugh when people call Star Trek hard sci-fi. It's not full-on future fantasy like Star Wars, but it's still far from the "hard sci-fi" side of the spectrum. (I consider it a spectrum rather than an either/or - running from Star Wars on one end to The Martian on the other.)

But yeah, Shadowrun is nearly to the Star Wars side of the spectrum, while (and I'm no expert on the lore) Cyberpunk seems to be about halfway between The Martian and Star Trek - solidly on the hard side of the scale.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM

I think both (any) cyberpunk system needs a good effects-based mechanic to let players (and GMs) design their own cyberware, programs, gear, drones, vehicles, etc. etc.  Something to emphasize evolving technology, defective knock offs of existing gear, and so on.  Shadowrun doubly so, as it has all those spells, Aspect powers, spirits, critters, and so on.

But I know the market rewards exception-based design (i.e. "buy this book if you want new stuff that we double-pinky swear is well playtested and balanced") and my desire for effects-based systems is not universal.

I tend to lean more towards the latter option with minor customization on a prebuilt chassis, though I can certainly see the draw of the freeform customization, they nearly always throw any semblance of balance out the window (and/or there are only a couple competitive builds). And I like the the peanut butter of the tactics mini-game mixed into my roleplaying game.

Said customization is sort of another layer on the class vs point-buy choice. I really like pure point-buy systems in theory, but in practice they are nearly always too messy & unbalanced. Though I do like a good hybrid of the two (which is the direction I went in the TTRPG I'm working on - besides a signature ability the classes are largely aimed point-buy, with different pools and the class/background somewhat dictating costs).

>Star Trek
>hard sci-fi

Man, I like ST but I wouldn't call it 'hard' sci-fi.

Alright, alright, alright.  I misspoke.

Sheesh.  It's like I said "2+2=5" in here.

If I admit I was wrong, can we focus on the...

Aw hell, it's the internet.  People will be jumping in on this years from now to chime in.

Might as well put it in your sig at this point

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 08, 2020, 03:21:26 PM
Alright, alright, alright.  I misspoke.

Sheesh.  It's like I said "2+2=5" in here.

If I admit I was wrong, can we focus on the...

Aw hell, it's the internet.  People will be jumping in on this years from now to chime in.

In order to get this thread back on track we'll have to angle the deflector dish to create a tachyon pulse that will transmogrify the crystalline structure of the temporally disjointed phraseology you used.

Quote from: KingCheops on December 08, 2020, 08:59:55 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 08, 2020, 03:21:26 PM
Alright, alright, alright.  I misspoke.

Sheesh.  It's like I said "2+2=5" in here.

If I admit I was wrong, can we focus on the...

Aw hell, it's the internet.  People will be jumping in on this years from now to chime in.

In order to get this thread back on track we'll have to angle the deflector dish to create a tachyon pulse that will transmogrify the crystalline structure of the temporally disjointed phraseology you used.

You win the internets.

Y'know. I do think the tone comparison is accurate.

If Shadowrun is like Star Wars, it has a mystical side. (Can't help it with the fantasy tropes) There's a fairy tale morality lurking underneath the mirror shades and smartguns.
If Cyberpunk is like Star Trek, it solves it's problems with the application of technology and competence in it.

Quote from: KingCheops on December 08, 2020, 08:59:55 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 08, 2020, 03:21:26 PM
Alright, alright, alright.  I misspoke.

Sheesh.  It's like I said "2+2=5" in here.

If I admit I was wrong, can we focus on the...

Aw hell, it's the internet.  People will be jumping in on this years from now to chime in.

In order to get this thread back on track we'll have to angle the deflector dish to create a tachyon pulse that will transmogrify the crystalline structure of the temporally disjointed phraseology you used.

Like putting too much air into a balloon!

https://comb.io/KE7ATM (relevant Futurama clip - couldn't figure out how to post it here)

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM

Personally, I've never understood the folks who can't get into Shadowrun because of it's one sentence sell ("dragons and magic and elves alongside cyberpunk").  If they hate fantasy tropes and themes in general, that'd be one thing, but I always have the impression there's something else.  I enjoy Shadowrun's basic premise (if not execution), so it's hard for me to see things the way others gamers do I guess.  Like it's -too- imaginative or something.

For me, cyberpunk is serious and bleak, whilst fantasy is more light-hearted.  Shadowrun's atmosphere is a bit too light and hopeful to scratch my cyberpunk itch.  On the other hand, if I consider Shadowrun its own thing rather than a part of cyberpunk, it's got a lot going for it.  I quite enjoy the fiction, both in the RPG and the novels.  In particular, I found the book about the children raised entirely on the net very moving, especially the rescue at the end.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 17, 2020, 11:26:02 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM

Personally, I've never understood the folks who can't get into Shadowrun because of it's one sentence sell ("dragons and magic and elves alongside cyberpunk").  If they hate fantasy tropes and themes in general, that'd be one thing, but I always have the impression there's something else.  I enjoy Shadowrun's basic premise (if not execution), so it's hard for me to see things the way others gamers do I guess.  Like it's -too- imaginative or something.

For me, cyberpunk is serious and bleak, whilst fantasy is more light-hearted.  Shadowrun's atmosphere is a bit too light and hopeful to scratch my cyberpunk itch.  On the other hand, if I consider Shadowrun its own thing rather than a part of cyberpunk, it's got a lot going for it.  I quite enjoy the fiction, both in the RPG and the novels.  In particular, I found the book about the children raised entirely on the net very moving, especially the rescue at the end.

That one stuck with me. Great short story.

I always preferred SR (up until 3e started it's nonsense, just like apparently everyone else).

I did read the first three novels when the game was released, and always used them as a sort of representation of how the world was supposed to appear/function.

All of my SR stuff ended up playing out something like a Noir Detective story, except the theme music was Joy Division.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on December 07, 2020, 04:23:15 PM

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on December 07, 2020, 01:49:15 PM
In terms of setting - isn't it mostly a matter of whether you want peanut butter (fantasy) in your chocolate (cyberpunk). Some people like the Reese's Cup that is Shadowrun, while others prefer to keep their Cyberpunk separate.

Pretty much. 

Personally, I've never understood the folks who can't get into Shadowrun because of it's one sentence sell ("dragons and magic and elves alongside cyberpunk").  If they hate fantasy tropes and themes in general, that'd be one thing, but I always have the impression there's something else.  I enjoy Shadowrun's basic premise (if not execution), so it's hard for me to see things the way others gamers do I guess.  Like it's -too- imaginative or something.

I wonder if these are the same folks who prefer Star Trek (very much a hard sci-fi setting) to Star Wars ("you want magic swords and ghosts and little green wizards in your setting with robots and spaceships and clones with blasters?  No prob.")

First off, Star Trek is most definitely NOT a hard science fiction setting. It is just as science fantasy as Star Wars is. You want to talk hard science fiction, then you are talking about The Martian or The Expanse.

My problem with the Shadowrun setting is that Cyberpunk with all of its nifty tech is primarily a hard science fiction genre. An application of Cyberpunk aesthetics to fantasy strikes me as more Dark Sun than anything else. Where I find the Shadowrun setting an abomination isn't because I hate fantasy (I dig Night's Edge, but vampires are definitely fantasy horror), it is because dragons and magic and elves are not hard science fiction. Since magic is capable of far more than science, there is no reason to use science or technology anymore once magic exists. The appearance of magic in a technological setting would bring about the slow abandonment of technology for magic, because magic has no limitations. The appeal of hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) is that you are bound by the physical laws as we know them and were taught in school. The difference between hard science fiction (Cyberpunk) and fantasy is that the former is playing tennis with the net up and the latter is playing tennis with the net down.

EDIT: Fuck dude, everybody else already ganged up on you about Star Trek. Sorry for the pile on.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on December 07, 2020, 05:20:51 PMStar Trek is full-blooded sci-fi, but "hard" it most certainly is not.  There are too many bullshit miracle devices, space gods, and wonky psychic abilities for that.

Id say Star Wars (before the Disney Empire) had a more consistent...world? Then Star Trek. In Star Trek what any piece of tech could do changed every minute. In Star Wars hyperspace was hyperspace.